Homework for a 5 year old - how much involvement needed.

"bizby40" wrote:


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40 says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...

It's not arbitrary. It's about integrating skills when they've been
mastered to some extent separately. There's a long way between having to have all
skills in place just to learn to *add*, vs. the whole thing being arbitrary.

We've been around this tree so many times that I'm having trouble
keeping straight exactly what we're talking about. I have already
agreed that marking down for incorrect spelling is stupid (esp. in
the early grades) and I don't think there should be any incorrect
answers as long as the child has described their thought processes
as well as they can. I just don't see getting the child to examine
those thought processes as inherently bad. I don't really see it
as hiding an English lesson in a math lesson either.

Because you simply can't understand that the reasoning process isn't
necessarily one that can be verbally described.

No, I can't. And I haven't yet seen an example here.

That's because this is a verbal forum, and we couldn't give you an
example because an example is not verbal. Banty has given a couple
where she had to draw a picture of a crystal as an answer.

grandma Rosalie

"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:11:31 -0500, "bizby40"
wrote:




It looks to me like a drafting technique rather than a summary or
abstract
of
the paper. I'd therefore agree that it has no place in the marking
pile.

The outline for a paper is *not* generally turned in. It's only turned
in
and graded in the English classes that are specifically teaching that
method of writing a paper.


I had to turn in outlines and was graded on it. That's how I learned to
spin up
outlines *after* having written the paper. (Else why would I do that?)

Me too, but only in my English composition classes. I never had to
turn one in on a science or humanities or computer paper.

My son is required to write an outline *first*, in class, then a first
draft, in
class. Both are looked over by the teacher.

And you don't think that's appropriate at his age? I wish, wish, wish
my nephew had written an outline before the paper he just turned in.
The final version that he sent me has no logical structure at all.

Bizby

Depends on individual style. My son and I both tend to simply write.
I dont find an outline necessary. I do use a computer, print out the
first as my rough draft and make notes. Same for child. it works fine.

Yes, but at 13, they are trying to teach them how to write a paper.
They don't know which kids are going to be able to just toss out
a perfect paper. So, when you are trying to teach the kids how
to write an organized and well-written paper, do you really think
it's appropriate just to give them the assignment and collect the
finished product several weeks (or even months) later with no
intermediate steps or feedback? And what about the kids that
can't just toss it out with not help? And what about the kids
that will just put off doing anything until the night before it's due?
And what about the kids whose parents are not intimately
involved with their children's homework and won't make sure that
they do it properly? And how is the teacher supposed to know
which child is which way?

I'm getting frustrated because time and time again in this thread,
I keep seeing, "But this isn't the perfect way to teach my child."
And I just don't see how public education can possibly make
sure that every assignment is perfect for every child.

Bizby

"bizby40" wrote:


"toto" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:02:04 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote:

I think dd herself may have asked and was told that the teacher didn't
have time to show it to her and that was reported back to me. Either
dd found out, or the teacher relented and showed her, or they moved on
to something else. I really didn't think it was that important in the
overall scheme of things. I knew she really could do the work
correctly and that was what I was interested in. I didn't really care
that the teacher was acting like some tin pot goddess.

This is a bit different. It may be that dd asked at an inconvenient
time. At any rate, I think that another student could have been
assigned to show her perhaps if that was the case. There is
no excuse for not showing her the method, but it may be that what
your dd reported was not even what was being said.

Yes, my thoughts exactly. I don't think my DD lies, but she
does see things through her own filter that doesn't always
reflect my perception of reality. I'm sure Rosalie's DD thought
the teacher was refusing to help her, but I'm not sure that the
teacher really was.

I'm pretty good I think at seeing when interpretations are being given
through a filter, and I don't think that was the case. If dd had come
to me and said that she was getting zeros on her homework and the
teacher had said she didn't have time to help her with the proper way
to show her work, I would not have left it at that. I would have
enquired further of her. I would have found out when she asked and
suggested that she ask at another time or ask if she could stay after
school for help.

But I must say, that even if I usually kept out of homework
(which I do for DD aged 10) I would get involved if my
child was frustrated to the point of having migraine headaches.

I think maybe that it was the migraines that turned the teacher
around, because she had to have medication at the start of the
migraine and so I had to get the school permission for her to have the
medication at school in the office. IIRC, after I had gone to the
doctor and gotten her diagnosed, and actually gone to school with the
medicine, the problem with the arithmetic homework stopped and so did
the migraines.

The teachers in this school weren't all bad - one of them alerted me
to the fact that dd#2 had some hearing loss which turned out (after I
took her to the doctor) to be due to hard wax plugs in her ear
(primarily the right ear), and once that was removed she could hear
fine.

And in the Maryland school my son started playing hooky after his
second grade teacher handed him one of his sister's projects and said,
I expect work like this from you. I don't know how I found that out -
perhaps from dd. But I never quite resolved this.


grandma Rosalie

In article , Rosalie B. says...

"bizby40" wrote:


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40 says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...

It's not arbitrary. It's about integrating skills when they've been
mastered to some extent separately. There's a long way between having to have
all
skills in place just to learn to *add*, vs. the whole thing being arbitrary.

We've been around this tree so many times that I'm having trouble
keeping straight exactly what we're talking about. I have already
agreed that marking down for incorrect spelling is stupid (esp. in
the early grades) and I don't think there should be any incorrect
answers as long as the child has described their thought processes
as well as they can. I just don't see getting the child to examine
those thought processes as inherently bad. I don't really see it
as hiding an English lesson in a math lesson either.

Because you simply can't understand that the reasoning process isn't
necessarily one that can be verbally described.

No, I can't. And I haven't yet seen an example here.

That's because this is a verbal forum, and we couldn't give you an
example because an example is not verbal. Banty has given a couple
where she had to draw a picture of a crystal as an answer.

Well, I *could have*, given time, come up with a point theory derivation of the
answer as an exercise after the fact.

But the point I'm trying to make is that I couldn't possibly verbalize what my
mental processes were to get to my answer. That's what Bizby is saying kids
have to be able to do.

Imaging little Kekule. Writing down "I saw snakes biting their tails". Doubt
it would be accepted in NY state

Banty (look it up - has to do with how he solved the structure of the benzene
molecule - he *drempt* it in imagery involving snakes biting their tails and
going into circles)

"Donna Metler" wrote in message
...
The standard I've heard is 5 minutes of written work per grade in school,
plus independent reading/being read to at 20 minutes a night. A
kindergartener or 1st grader should be able to stop after about 5 minutes
of
solid work. A 6th grader should be able to stop after about 30 minutes of
solid work.

DS is going to kindy next year. A magnet school I was looking into sounded
great in every way until it got to the homework policy. We have to sign a
contract. Kindergarteners get 15 minutes. 1st-3rd grade have 30 minutes to
an hour. 4th-6th grade get 45 minutes to 1 1/2 hours. Plus, they want us
to read a book every night. I took one look at it and said it was crazy.
For one thing, I didn't do that much homework until I was in high school.
Even then, it was self-directed homework most of the time. I mean, I did
the homework so that I could understand the material. It wasn't busy work
the teacher was handing out. This sounds like busy work to me. Even if it
weren't, it's too much. I only wish a 1st grader only got 5 minutes. As it
is, we're in the lottery just to see what happens, then I'll agonize some
more, but I'm leaning heavily into just sticking with our local school, all
becuase of the homework policy. But who knows? The local school may have
the same policy. I'll have to check it out.

"Caledonia" wrote in message
oups.com...
I know that in the not-so-distant past people used to 'leave work at
work' (and that some places would even break for summer heat, winter
holidays, and all sorts of things) -- but in all honesty, don't *a lot*
of people thesedays continue doing their jobs in the evening, weekend,
et cetera? It's what we've been modelling, whether we want to or not.

Thank goodness I have a job where that can't happen.

In article , bizby40 says...


"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:11:31 -0500, "bizby40"
wrote:




It looks to me like a drafting technique rather than a summary or
abstract
of
the paper. I'd therefore agree that it has no place in the marking
pile.

The outline for a paper is *not* generally turned in. It's only turned
in
and graded in the English classes that are specifically teaching that
method of writing a paper.


I had to turn in outlines and was graded on it. That's how I learned to
spin up
outlines *after* having written the paper. (Else why would I do that?)

Me too, but only in my English composition classes. I never had to
turn one in on a science or humanities or computer paper.

My son is required to write an outline *first*, in class, then a first
draft, in
class. Both are looked over by the teacher.

And you don't think that's appropriate at his age? I wish, wish, wish
my nephew had written an outline before the paper he just turned in.
The final version that he sent me has no logical structure at all.

Bizby

Depends on individual style. My son and I both tend to simply write.
I dont find an outline necessary. I do use a computer, print out the
first as my rough draft and make notes. Same for child. it works fine.

Yes, but at 13, they are trying to teach them how to write a paper.
They don't know which kids are going to be able to just toss out
a perfect paper. So, when you are trying to teach the kids how
to write an organized and well-written paper, do you really think
it's appropriate just to give them the assignment and collect the
finished product several weeks (or even months) later with no
intermediate steps or feedback? And what about the kids that
can't just toss it out with not help? And what about the kids
that will just put off doing anything until the night before it's due?
And what about the kids whose parents are not intimately
involved with their children's homework and won't make sure that
they do it properly? And how is the teacher supposed to know
which child is which way?

But this is going off to extremes again. If someone is not for outlines and
drafts to be handed in in steps each time, then it must be that they want to
just assign it and do nothing for weeks or months! Good grief, no wonder
others' ideas seem so crazy to you! If they dont' agree with *you*, then they
must think some nutso off-the-deep-end thing instead.

Actually, my son *is* one who really needs the outline, then the drafts. But if
a kid is clearly producing good results and the outlines aren't coming in, or
are coming in post-facto and/or reluctantly, maybe they shouldn't be emphasized
so much for that child. A day later, or a week later, or however is appropriate
given the classroom and assignment.

And how is the teacaher to know which child is which way? Well, frankly I *do*
expect the teacher to make these observations.

Banty

On 16 Nov 2005 09:31:20 -0800, Banty wrote:

Exactly. Moreover, there are SO many ways to visualize this problem in your
head. For example, if I were to do this problem in my head, I'd just
rearrange the numbers so that I was subtracting 35 from 80. I know that
works, but WHY it works would take me an age to explain. Why should I have
to bother when it's clear that I was arriving at the correct answer.

Yep.

Partly so the teacher knows that your reasoning was correct in terms
of how you rearranged the numbers. Kids do actually get *short cuts*
that give the right answer by making two errors that cancel each other
out or because a particular problem lends itself to a short cut that
doesn't generalize to other problems.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

toto wrote in
:

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:42:33 +0000 (UTC), enigma
wrote:

toto wrote in
m:

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:43:13 +0000 (UTC), enigma
wrote:

my 7th grade calculus teacher used to throw chalk at us
for
incorrect answers. he got angry & put his fist through
the wall once...

Fascinating. Where in NY did they teach calculus in 7th
grade? And when?

Chelmsford,Mass. i was in an accellerated 'division'. it
was
1965/66, because i was 11. that guy scared the crap out of
me (although i learned to sleep with my eyes open & pencil
moving in his class).
it may have been experimental, i don't know. the divisions
were declared illegal tracking by the time i was in 8th
grade. lee

Cool. I didn't know anywhere that experimented with this.
We took Algebra in 8th and Geometry in 9th, but nothing
more advanced than that in my little town in NY state.

i can't remember what i had for maths in 8th grade, but i had
Algebra 1 in 9th. the first quarter was great, but then the
teacher enlisted in the Army (or was drafted. were there draft
exceptions for teachers during VietNam?). the sub was a
misogynist idiot. he failed me because "girls can't do
advanced math". even though my work was correct, well, that
only proved i was cheating...
so, i had to repeat Algebra 1. i got the same teacher.
nothing my parents could do to get me out of the class. the
school said there was no other Algebra 1 class to move me to.
so he failed me again. so, i was supposed to repeat Algebra
1... with the same teacher. this time i threw a major hissy &
refused to leave the office until they gave me another
teacher. so, they graciously "allowed" me to take Geometry,
even though the "rules" said one had to complete Algebra 1
before taking Geometry (or one wouldn't understand theorems, i
guess). i aced Geometry, what a surprise.
then, since i had taken Geometry & passed, i was allowed to
take Algebra II. now, i admit to sleeping in that class. the
teacher knew i was sleeping, as he told the girl next to me to
*let* me sleep as long as i was passing... i loved his class.
he was an excellent teacher, but it was in a very overheated
room right after lunch...
ok, the way the curriculum was set up, i had to take Algebra
II to take Chemistry, which had to be taken before taking
Biology II... and they could not be taken concurrently. if you
have followed the Maths disaster, you see i was now in my
senior year. no Biology II.
no Biology II meant no chance of pre-Med, which meant no
veterinary school.
remember i had Calculus in 7th grade? none of this should
have ever happened!
any questions why i have a deep & enduring hatred of public
schools?
lee
--
war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength
1984-George Orwell

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Rosalie B.
says...

"bizby40" wrote:


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40 says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...

It's not arbitrary. It's about integrating skills when they've been
mastered to some extent separately. There's a long way between having
to have
all
skills in place just to learn to *add*, vs. the whole thing being
arbitrary.

We've been around this tree so many times that I'm having trouble
keeping straight exactly what we're talking about. I have already
agreed that marking down for incorrect spelling is stupid (esp. in
the early grades) and I don't think there should be any incorrect
answers as long as the child has described their thought processes
as well as they can. I just don't see getting the child to examine
those thought processes as inherently bad. I don't really see it
as hiding an English lesson in a math lesson either.

Because you simply can't understand that the reasoning process isn't
necessarily one that can be verbally described.

No, I can't. And I haven't yet seen an example here.

That's because this is a verbal forum, and we couldn't give you an
example because an example is not verbal. Banty has given a couple
where she had to draw a picture of a crystal as an answer.

Well, I *could have*, given time, come up with a point theory derivation
of the
answer as an exercise after the fact.

But the point I'm trying to make is that I couldn't possibly verbalize
what my
mental processes were to get to my answer. That's what Bizby is saying
kids
have to be able to do.

Perhaps if you had been practicing it from 1st grade on up, it
would have been easier for you. Perhaps if you were more
conscious of your thought processes you wouldn't have had
to wait for diving inspiration to come up with the answer.

This is a non-sequitor anyway, since this was a college class,
and you've never said that a verbal explanation was required,
and if I recall correctly, you actually said at one point that
you were not marked off for drawing the picture.

Imaging little Kekule. Writing down "I saw snakes biting their tails".
Doubt
it would be accepted in NY state

That was his inspiration, not his entire thought process. And I
can't see why someone would get marked down for sharing
a truthful story of their inspiration.

Bizby