Kids should work !!!

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:38:38 -0600, toto
wrote:

On 22 Nov 2003 10:55:24 -0800, (Kane)
wrote:

Note: I have a little boy in my class currently who looks angry
and hits. I talked to his dad at the Italian dinner and this
child is
basically very much given rules and expected to stick to them
and spanked when he doesn't. He is the child who hits others
and then turns around and tattles on them when they are not
following the rules.

And you generalize from this one kid to the whole nation?

This has been something I have consistently observed with the
children
in my class who are punished (especially those whose parents say
they
spank as discipline).

Very "scientific", Dorothy! ;-)

R R R R

Like your contributions are "scientific" R R R R

Aside from that in 30 years there have been many not just one child
like this.

A totally inexperienced, except for his own parent's vicous treatment
of him that he has supressed while glamorizing them, little grunt that
has never had any children, never worked with children, is trying to
tell folks with your experience that what they have seen is just a
product of their overheated anti spanking zeal.

I love it.

You worked in the classroom for 30 years and saw what you saw, and
I've worked since 1976 with the product of what you saw. That includes
5 years of direct treatment work with these victims of the sickness
Doan purpetuates, apologizes for, and lies about.

But never mind, you couldn't know what you are talking about, not with
his genius at debate to refute you.

Your direct experience isn't "scientific" enough for him....R R R R R

Kane

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On 22 Nov 2003 10:55:24 -0800, (Kane)
wrote:

Note: I have a little boy in my class currently who looks angry
and hits. I talked to his dad at the Italian dinner and this child is
basically very much given rules and expected to stick to them
and spanked when he doesn't. He is the child who hits others
and then turns around and tattles on them when they are not
following the rules.

And you generalize from this one kid to the whole nation?

This has been something I have consistently observed with the children
in my class who are punished (especially those whose parents say they
spank as discipline).

Very "scientific", Dorothy! ;-)

R R R R

Like your contributions are "scientific" R R R R

Aside from that in 30 years there have been many not just one child
like this.

That still doesn't make it any more scientific! Unless you can account
for everything that is going on in the children life, statement like
this is just opinion. Like I said, if spanking is as bad as the
anti-spanking zealotS make it to be, it would be very easy to demonstrate
the non-cp alernatives are better. So far, ALL the studies that looked
at both spanking and non-cp alternatives, like Straus & Mouradian (1998),
have found that the non-cp alternatives are no better than spanking.

Doan

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 10:23:00 -0800, Doan wrote:

Time outs used as punishment are not positive discipline.
Nor is lecturing or scolding or any of the *other* methods that
were studied.

In other words, your THEORY is unproven!

All social science conclusions are unproven, but the evidence is
clear if you look around you.

Are you saying 'who needs science'? ;-) If what you said is true,
then 99.99% of the parents in the WHOLE WORLD must be stupid. The
"evidence is clear" but they just don't see it, right Dorothy? ;-)

Doan
x

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:29:17 -0800, Doan wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On 22 Nov 2003 10:55:24 -0800,
(Kane)
wrote:

Note: I have a little boy in my class currently who looks
angry
and hits. I talked to his dad at the Italian dinner and this
child is
basically very much given rules and expected to stick to them
and spanked when he doesn't. He is the child who hits
others
and then turns around and tattles on them when they are not
following the rules.

And you generalize from this one kid to the whole nation?

This has been something I have consistently observed with the
children
in my class who are punished (especially those whose parents
say they
spank as discipline).

Very "scientific", Dorothy! ;-)

R R R R

Like your contributions are "scientific" R R R R

Aside from that in 30 years there have been many not just one child
like this.

That still doesn't make it any more scientific! Unless you can
account
for everything that is going on in the children life, statement like
this is just opinion.

If people sat around accumulating data for scientific analysis before
acting humans would have been extinct long ago.

Like I said, if spanking is as bad as the
anti-spanking zealotS make it to be,

It's worse then most of them even know. I've worked with the result.

it would be very easy to demonstrate
the non-cp alernatives are better.

It would be if you were here and I could take you by the back of your
skinny little neck and march you through some juvenile lock ups and
adolescent and younger treatment centers.

So far, ALL the studies that looked
at both spanking and non-cp alternatives, like Straus & Mouradian
(1998),
have found that the non-cp alternatives are no better than spanking.

That is because they only looked at punishment alternatives. Hence the
studies are invalid on the claim that "alternatives" don't work.

My alternatives work, and even where punishment models are limited
enough to make the parenting more non-punitive there are excellent
results.


Doan


Full of **** as usual, Doan. Why not let The Plant tap off a little
and reduce your pressure?....... R R R R

Kane

On 22 Nov 2003, Kane wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:38:38 -0600, toto
wrote:

On 22 Nov 2003 10:55:24 -0800, (Kane)
wrote:

Note: I have a little boy in my class currently who looks angry
and hits. I talked to his dad at the Italian dinner and this
child is
basically very much given rules and expected to stick to them
and spanked when he doesn't. He is the child who hits others
and then turns around and tattles on them when they are not
following the rules.

And you generalize from this one kid to the whole nation?

This has been something I have consistently observed with the
children
in my class who are punished (especially those whose parents say
they
spank as discipline).

Very "scientific", Dorothy! ;-)

R R R R

Like your contributions are "scientific" R R R R

Aside from that in 30 years there have been many not just one child
like this.

A totally inexperienced, except for his own parent's vicous treatment
of him that he has supressed while glamorizing them, little grunt that
has never had any children, never worked with children, is trying to
tell folks with your experience that what they have seen is just a
product of their overheated anti spanking zeal.

I love it.

You worked in the classroom for 30 years and saw what you saw, and
I've worked since 1976 with the product of what you saw. That includes
5 years of direct treatment work with these victims of the sickness
Doan purpetuates, apologizes for, and lies about.

But never mind, you couldn't know what you are talking about, not with
his genius at debate to refute you.

Your direct experience isn't "scientific" enough for him....R R R R R

Kane

So now you are the "expert". Tell me, Kane, what kind of parenting
did you receive to teach you that it is right to call other women
"smelly ****"? I think is "sickness" is in your head. ;-)

The choice for me is simple, if you are right then 99.99% of the parents
in the world, accross cultures, accross religions,
accross races and times, are wrong. Or could it be, that parents
know their own children better than you? ;-)

Doan

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:47:27 -0800, Doan wrote:

On 22 Nov 2003, Kane wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:38:38 -0600, toto
wrote:

On 22 Nov 2003 10:55:24 -0800,
(Kane)
wrote:

Note: I have a little boy in my class currently who looks
angry
and hits. I talked to his dad at the Italian dinner and this
child is
basically very much given rules and expected to stick to them
and spanked when he doesn't. He is the child who hits
others
and then turns around and tattles on them when they are not
following the rules.

And you generalize from this one kid to the whole nation?

This has been something I have consistently observed with the
children
in my class who are punished (especially those whose parents
say
they
spank as discipline).

Very "scientific", Dorothy! ;-)

R R R R

Like your contributions are "scientific" R R R R

Aside from that in 30 years there have been many not just one
child
like this.

A totally inexperienced, except for his own parent's vicous
treatment
of him that he has supressed while glamorizing them, little grunt
that
has never had any children, never worked with children, is trying
to
tell folks with your experience that what they have seen is just a
product of their overheated anti spanking zeal.

I love it.

You worked in the classroom for 30 years and saw what you saw, and
I've worked since 1976 with the product of what you saw. That
includes
5 years of direct treatment work with these victims of the sickness
Doan purpetuates, apologizes for, and lies about.

But never mind, you couldn't know what you are talking about, not
with
his genius at debate to refute you.

Your direct experience isn't "scientific" enough for him....R R R R
R

Kane

So now you are the "expert". Tell me, Kane, what kind of parenting
did you receive to teach you that it is right to call other women
"smelly ****"?

Righteous parenting that tells me not to suffer fools and allow the
world to be by little sick children such as you and The Columbine.

I think is "sickness" is in your head. ;-)

I think is sickness in you and your childish repetitious ranting.

The choice for me is simple, if you are right then 99.99% of the
parents
in the world, accross cultures, accross religions,
accross races and times, are wrong.

The choice for you is based on misinformation. Many cultures are
shocked at the idea of striking or even punishing a child.

I am familiar with most that do punish and the sicknesss they
inculcate in their children by so doing.

For instance:

http://tinyurl.com/w6cj

"Parents' Sacrifice and Guilt Induction
Many Asian-American parents do make unbelievable sacrifices for their
children. Especially among the newly-immigrated families, quite a few
were professionals in their home countries, and they could only take
entry level jobs in this country and had to support their children's
education in every way possible. However, they often use guilt
induction by urging their children to consider the negative impact of
their low grades on other family members. Very often Asian-American
students find it so difficult to please their parents that the
psychological pressure results in terrible test anxiety. Many
Asian-American students have apparent physical symptoms before and
after tests (Pang, 1990). Their White classmates would think these
Asian-Americans are paranoiac when they keep discussing with their
White classmates about the test. They would say, "Give me a break.
It's over and I don't want to talk about it." The worst part of the
guilt induction is that the complex interpersonal process transforms
over a period of time into an intrapersonal process. The need for
approval through doing well becomes internalized and children are
typically unaware of the process (Pang, 1990).

Some Asian-American parents punish their children for culturally
unacceptable behaviors. Failure to meet parental expectation for
academic achievement is, sometimes, considered a legitimate reason for
punishment, even harsh punishment (Morrow & McBride, 1988). Children
have to face ridicule and rejection. Forms of punishment include
isolating the child from the family social life and verbal abuse.
Children are often shamed and scolded for the "loss of face" which
results from their failure to fulfill the primary obligation to the
family."

This is not a culture free of crime, as you might note. As with the
Laotian, and Cambodian, all whom practice spanking and other
punishments. I understand most Arab countries also use physical and
other punishments rather liberally.

I think I can understand your statement aligning with the majority and
being unwilling to explore other possibilities. It's very likely
culturally induced.

You will even champion the roots of our violent past to not be seen as
in opposition, different from the mass.

But also in SE Asia, Malay peninsula to be precise live the Semai, a
people that rarely ever strike or even force their children to do
anything.

http://www.noogenesis.com/malama/bood.html

Notice the outcomes of treating children with dignity. And no, I'm not
going to argue that 99% of us humans don't spank...I'm just saying the
time passing for many things that 99% once did and believed in as
fervently as you spanking.

But then, though I see a lot of Arab world child abuse through
punishment I also see a great deal of the same folks who not only
don't use physical punishment much, even some Muslims teach that
punishment is inappropriate parenting: (this is from that same Malay
peninsula I believe)

http://islamic-world.net/mkc/e_book3.htm

And then there are the these Christians that believe in what their
faith actually teaches:

http://nospank.net/cnpindex.htm


The Crowell reprot tells the truth about the Swedish experiment, many
decades long (as opposed to the lies that suggest it's a recent event)
And the actual outcomes, not the desparate propaganda of spanking
nations that lie about Sweden, and the few equally desperate Swedes
that so badly miss spanking.

http://nospank.net/crowell.htm

You also seem to have forgotten, in your 99% figure, the nations that
have banned spanking and seen the improvements that come with ending
brutality toward children in the name of discipline.

http://www.stophitting.com/laws/legalReform.php

These nations do not spank their children: Sweden, Finland, Denmark,
Germany, Italy, Norway, Austria, Cyprus, Croatia, Latvia, Iceland,
Israel.

Or could it be, that parents
know their own children better than you? ;-)

So I would have to answer "no" there are 11 nations, and many cultures
that know their children as well or possibly even better than I do.
The remainder still have something to learn. As do you. When you have
your own children you will see.

You come out of a culture that is known for the use of physical
punishment. And that is changing as well. But your defense is
understandable.

Apparently you are bothered by that, no?

Doan

yawn Now it's waaaay past my bedtime so you can just stomp your
little foot and beat your little pointy head against the wall and wait
for me to get back to you when I feel the need to educate again.

Have a nice day,

Kane

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:47:27 -0800, Doan wrote:

On 22 Nov 2003, Kane wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:38:38 -0600, toto
wrote:

On 22 Nov 2003 10:55:24 -0800,
(Kane)
wrote:

Note: I have a little boy in my class currently who looks
angry
and hits. I talked to his dad at the Italian dinner and this
child is
basically very much given rules and expected to stick to them
and spanked when he doesn't. He is the child who hits
others
and then turns around and tattles on them when they are not
following the rules.

And you generalize from this one kid to the whole nation?

This has been something I have consistently observed with the
children
in my class who are punished (especially those whose parents
say
they
spank as discipline).

Very "scientific", Dorothy! ;-)

R R R R

Like your contributions are "scientific" R R R R

Aside from that in 30 years there have been many not just one
child
like this.

A totally inexperienced, except for his own parent's vicous
treatment
of him that he has supressed while glamorizing them, little grunt
that
has never had any children, never worked with children, is trying
to
tell folks with your experience that what they have seen is just a
product of their overheated anti spanking zeal.

I love it.

You worked in the classroom for 30 years and saw what you saw, and
I've worked since 1976 with the product of what you saw. That
includes
5 years of direct treatment work with these victims of the sickness
Doan purpetuates, apologizes for, and lies about.

But never mind, you couldn't know what you are talking about, not
with
his genius at debate to refute you.

Your direct experience isn't "scientific" enough for him....R R R R
R

Kane

So now you are the "expert".

I consider classroom teachers with 30 years experience and myself,
with many years of mental health work directly with children and even
more with their parents as qualified as expert, yes. I've been at it
continuously since 1976 except for a 5 year trip to your ancestoral
homeland, and other points East.

And YOUR experience?

Tell me, Kane, what kind of parenting
did you receive

Wonderful. Sensible. **** detecting skills par excellance.

to teach you that it is right to call other women
"smelly ****"?

Righteous parenting that tells me not to suffer fools and allow the
world to be destroyed by little sick children such as you and The
Columbine.

I think is "sickness" is in your head. ;-)

I think is sickness in you ass and your childish repetitious ranting.

The choice for me is simple, if you are right then 99.99% of the
parents
in the world, accross cultures, accross religions,
accross races and times, are wrong.

The choice for you is based on misinformation. Many cultures are
shocked at the idea of striking or even punishing a child.

I am familiar with most that do punish and the sicknesss they
inculcate in their children by so doing.

For instance:

http://tinyurl.com/w6cj

"Parents' Sacrifice and Guilt Induction
Many Asian-American parents do make unbelievable sacrifices for their
children. Especially among the newly-immigrated families, quite a few
were professionals in their home countries, and they could only take
entry level jobs in this country and had to support their children's
education in every way possible. However, they often use guilt
induction by urging their children to consider the negative impact of
their low grades on other family members. Very often Asian-American
students find it so difficult to please their parents that the
psychological pressure results in terrible test anxiety. Many
Asian-American students have apparent physical symptoms before and
after tests (Pang, 1990). Their White classmates would think these
Asian-Americans are paranoiac when they keep discussing with their
White classmates about the test. They would say, "Give me a break.
It's over and I don't want to talk about it." The worst part of the
guilt induction is that the complex interpersonal process transforms
over a period of time into an intrapersonal process. The need for
approval through doing well becomes internalized and children are
typically unaware of the process (Pang, 1990).

Some Asian-American parents punish their children for culturally
unacceptable behaviors. Failure to meet parental expectation for
academic achievement is, sometimes, considered a legitimate reason for
punishment, even harsh punishment (Morrow & McBride, 1988). Children
have to face ridicule and rejection. Forms of punishment include
isolating the child from the family social life and verbal abuse.
Children are often shamed and scolded for the "loss of face" which
results from their failure to fulfill the primary obligation to the
family."

This is not a culture free of crime, as you might note. As with the
Laotian, and Cambodian, all whom practice spanking and other
punishments. I understand most Arab countries also use physical and
other punishments rather liberally.

I think I can understand your statement aligning with the majority and
being unwilling to explore other possibilities. It's very likely
culturally induced.

You will even champion the roots of our violent past to not be seen as
in opposition, different from the mass.

But also in SE Asia, Malay peninsula to be precise live the Semai, a
people that rarely ever strike or even force their children to do
anything.

http://www.noogenesis.com/malama/bood.html

Notice the outcomes of treating children with dignity. And no, I'm not
going to argue that 99% of us humans don't spank...I'm just saying the
time passing for many things that 99% once did and believed in as
fervently as you spanking.

But then, though I see a lot of Arab world child abuse through
punishment I also see a great deal of the same folks who not only
don't use physical punishment much, even some Muslims teach that
punishment is inappropriate parenting: (this is from that same Malay
peninsula I believe)

http://islamic-world.net/mkc/e_book3.htm

And then there are the these Christians that believe in what their
faith actually teaches:

http://nospank.net/cnpindex.htm


The Crowell reprot tells the truth about the Swedish experiment, many
decades long (as opposed to the lies that suggest it's a recent event)
And the actual outcomes, not the desparate propaganda of spanking
nations that lie about Sweden, and the few equally desperate Swedes
that so badly miss spanking.

http://nospank.net/crowell.htm

You also seem to have forgotten, in your 99% figure, the nations that
have banned spanking and seen the improvements that come with ending
brutality toward children in the name of discipline.

http://www.stophitting.com/laws/legalReform.php

These nations do not spank their children: Sweden, Finland, Denmark,
Germany, Italy, Norway, Austria, Cyprus, Croatia, Latvia, Iceland,
Israel.

Or could it be, that parents
know their own children better than you? ;-)

So I would have to answer "no" there are 11 nations, and many cultures
that know their children as well or possibly even better than I do.
The remainder still have something to learn. As do you. When you have
your own children you will see.

You come out of a culture that is known for the use of physical
punishment. And that is changing as well. But your defense is
understandable.

Apparently you are bothered by that, no?

Doan

yawn Now it's waaaay past my bedtime so you can just stomp your
little foot and beat your little pointy head against the wall and wait
for me to get back to you when I feel the need to educate again.

And by the way, you once MORE didn't respond to my actual questions
and claims.

Have a nice day,

Kane

On 23 Nov 2003 17:38:04 GMT, (Daniel) wrote:

doan wrote:

. Like I said, if spanking is as bad as the
anti-spanking zealotS make it to be, it would be very easy to
demonstrate
the non-cp alernatives are better. So far, ALL the studies that
looked
at both spanking and non-cp alternatives, like Straus & Mouradian
(1998),
have found that the non-cp alternatives are no better than spanking.

Doan



how about

http://www.gordontraining.com/FamilyResearch.asp

Aw shucks Daniel. You went and spoiled it. I have been saving this for
a long time, watching the doofi on this ng bury themselves deeper and
deeper, Doan among the Deepest Doofi of all.

Now the fun is over. Even their beloved Baumrind agrees with the
non-punitive methods PET espouses and teaches.

The outcomes for improved IQ should really knock the idiots socks off,
let alone the social skills areas.

But then I can see it coming even as I diddle the keys, the grumpy
little child haters will be screaming, despite the clear caveats about
methodology that opens the page followed by those studies the are
identified clearly as meeting or not...and the HIGH level outcomes
with good outcomes that are the product of MORE RIGOROUS STUDIES THAT
MEET TOUGHER RESEARCH CRITERIS....all we are going to hear is:

"It's propaganda"

R R R R sure it is, accurate information that kicks you all in the
butt, you silly little turds. And it's information that I personally
put to the test over the years and saw the effective results myself.

Thanks again, Daniel.

Kane

Daniel Roach Colindale, London, England
Music lover, Simpsons fan, Playstation owner and Amiga guru

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, CJS wrote:


And for the real word, children should learn that society will reward them
for good behaviors and PUNISH them for bad behaviors. It is just
common-sense.

Is it necessary for the parent to administer punishment ?
Sometime, YES!

To help my son take responsibility for his own actions I believe in letting
him suffer the natural consequences.

Good for you. You have every right to do what you see fit.

I don't have to punish him. If what he is doing is wrong I explain to him
why. If he does it anyway then he will suffer the consequences.

Why does he have to suffer the consequences?

Naturally one must avoid them actually seriously hurting themselves, but I
want my son to understand why, not to blindly obey because he fears
retribution.

Good for you.

The result is that he behaves well because he believes it is the right way
to behave and develops self discipline.

Then you have done your job as a parent.

Doan

On 25 Nov 2003, Ignoramus3100 wrote:

In article , Doan wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, CJS wrote:


And for the real word, children should learn that society will reward them
for good behaviors and PUNISH them for bad behaviors. It is just
common-sense.

Is it necessary for the parent to administer punishment ?
Sometime, YES!

punishment does not equal to beating.

Who said anything about "BEATING"???? ;-)

Examples: taking away favorite toys, not talking to the kids,
grounding, etc etc.

And you will be surprised if you read Straus & Mouradian (1998) that these
non-cp alternatives "correlated" to antisocial problems MORE strongly
than spankings. As Dr. Larzelere said:

"Alternative disciplinary responses predicted antisocial problems 10 times
more strongly than did non-impulsive physical punishment, and they
predicted child impulsivity 3 times more strongly. No one would use such
evidence to conclude that reasoning, time out, and/or privilege removal
are counterproductive."

Doan

i

To help my son take responsibility for his own actions I believe in letting
him suffer the natural consequences.

Good for you. You have every right to do what you see fit.

I don't have to punish him. If what he is doing is wrong I explain to him
why. If he does it anyway then he will suffer the consequences.

Why does he have to suffer the consequences?

Naturally one must avoid them actually seriously hurting themselves, but I
want my son to understand why, not to blindly obey because he fears
retribution.

Good for you.

The result is that he behaves well because he believes it is the right way
to behave and develops self discipline.

Then you have done your job as a parent.

Doan