Mother, grandmother on trial for not getting help for burned toddler

G That other story about how caseworkers used
G unconstitutional FEAR TACTICS to make people
G cooperate has nothing to do with the
G atmosphere of trust either!

BW I would no more excuse a case worker for
BW instilling fear in clients than I would a
BW parent who didn't take their child to the
BW doctor when they were obviously in need
BW of care! But that's not the point of this
BW particular thread.

G You want to discuss the Medical Neglect
G but exclude the state of mind or motive?

DS What does the state of mind have to do with
DS allowing their child to die an excruciating death?

Goes to intent.

DS Does someone not get a ticket for going thru a red
DS light because they weren't driving in the right state of mind?

You're comparing the death of a child to a traffic ticket?

BW Do you think it was appropriate for the
BW caretakers of this child to neglect
BW to provide proper medical treatment??

G Nope.

BW Do you think that fear of CPS is a reasonable
BW excuse for the death of this child?

G Excuse? Nope.
G Explanation and exhibit of the level of
G fear that people have of CPS? Yes.

DS Chances are their attny told them to
DS blame the fact that they didn't seek proper
DS medical attention on their fear of CPS.

You say that as if people aren't afraid of CPS.

"Greegor" wrote in message
ups.com...
G That other story about how caseworkers used
G unconstitutional FEAR TACTICS to make people
G cooperate has nothing to do with the
G atmosphere of trust either!

BW I would no more excuse a case worker for
BW instilling fear in clients than I would a
BW parent who didn't take their child to the
BW doctor when they were obviously in need
BW of care! But that's not the point of this
BW particular thread.

G You want to discuss the Medical Neglect
G but exclude the state of mind or motive?

DS What does the state of mind have to do with
DS allowing their child to die an excruciating death?

Goes to intent.

DS Does someone not get a ticket for going thru a red
DS light because they weren't driving in the right state of mind?

You're comparing the death of a child to a traffic ticket?

BW Do you think it was appropriate for the
BW caretakers of this child to neglect
BW to provide proper medical treatment??

G Nope.

BW Do you think that fear of CPS is a reasonable
BW excuse for the death of this child?

G Excuse? Nope.
G Explanation and exhibit of the level of
G fear that people have of CPS? Yes.

DS Chances are their attny told them to
DS blame the fact that they didn't seek proper
DS medical attention on their fear of CPS.

You say that as if people aren't afraid of CPS.

You say THAT as if people don't abuse and neglect their kids.

"LK" wrote in message
...

"dragonsgirl" wrote in message
et...

"Greegor" wrote in message
ups.com...
G That other story about how caseworkers used
G unconstitutional FEAR TACTICS to make people
G cooperate has nothing to do with the
G atmosphere of trust either!

BW I would no more excuse a case worker for
BW instilling fear in clients than I would a
BW parent who didn't take their child to the
BW doctor when they were obviously in need
BW of care! But that's not the point of this
BW particular thread.

G You want to discuss the Medical Neglect
G but exclude the state of mind or motive?

DS What does the state of mind have to do with
DS allowing their child to die an excruciating death?

Goes to intent.

DS Does someone not get a ticket for going thru a red
DS light because they weren't driving in the right state of mind?

You're comparing the death of a child to a traffic ticket?

BW Do you think it was appropriate for the
BW caretakers of this child to neglect
BW to provide proper medical treatment??

G Nope.

BW Do you think that fear of CPS is a reasonable
BW excuse for the death of this child?

G Excuse? Nope.
G Explanation and exhibit of the level of
G fear that people have of CPS? Yes.

DS Chances are their attny told them to
DS blame the fact that they didn't seek proper
DS medical attention on their fear of CPS.

You say that as if people aren't afraid of CPS.

You say THAT as if people don't abuse and neglect their kids.


You say that as if everybody who is afraid of CPS does.

I'm under no delusions, Lk.
It happens.
And it doesn't.
Sometimes it is merely misunderstanding on the part of parents as to what
does, and does not constitute abuse.
Sometimes it's outright malicious abuse or neglect for various reasons.
Sometimes it can be remedied.
Sometimes it can't.
There are no absolutes when you are talking about child abuse and neglect.
The thread here deals with two women who neglected a child to death and
claim it is because of the mother's fear of child protective services.
I suppose the thought never crossed her mind, in three weeks time, that her
child was not getting better and 'oh my, look how much worse things are now
and what is going to happen when I HAVE to take him to the doctor?'.
And still, she didn't take him to the doctor.
If you can allow your child to be in that kind of pain and agony for THREE
WEEKS, your 'fear' is for your own neck, and nothing else.
That's selfish, that's abusive, and that's why this child died.
Mom and grandma didn't want to be hauled off to jail and have to face DFS.
Better they should hide the injuries for three weeks while the little boy
suffered so as to avoid prosecution just a little longer, eh?
Now look what they got, possible life in prison sentences, NONE of the
children in the home, and the weight of a dead baby on their minds.
I'd go to prison in a second before I let a child...any child, suffer the
way that little boy had to have suffered.
And I'd do it gladly.

On Oct 25, 3:25 am, "LK" wrote:

Not much different from the CPS worker who botches an investigation by
making a wrong decision resulting in a tragic consiquence. Except you'd
still blame the parents.

She wouldn't blame the parents if CPS made the error.

The majority of people on asCPS are here because CPS made an error in
their case... and THEY prevailed OVER CPS anyway.

CPS can be and are beaten at their own game IF the family plays the
game better than CPS.

CPS is as inept at defending their erroneous decisions as they are at
making them.

I've personally had them reverse every (5) founded decision they made
against me... and helped get reversed dozens of decisions made against
other people.

"LK" wrote in message
...

"dragonsgirl" wrote in message
. ..

"LK" wrote in message
...

"dragonsgirl" wrote in message
et...

"Greegor" wrote in message
ups.com...
G That other story about how caseworkers used
G unconstitutional FEAR TACTICS to make people
G cooperate has nothing to do with the
G atmosphere of trust either!

BW I would no more excuse a case worker for
BW instilling fear in clients than I would a
BW parent who didn't take their child to the
BW doctor when they were obviously in need
BW of care! But that's not the point of this
BW particular thread.

G You want to discuss the Medical Neglect
G but exclude the state of mind or motive?

DS What does the state of mind have to do with
DS allowing their child to die an excruciating death?

Goes to intent.

DS Does someone not get a ticket for going thru a red
DS light because they weren't driving in the right state of mind?

You're comparing the death of a child to a traffic ticket?

BW Do you think it was appropriate for the
BW caretakers of this child to neglect
BW to provide proper medical treatment??

G Nope.

BW Do you think that fear of CPS is a reasonable
BW excuse for the death of this child?

G Excuse? Nope.
G Explanation and exhibit of the level of
G fear that people have of CPS? Yes.

DS Chances are their attny told them to
DS blame the fact that they didn't seek proper
DS medical attention on their fear of CPS.

You say that as if people aren't afraid of CPS.

You say THAT as if people don't abuse and neglect their kids.


You say that as if everybody who is afraid of CPS does.

I'm under no delusions, Lk.
It happens.
And it doesn't.
Sometimes it is merely misunderstanding on the part of parents as to what
does, and does not constitute abuse.
Sometimes it's outright malicious abuse or neglect for various reasons.
Sometimes it can be remedied.
Sometimes it can't.
There are no absolutes when you are talking about child abuse and
neglect.
The thread here deals with two women who neglected a child to death and
claim it is because of the mother's fear of child protective services.
I suppose the thought never crossed her mind, in three weeks time, that
her child was not getting better and 'oh my, look how much worse things
are now and what is going to happen when I HAVE to take him to the
doctor?'.
And still, she didn't take him to the doctor.
If you can allow your child to be in that kind of pain and agony for
THREE WEEKS, your 'fear' is for your own neck, and nothing else.
That's selfish, that's abusive, and that's why this child died.
Mom and grandma didn't want to be hauled off to jail and have to face
DFS.
Better they should hide the injuries for three weeks while the little boy
suffered so as to avoid prosecution just a little longer, eh?
Now look what they got, possible life in prison sentences, NONE of the
children in the home, and the weight of a dead baby on their minds.
I'd go to prison in a second before I let a child...any child, suffer the
way that little boy had to have suffered.
And I'd do it gladly.


I'm not disagreeing with you. The kid was denied medical attention and is
now dead because of it. And yes he probably suffered.

That doesn't change the fact that the fear of loosing a child is a
powerful deterrent.

Apparently it's not in this case.
Not only did the mom lose one child, but at least two more.

What does fear do? It causes the person experiencing the fear
to avoid that which they fear. For example, I know a guy who is so afraid
of heights that he won't get up on a 3 foot step ladder. A person who is
afraid of spiders will avoid spiders. So why is it so irrational to fear
CPS or fear having a child taken away? And why is it so irrational that a
parent would want to avoid them? I can see where it would make a
parent think twice before bringing a kid to see a mandated reporter like a
doctor.

It's not unreasonable to expect that someone would avoid that which they
fear.
For instance: I am afraid of deep water, because I cannot swim. I almost
drowned twice in my lifetime.
Even with a life jacket on I still sweat at the thought of deep water.
That would NOT prevent me from jumping into a lake to at least TRY to save
my drowning child. (but I did make sure that my kids learned how to swim so
I don't think I'd have to be concerned about that, it's just an example).
Everyone has fears, but there are times when it's reasonable to expect that
a person would face their fears when the life of their child depends on it.
This is one of those cases.


This case is a little different, of course. But you are claiming that she
let her kid die to save her own neck. How do you know what was going on
in her head durring all of this?

Because she said what was going on in her head during all this:

" "I was told CPS would take my child and I would also get put in jail,"
Ms. Polk said in her statement. "I had been told this by friends and
family members"

She probably thought that she was doing the
right thing by treating the burns. Maybe she thought that she was
protecting her kid from CPS. She probably didn't think that the kid would
die. So it probably wasn't that her intent was malicous, as you say, it
was that she was dangerously stupid bringing about a tragic consiquence.

She obviously thought she was doing what needed to be done to keep the
incident from being found by doctors who would call CPS and she would be put
in jail and they would take her child. She says so.


Not much different from the CPS worker who botches an investigation by
making a wrong decision resulting in a tragic consiquence. Except you'd
still blame the parents.

No, that's where you're wrong.
There are three sets of defense lines in preventing the abuse or negelct of
a child.
1. The parents
When that fails I expect that the second line will step up to bat
2. Family members
When they also fail, I expect that the third line will step up
3. The state
And when all three fail the blame falls to all.

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 05:58:12 -0700, Dan Sullivan
wrote:

[snip]

==CPS is as inept at defending their erroneous decisions as they are at
==making them.
==
==I've personally had them reverse every (5) founded decision they made
==against me... and helped get reversed dozens of decisions made against
==other people.

Five "founded" decisions against you?

Clearly you are a prime candidate for
father-of-the-year.

Ever consider giving parenting lessons?

-IG

--
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