Terrible 5's?

My oldest DD has recently turned 5. She's also recently turned into demon
child. Ok, not really. But our biggest concern right now is that she just
doesn't care about anything. She doesn't take care of her things, or my
things for that matter, doesn't listen, doesn't care when she's punished,
etc. She likes to lock herself in the bathroom and play in the water, so
now she's not allowed to lock the bathroom door. Today she got into our box
of craft stuff (that was high up in the garage) and dumped glitter
everywhere. We've tried time outs. I've tried taking her toys away. I
really don't know what else to punish her with, or how else to get the point
across. Any ideas?
TIA,
Denise




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"Denise" wrote in message
...
| My oldest DD has recently turned 5. She's also recently turned into demon
| child. Ok, not really. But our biggest concern right now is that she
just
| doesn't care about anything. She doesn't take care of her things, or my
| things for that matter, doesn't listen, doesn't care when she's punished,
| etc. She likes to lock herself in the bathroom and play in the water, so
| now she's not allowed to lock the bathroom door. Today she got into our
box
| of craft stuff (that was high up in the garage) and dumped glitter
| everywhere. We've tried time outs. I've tried taking her toys away. I
| really don't know what else to punish her with, or how else to get the
point
| across. Any ideas?
| TIA,
| Denise
|
|


Our niece just turned 4. And has had a few behavioral problems herself. This
is because she has been shuffled from my mothers house, to living with my
sister. Now, we have full custody of her (My reason for being away from NG's
so much) and things are slowly starting to get worked out.

I could go on about the neglect and behavior of her, but I will not. Ok, I
will. She has had no doctor visit or shots or anything since 2001. Her 2
year well child visit. Just an example. Thankfully though, our insurance
will be covering her starting Jan 1, and we have an appointment for her Jan
9th with Alegra's pediatrician.

But I digress. We too tried time outs. Those just seemed to make her cry and
get mad. So, I developed a 3 tier (ok, maybe 4 tier) form of punishment.

1. Time Outs - She sits on the couch with her hands in her lap. She is
allowed to watch tv, but is not allowed to talk or cry or play.

2. Time Outs In her bedroom - Same as above, but with her hands in her lap
sitting on her bed. Also, not allowed to play.

3. Is the same as 2, but if she cries, she has to have her bedroom door
closed.

Usually, time outs last no more than 5 minutes (if that long) and are
somewhat productive.

Now comes the best. and in my opinion, the funniest.

4. Grounding. Yup. thats right. Grounding a 4 year old. Basically, this is a
lesser form of a time out, but works wonderfully! She gets grounded to her
bedroom. She is allowed to play with her toys, but she is NOT allowed to
come out of her room for about 20 minutes.

Ok, so maybe it wouldn't work for everyone, but for Kris, this is a great
punishment. And it really is nothing lol. But for some reason, being
grounded bothers her more and has more effect than any time outs.

I assume that it is along the same lines as "training a dog" (Sorry for this
analogy before I start it lol)

When training a dog, if s/he does something bad, you ignore her/him for a
few minutes. Thus denying your attention.

This seems to have the same effect on Kristine. Keep in mind, I am in no way
neglecting her any attention. But just *calling* it grounding does effect
her. Therefore causing her to behave.

If she feels like "grounding" is a worse punishment than time outs and the
desired effect is there. Then I see no harm.

but, YMMV


--

LES!

Daddie to Alegra Lee. May 25th 2003!
"Daddie's Little Diva"

To send me an email, please remove your hat
YourHatDaddie at bonbon.net

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:03:01 -0800, "Denise"
wrote:

My oldest DD has recently turned 5. She's also recently turned into demon
child. Ok, not really. But our biggest concern right now is that she just
doesn't care about anything. She doesn't take care of her things, or my
things for that matter, doesn't listen, doesn't care when she's punished,
etc. She likes to lock herself in the bathroom and play in the water, so
now she's not allowed to lock the bathroom door. Today she got into our box
of craft stuff (that was high up in the garage) and dumped glitter
everywhere. We've tried time outs. I've tried taking her toys away. I
really don't know what else to punish her with, or how else to get the point
across. Any ideas?
TIA,
Denise

Instead of punishment, try positive parenting.

Make sure that you acknowledge her when she is doing things you
want her to do. Say *good listening* when she listens. Say *you
put your doll on the shelf so it wouldn't get broken* when she does
put it away.

You need to help her to redefine her self-image in terms
of the things she does well rather than in terms of being the *bad
child* who always does things wrong. She has most likely decided
that no matter what she does, you will not see her good points so
why try? To that end, get How to Listen So Kids Will Talk and Talk
So Kids Will Listen by Adele Faber and Elaine Maslish and try to
change the way you speak to her. The best thing you can do is
to acknowledge her feelings and to listen to her carefully.

Find things she likes to do and allow her the space and time to
explore them. Messy is a good thing as long as she helps clean
up afterward. Perhaps you can find a room that she can use that
allows her to be messy. Explore playdough, paints, glue, making
paper, etc. Do it with her, but let her control the direction it goes
in. Get down the crafts bin and allow her to make art projects.
Make feely collages, make glitter and glue creations, make paintings,
make drawings. And hang them where everyone can admire them
as well. Look at the creativity she is showing rather than at the
mess she makes in the process. Teach her how to make things
you like to make and engage her in the process.

Since she likes to play with water, find a way to allow that too.
There is nothing wrong with water play and it teaches many math
and science concepts. Get her lots of different sizes of containers,
Put some water in your sink (or get a sensory table you can add
water to) and let her play to her heart's content.

Five year olds love to make up rules and have everyone obey them.
So play games where she gets to be the boss. Act out different
scenarios where others are the boss too. Get her to act out her
feelings and to show you what she is thinking.

Good luck.

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 14:48:52 -0700, "Ali's Daddie"
wrote:

1. Time Outs - She sits on the couch with her hands in her lap. She is
allowed to watch tv, but is not allowed to talk or cry or play.

2. Time Outs In her bedroom - Same as above, but with her hands in her lap
sitting on her bed. Also, not allowed to play.

3. Is the same as 2, but if she cries, she has to have her bedroom door
closed.

Usually, time outs last no more than 5 minutes (if that long) and are
somewhat productive.

Are you trying to teach her that it's not okay to express her emotion?
That is likely what this kind of *time-out* will accomplish.

Crying should be accepted as an expression of sadness or anger,
not suppressed because the adults don't like to hear it, imo.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

"toto" wrote in message
|
| Are you trying to teach her that it's not okay to express her emotion?
| That is likely what this kind of *time-out* will accomplish.
|
| Crying should be accepted as an expression of sadness or anger,
| not suppressed because the adults don't like to hear it, imo.
|
|


Sorry, thats not what I meant at all. What I meant was that she has a habit
of crying to get her way. Something my mother and sister allowed. Emotions
are something she understands very well. The temper tantrums and trying to
get her way is not something she should be doing.

I hate that we have to use any form of punishment at all. But as of now,
that's all she has ever known and all she responds to.

We do try positive parenting, but it isn't always possible with her.

In January she will be starting Montessori School and hopefully that will
help give her more structure in her life and I know that will help. Plus the
leaps and bounds we have made with her the short time we have had her will
help her adjust to a school setting. (Like she has study time every day with
her leap pads, reading with me, flash cards with me & Jarrod, and her Barbie
Computer)

As it is, she has very little interaction with other kids. Which I hate. But
there is just nothing I can do about it at the moment. But January is only a
few weeks away.


--
LES!

To send me an email, please remove Your Hat
YourHatDaddie @ bonbon.net

Hi -

My active child was five when we started a "point" system. I gave him
(and his older brother) two points to start the day. From then on, they
could earn points (by remembering to brush teeth, doing homework,
having a "no TV" day, helping with household chores, etc.) and lose
points (tantrums, not listening to me when asked to do something,
breaking particular rules etc.). At the end of each day if he had
earned enough points he'd get a treat. If he lost enough points he'd
lose a privilege for a time.

The points were a GREAT incentive. I always warned (well, nearly
always) before taking away a point. I frequently gave out points with
no warning. It was a useful tool for ME, as well, because it helped me
look out for good behaviors to reward.

I kept the daily count of points in my head, but you could also do it on
paper, with stars, whatever. After about a year we stopped using the
points, relying instead on other forms of discipline. (Tantrums now
send a child to his room, hitting yields an immediated time-out where
the child must sit in the time-out chair until ready to be calm and
apologize ... but no other restrictions on behavior as long as he stays
in the chair, etc.) Those other conseuqences never went away -- they
were often invoked instead of losing points, at my discretion -- but
points were great for times when the natural consequence was not
realistic, or inconvenient or impractical.

Other than just plain parenting issues, think about whether the change
in behavior was sudden. Sometimes kids have a change in behavior
because something is troubling them. It can be as simple as a best
friend moving away, or as complicated as sexual abuse. Usually it's
something between the two, perhaps difficulty with a child or teacher at
school. Talk with your child if you think something like that might be
a possibility.

If the behavior keeps getting worse, do seek the help of a good child
psychologist, one who can look not only at your child's behavior, but at
family dynamics.

I hope it all works out!
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

"Beth Kevles" wrote in message
...
|
| Hi -
|
| My active child was five when we started a "point" system. I gave him
| (and his older brother) two points to start the day. From then on, they
| could earn points (by remembering to brush teeth, doing homework,
| having a "no TV" day, helping with household chores, etc.) and lose
| points (tantrums, not listening to me when asked to do something,
| breaking particular rules etc.). At the end of each day if he had
| earned enough points he'd get a treat. If he lost enough points he'd
| lose a privilege for a time.
|
| The points were a GREAT incentive. I always warned (well, nearly
| always) before taking away a point. I frequently gave out points with
| no warning. It was a useful tool for ME, as well, because it helped me
| look out for good behaviors to reward.
|
| I kept the daily count of points in my head, but you could also do it on
| paper, with stars, whatever. After about a year we stopped using the
| points, relying instead on other forms of discipline. (Tantrums now
| send a child to his room, hitting yields an immediated time-out where
| the child must sit in the time-out chair until ready to be calm and
| apologize ... but no other restrictions on behavior as long as he stays
| in the chair, etc.) Those other conseuqences never went away -- they
| were often invoked instead of losing points, at my discretion -- but
| points were great for times when the natural consequence was not
| realistic, or inconvenient or impractical.
|
| Other than just plain parenting issues, think about whether the change
| in behavior was sudden. Sometimes kids have a change in behavior
| because something is troubling them. It can be as simple as a best
| friend moving away, or as complicated as sexual abuse. Usually it's
| something between the two, perhaps difficulty with a child or teacher at
| school. Talk with your child if you think something like that might be
| a possibility.
|
| If the behavior keeps getting worse, do seek the help of a good child
| psychologist, one who can look not only at your child's behavior, but at
| family dynamics.
|


Fantastic idea! I have never thought of the points idea. Kris loves hot
cocoa and ice cream.. As well as certain cartoons. The idea of having to
earn them is a little better (for her) than the idea of an allowance we have
been tossing around. (She does very well with her assigned chore of cleaning
her room by herself)

Also, let me add that as of January, she will be covered by our insurance
and a child psychologist is something we are seriously considering...
Because of her being shuffled around so much.


--
LES!

Daddie to Alegra Lee. May 25th 2003!
"Daddie's Little Diva"

To send me an email, please remove your hat
YourHatDaddie @ bonbon.net

"Ali's Daddie" wrote in message
...

"toto" wrote in message
|
| Are you trying to teach her that it's not okay to express her emotion?
| That is likely what this kind of *time-out* will accomplish.
|
| Crying should be accepted as an expression of sadness or anger,
| not suppressed because the adults don't like to hear it, imo.
|
|


Sorry, thats not what I meant at all. What I meant was that she has a
habit
of crying to get her way. Something my mother and sister allowed. Emotions
are something she understands very well. The temper tantrums and trying to
get her way is not something she should be doing.

I agree with Dorothy. If you do not want to learn to cry to get her way,
then just don't give her her way when she cries, but she should be allowed
to cry. If she is only using it to get her way, then she will quickly learn
that she will not get her way by crying, because you won't give in.
Otherwise, she understands the rule is no crying or she will be further
punished. She will not distinguish one kind of crying from another. I
know, because my mom used to slap me whenever I cried. I'm sure she thought
I was always doing it to get my way, but that's not so. Anyway, I learned
to suppress my emotions because I thought crying or sadness was a sign of
weakness. As an adult, I don't think that's healthy.

"Denise" wrote in message
...
My oldest DD has recently turned 5. She's also recently turned into demon
child. Ok, not really. But our biggest concern right now is that she
just
doesn't care about anything. She doesn't take care of her things, or my
things for that matter, doesn't listen, doesn't care when she's punished,
etc. She likes to lock herself in the bathroom and play in the water, so
now she's not allowed to lock the bathroom door. Today she got into our
box
of craft stuff (that was high up in the garage) and dumped glitter
everywhere. We've tried time outs. I've tried taking her toys away. I
really don't know what else to punish her with, or how else to get the
point
across. Any ideas?
TIA,
Denise




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I guess I would find what she DOES care about and make sure she gets plenty
of that. And I would look at why she is doing what she is doing, and try to
achieve solutions from that. She likes to play in the water... Make sure she
gets as much playing in the water as she wants, no door locking required.
Make sure she gets messy play time, if that is what she needs. Perhaps a
sand and water table in a safe place to make a mess?

Also, make sure she is not acting up to get attention because she is not
getting enough positive attention. Kids need attention. If they do not get
it in positive ways; reading together, craft time together, playground where
you are playing with them, they will demand it in nonpositive ways... actin
out in ways they know will get a heavy hand from you. Also, kids need
PARENTAL attention. So even if they are getting gobs with a nanny or at a
daycare, they still need gobs from Mom and Dad.

It is hard to know your situation from your post, I am guessing at a few
things to look at.

Also, at the age of 3, I have next to never punished my son. (I say next to
never because I suspect I have done it and cannot remember. Never say
"never.") Punishment is highly over rated as a motivator for permanent
change. Just like any problme you are trying to solve, you have to
understand the underlying cause of the problem before you can determine the
solution. WHY is your dd pitching the glitter on the floor? If it is because
she likes texture play then punushing her will do no good. Providing
playtime with different textures will do permanent good. If she is doing it
because she has an independant spirit, then punishing will do no good unless
you show her an appropriate way to do what she wants for herself, like
asking Mom if she can have craft time... KNow what I mean?

Good luck

S

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:09:21 -0700, "Ali's Daddie"
wrote:


"toto" wrote in message
|
| Are you trying to teach her that it's not okay to express her emotion?
| That is likely what this kind of *time-out* will accomplish.
|
| Crying should be accepted as an expression of sadness or anger,
| not suppressed because the adults don't like to hear it, imo.
|
|


Sorry, thats not what I meant at all. What I meant was that she has a habit
of crying to get her way. Something my mother and sister allowed. Emotions
are something she understands very well. The temper tantrums and trying to
get her way is not something she should be doing.

Yes, but you should still accept the crying.
Say *I can see you are sad about that, but we can't do it right now*
or *you must be angry. I understand, but it's not safe to do that, so
I can't allow you to do it.*
It's really not good to tell a child she can't cry, imo.

I hate that we have to use any form of punishment at all. But as of now,
that's all she has ever known and all she responds to.

That doesn't mean that *you* continue it. If you respond differently,
she will too. It takes time.

We do try positive parenting, but it isn't always possible with her.

Why not? What happens?

In January she will be starting Montessori School and hopefully that will
help give her more structure in her life and I know that will help. Plus the
leaps and bounds we have made with her the short time we have had her will
help her adjust to a school setting. (Like she has study time every day with
her leap pads, reading with me, flash cards with me & Jarrod, and her Barbie
Computer)

I am sure she likes the positivie attention. That is something you
have to give more and more of whenever you have a child that has
only had negative attention prior to the time when you were in her
life. Montessori school is very structured, but less group oriented
than most schools.

As it is, she has very little interaction with other kids. Which I hate. But
there is just nothing I can do about it at the moment. But January is only a
few weeks away.

School will probably be good for her. It is interesting that a
Montessori school is taking new students in January. In general,
they are very much into getting the children into the routines at
the beginning of the year and don't seem to want new children
in the middle of the year here.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits