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#1
May 19th 04, 02:14 PM
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Hey Alberto & Bob
Bob LeChevalier wrote: [...finer points of "at grade level" meaning -SNIPPED- ] All this is more analysis than anyone cares about, of course, but I believe shows that my understanding of the Minnesota data is more correct than that of the racist. In today's high-tech society, few kids who perform only "at grade level" (by any definition of the standard), are going to be adequately prepared to do well in the modern world. So why get in a knot over the definition? A kid now days, to be on-track for success, needs to test at 3 or 4 grades above his/her actual grade. This is why a kid typically needs two functional nurturing parents to ensure entering school with an established, however primitive, capability in the 3-R's. Illiterate IQ-75z should not be allowed to breed, just creatz problemz. Parenthood should be *licensed*. Illiterate? Unmarried? No job? Then your license application is *REJECTED*. 
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#3
May 19th 04, 10:01 PM
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In article ,
wrote: Bob LeChevalier wrote: [...finer points of "at grade level" meaning -SNIPPED- ] All this is more analysis than anyone cares about, of course, but I believe shows that my understanding of the Minnesota data is more correct than that of the racist. In today's high-tech society, few kids who perform only "at grade level" (by any definition of the standard), are going to be adequately prepared to do well in the modern world. So why get in a knot over the definition? A kid now days, to be on-track for success, needs to test at 3 or 4 grades above his/her actual grade. This is why a kid typically needs two functional nurturing parents to ensure entering school with an established, however primitive, capability in the 3-R's. Anyone capable of doing more than the "grade" needs to be immediately (even within the school year) moved up. Those who should go to college should be taking college subjects when the educationists now allow them to go to high school, and learn good mathematics and science based on mathematics in elementary school. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
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#4
May 19th 04, 10:07 PM
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In article ,
Bob LeChevalier wrote: wrote: Bob LeChevalier wrote: [...finer points of "at grade level" meaning -SNIPPED- ] ................... A kid now days, to be on-track for success, needs to test at 3 or 4 grades above his/her actual grade. Nonsense. Any kid that far above his "actual grade" should have been skipped, and probably doesn't belong in a regular classroom even at the higher grade. Your claim requires that a 3rd grader be somehow learning 7th grade math in a classroom that is teaching 3rd grade math; why should he be in a third grade classroom to learn 7th grade math? And this will not happen until the educationists are FORCED to do this. Unless some outside source provides him with the materials, he will not even know of its existence; real mathematics is not even based on this. As I pointed out earlier, I did not know of the existence of algebra until I saw an algebra book, and this QUICKLY enabled me to advance in mathematics, which I had not even seen before. I certainly could have done this in third grade, if not earlier. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
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#5
May 19th 04, 11:58 PM
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Bob LeChevalier wrote: wrote: Bob LeChevalier wrote: [...finer points of "at grade level" meaning -SNIPPED- ] All this is more analysis than anyone cares about, of course, but I believe shows that my understanding of the Minnesota data is more correct than that of the racist. In today's high-tech society, few kids who perform only "at grade level" (by any definition of the standard), are going to be adequately prepared to do well in the modern world. Define "doing well". By world standards, 95% of the US is doing quite well indeed, which is more than the percentage that meets grade level. "Doing Well" -- Able to easily get a secure full time job with health/dental/vacation/ sick-leave benefits (or equivalent self-employed situation). Able to get married and breed kids (in-wedlock) with one spouse stay-at-home to raise them when young. Able to afford/maintain a single-family home in an area where you don't have IQ-75 OOW_Breeding GangBanging Homies on every corner dealing drugz at 2AM between ducking drive-by shooterz. Sufficient income to pay off the credit card(s) every month. Able to afford a reliable car and insurance. You get the idea... Some people claim that the average reading level in this country is below the 10th grade level and that newspapers have to write at the 6th grade level to attract readers. This does not support the claim that 12th graders need to read at 12th grade level to make it "well" in the world, much less ABOVE that level. (And personally I don't much care what level they read at in 3rd grade so long as they are reading at an adequate level when they leave school). "Average" grade level in math for a high school graduate is at least algebra and probably algebra and geometry. I doubt that 20% of the adults in this country ever use algebra or geometry in a meaningful way that requires above high school "grade level" understanding of these topics. So if 50% achieve grade level, that is more than good enough. Mastering the subject matter, whether or not you actually have to use it, develops self discipline and intellectual acuity needed to perform in a modern job. An employer wants to see this. That's why a degree is required for many jobs where the "course learning" is not necessarily used on the job. Employer wants to know you can work independently in an ambiguous environment and see a project thru...
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#6
May 20th 04, 12:25 AM
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Herman Rubin wrote: wrote: In today's high-tech society, few kids who perform only "at grade level" (by any definition of the standard), are going to be adequately prepared to do well in the modern world. So why get in a knot over the definition? A kid now days, to be on-track for success, needs to test at 3 or 4 grades above his/her actual grade. This is why a kid typically needs two functional nurturing parents to ensure entering school with an established, however primitive, capability in the 3-R's. Anyone capable of doing more than the "grade" needs to be immediately (even within the school year) moved up. I don't agree with that. For proper socialialization/adjustment, one needs to be the same age as one's peers, especially in high school. A better approach is to give exceptional students appropriate enhanced/ gifted-level assignments separate from the drones while keepinbg them in an age-appropriate grade. Re-define what the term "grade" means if that's what's needed to keep Bob happy..... assignments
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#7
May 20th 04, 02:01 AM
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#8
May 20th 04, 08:50 AM
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wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote: wrote: Bob LeChevalier wrote: [...finer points of "at grade level" meaning -SNIPPED- ] All this is more analysis than anyone cares about, of course, but I believe shows that my understanding of the Minnesota data is more correct than that of the racist. In today's high-tech society, few kids who perform only "at grade level" (by any definition of the standard), are going to be adequately prepared to do well in the modern world. Define "doing well". By world standards, 95% of the US is doing quite well indeed, which is more than the percentage that meets grade level. "Doing Well" -- Able to easily get a secure full time job with health/dental/vacation/ sick-leave benefits (or equivalent self-employed situation). Doesn't require a mastery of algebra, which is "at grade level" for lower high school students. It does require a corporate America that is willing to provide such benefits. Able to get married and breed kids (in-wedlock) with one spouse stay-at-home to raise them when young. That doesn't require education at all. Nor is it a priority with white Americans any more than with black ones. http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed...40330_fig2.pdf 70% of married mothers are in the workforce, and 75% of unmarried mothers on in the work force. Before welfare reform in the mid 90s, the percentage of unmarried mothers in the workforce was LESS than the percentage of married mothers. Thus it was MORE likely that a kid with an unmarried mom would have a stay-at-home parent, than if they had a married mom. But nowadays the difference is small. Able to afford/maintain a single-family home in an area where you don't have IQ-75 OOW_Breeding GangBanging Homies on every corner dealing drugz at 2AM between ducking drive-by shooterz. Not all Americans want single-family homes. Apartments remain quite popular. And it doesn't require a mastery of algebra, which is "at grade level" for lower high school students. Sufficient income to pay off the credit card(s) every month. Now there is an interesting racial statistic you haven't posted. What is the average credit card debt of blacks vs. whites? Which race has the higher bankruptcy rate? This doesn't take grade level. It takes not owning a credit card. Able to afford a reliable car and insurance. A lot of people in the cities don't own cars and don't need them. But this doesn't take working at or above grade level either. "Average" grade level in math for a high school graduate is at least algebra and probably algebra and geometry. I doubt that 20% of the adults in this country ever use algebra or geometry in a meaningful way that requires above high school "grade level" understanding of these topics. So if 50% achieve grade level, that is more than good enough. Mastering the subject matter, whether or not you actually have to use it, develops self discipline and intellectual acuity needed to perform in a modern job. An employer wants to see this. That's why a degree is required for many jobs where the "course learning" is not necessarily used on the job. They want to see the diploma. They don't care whether you worked at grade level, but whether you survived N years of educators. Employer wants to know you can work independently in an ambiguous environment and see a project thru... That may want to know this, but neither test scores, grades, nor diplomas can tell you this. My daughter has had mediocre test scores and grades, though she is managing to get her diploma, but her demonstration of the above was NOT in school but in Scouts. lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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#9
May 20th 04, 01:18 PM
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Bob LeChevalier wrote: wrote: Bob LeChevalier wrote: wrote: Bob LeChevalier wrote: [...finer points of "at grade level" meaning -SNIPPED- ] All this is more analysis than anyone cares about, of course, but I believe shows that my understanding of the Minnesota data is more correct than that of the racist. In today's high-tech society, few kids who perform only "at grade level" (by any definition of the standard), are going to be adequately prepared to do well in the modern world. Define "doing well". By world standards, 95% of the US is doing quite well indeed, which is more than the percentage that meets grade level. "Doing Well" -- Able to easily get a secure full time job with health/dental/vacation/ sick-leave benefits (or equivalent self-employed situation). Doesn't require a mastery of algebra, which is "at grade level" for lower high school students. Of course it's not *required*, mastery of algebra is just part of the educational package that greatly improves your odds of Doing_Well. It does require a corporate America that is willing to provide such benefits. Corporations competing for Good_Employees (ones with good educations) have to offer these bennies t compete. Able to get married and breed kids (in-wedlock) with one spouse stay-at-home to raise them when young. That doesn't require education at all. Nor is it a priority with white Americans any more than with black ones. Again, a good education is not *required*, but your chances of pulling it off in a stable fashion are much better with a good education, including the mastery of algebra which is a self-discipline of sorts (mentally absorbing the abstractions) helps to deal with life's other complexities. http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed...40330_fig2.pdf 70% of married mothers are in the workforce, and 75% of unmarried mothers on in the work force. Before welfare reform in the mid 90s, the percentage of unmarried mothers in the workforce was LESS than the percentage of married mothers. Thus it was MORE likely that a kid with an unmarried mom would have a stay-at-home parent, than if they had a married mom. But nowadays the difference is small. Yes. That's all true. But it's *NOT* the ideal way to have to live. There is less family dysfunction, and less children getting into trouble, with one stay at home spouse (unless perhaps you can afford a full-time nanny or two which is more likely if you have mastered algebra). Able to afford/maintain a single-family home in an area where you don't have IQ-75 OOW_Breeding GangBanging Homies on every corner dealing drugz at 2AM between ducking drive-by shooterz. Not all Americans want single-family homes. Apartments remain quite popular. Because that's all a lot of people can afford, particularly the LOOZers who *Did_Not* master algebra. And it doesn't require a mastery of algebra, which is "at grade level" for lower high school students. Sufficient income to pay off the credit card(s) every month. Now there is an interesting racial statistic you haven't posted. What is the average credit card debt of blacks vs. whites? Which race has the higher bankruptcy rate? DAFNz are such bad credit risks they tend not to be able to get the credit cards in the first place. Able to afford a reliable car and insurance. A lot of people in the cities don't own cars and don't need them. But this doesn't take working at or above grade level either. Revise that item: "Able to afford a reliable car/insurance or the even greater cost of taking a taxi everywhere you want to go..." Mastering the subject matter, whether or not you actually have to use it, develops self discipline and intellectual acuity needed to perform in a modern job. An employer wants to see this. That's why a degree is required for many jobs where the "course learning" is not necessarily used on the job. Employer wants to know you can work independently in an ambiguous environment and see a project thru... That may want to know this, but neither test scores, grades, nor diplomas can tell you this. Big companies work like the insurance companies. Being over age 25 statistically equates to being a better driver. Having a college degree statistically equates to better capability to do a complex ambiguous job. And being a DAFN statistically equates to being an irresponsible crime-prone IQ-75 OOW_Breeding LOOZer.... My daughter has had mediocre test scores and grades, though she is managing to get her diploma, but her demonstration of the above was NOT in school but in Scouts. Now that even the lower-level professional jobs are being off-shored to India, and elsewhere, having a GOOD degree (i.e., not "African Studies") from a GOOD university with GOOD grades in DIFFICULT subjects is even *MORE_MORE_MORE* important to get in the door and "DO WELL." MMD wishes your daughter good luck...
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#10
May 20th 04, 04:31 PM
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wrote:
Able to easily get a secure full time job with health/dental/vacation/ sick-leave benefits (or equivalent self-employed situation). Doesn't require a mastery of algebra, which is "at grade level" for lower high school students. Of course it's not *required*, mastery of algebra is just part of the educational package that greatly improves your odds of Doing_Well. There is no single educational package that does that. But that isn't the point. You've said that they have to be above grade level in the subjects tested by states in order to "do well", and my claim is that you don't even have to study all the subjects that are tested in order to "do well". Your original claim was not about "improving odds". You said: In today's high-tech society, few kids who perform only "at grade level" (by any definition of the standard), are going to be adequately prepared to do well in the modern world. And I countered that a lot of kids who perform "at grade level" do quite well. In fact, I dare say that your having defined "doing well" as you did, in terms of home ownership, jobs with benefits, and a few other things, that it is quite safe to say that MOST kids performing only "at grade level" achieve those things, and when they don't it is not usually a matter of education that stops them. It does require a corporate America that is willing to provide such benefits. Corporations competing for Good_Employees (ones with good educations) have to offer these bennies t compete. Lately those corporations are scaling back those benefits, and still having no trouble competing. Able to get married and breed kids (in-wedlock) with one spouse stay-at-home to raise them when young. That doesn't require education at all. Nor is it a priority with white Americans any more than with black ones. Again, a good education is not *required*, but your chances of pulling it off in a stable fashion are much better with a good education, including the mastery of algebra which is a self-discipline of sorts (mentally absorbing the abstractions) helps to deal with life's other complexities. I haven't seen any evidence that the highly educated have more stable marriages than the uneducated. I also suspect that marriages with highly educated people are LESS likely to have one spouse stay at home with the kids. http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed...40330_fig2.pdf 70% of married mothers are in the workforce, and 75% of unmarried mothers on in the work force. Before welfare reform in the mid 90s, the percentage of unmarried mothers in the workforce was LESS than the percentage of married mothers. Thus it was MORE likely that a kid with an unmarried mom would have a stay-at-home parent, than if they had a married mom. But nowadays the difference is small. Yes. That's all true. But it's *NOT* the ideal way to have to live. Not your ideal, but apparently a lot of theirs. Able to afford/maintain a single-family home in an area where you don't have IQ-75 OOW_Breeding GangBanging Homies on every corner dealing drugz at 2AM between ducking drive-by shooterz. Not all Americans want single-family homes. Apartments remain quite popular. Because that's all a lot of people can afford, particularly the LOOZers who *Did_Not* master algebra. It has nothing to do with affording it. I know a college-educated regular poster to the education newsgroups who I finally talked into buying her own home in the suburbs. She held it for a year, made several thousand dollars selling it, and then moved back into an apartment - in the inner city nonetheless. Much happier and less-stressed by not having to worry about her housing, much less lawn-mowing, etc., nor having to deal with a long commute. And it doesn't require a mastery of algebra, which is "at grade level" for lower high school students. Sufficient income to pay off the credit card(s) every month. Now there is an interesting racial statistic you haven't posted. What is the average credit card debt of blacks vs. whites? Which race has the higher bankruptcy rate? DAFNz are such bad credit risks they tend not to be able to get the credit cards in the first place. Then obviously they don't have problems paying off credit cards. Able to afford a reliable car and insurance. A lot of people in the cities don't own cars and don't need them. But this doesn't take working at or above grade level either. Revise that item: "Able to afford a reliable car/insurance or the even greater cost of taking a taxi everywhere you want to go..." Never heard of a bus or a Metro system, I see. Much less WALKING. Good for your heart. My daughter has had mediocre test scores and grades, though she is managing to get her diploma, but her demonstration of the above was NOT in school but in Scouts. Now that even the lower-level professional jobs are being off-shored to India, and elsewhere, having a GOOD degree (i.e., not "African Studies") from a GOOD university with GOOD grades in DIFFICULT subjects is even *MORE_MORE_MORE* important to get in the door and "DO WELL." MMD wishes your daughter good luck... She's had it. She has a job waiting for her doing exactly what she wants to do at this point in her life, with no further education required (though she is continuing her education anyway, it will likely be alongside her job). She has the backup option to enlist in the Navy or the Coast Guard at an elevated rank based on her demonstrated shipboard and leadership experience. (BTW, the military is an employer that provides pretty much all of the lifestyle you call "doing well" without requiring someone to be "above grade level" or necessarily even AT grade level.) lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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