Bad mommy or cultural difference?

"toto" wrote in message
Why were they in the same room as the room where the lesson was taking
place? Whenever my kids had music lessons, the other children and
moms waited outside the room in the alcove until it was their time for
the lessons.

My daughter's piano lessons are in the living room of a home. The teacher
requires a parent to stay, so if I happen to have younger children and no
one to watch them, they would be in the same room where the lessons were
taking place. Now when the next student comes in, they wait out in her
screened in porch.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

On Jan 8, 10:23 am, cjra wrote:
On Jan 8, 9:17 am, Caledonia wrote:



On Jan 7, 8:15 pm, hedgehog42 wrote:

On Jan 7, 4:14 pm, cjra wrote:

So, would you agree that most people, even if they were smiling and
laughing and saying how 'cute' she was, were probably annoyed at this
little girl in their way? (Altho she wasn't truly in their way, just
making the line move in more fits and starts than it might otherwise
have) btw tho there were many people with kids, none were close to her
age - either they were much younger and asleep in their parents' arms,
or old enough to walk normally, dragging their own little carry-on (3
yrs+).

Myself, I wouldn't, since "holding up the line" in this instance is
only preventing me from shuffling forward a few feet closer to my
ultimate goal.

Two potential exceptions:
1. If I were way back in a line that snaked back and forth, and I
could see across several rows to a new gap in the heads with no
apparent movement behind the gap, I might be a bit irked -- though I'd
have no idea what the holdup was. (and I certainly wouldn't call out!)
But that's a matter of not knowing what's going on, not being irked by
a toddler's dawdling per se.

2.If, at the head of the line, there were multiple stations where
people were being helped, and your daughter was being allowed to
dawdle along in such a way that I couldn't get past her easily when
MY station opened up.

Lori G.

I think I'd be peeved if it meant that I'd pick up my baggage and get
ready to shuffle forward, only to wait a bit and see whether the child
is being picked up or whether I'm just standing there, holding my bags
(I know, everyone but me has roller luggage), 'a waitin' for the child
to make a decision.

When I've done this shuffle with a stroller-aged child, I also had to
have the stroller with me -- we had to claim all of our luggage --
every piece -- and drag it with us so it could be subjected to
superscan.

In every airport I have been in in the world, you go through
immigration *before* you pick up your luggage and go through customs.
So unless you were able to gate-check your stroller, you wouldn't have
an opportunity to pick it up before immigration. (They required us to
check the stroller in Geneva - we could check it at the gate, but from
that point it got checked through to the US with regular luggage, you
couldn't pick it up at the gate)

My bad, now that I think about returning to the US from Europe. My
most recent experiences have been leaving the US territories for the
US mainland, where everything is with you during the once (or thrice)
over, while you're in this kind of neverzone of jurisdiction just to
get to the gate.

Caledonia

On Jan 8, 9:08 am, Caledonia wrote:
On Jan 7, 11:19 pm, Marie wrote:

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 19:53:07 -0800 (PST), cjra
wrote:

I did remove her, but maybe 10 minutes into it. I waited because 1. it
was cold outside. 2. DH had all her winter gear in the backpack 3. it
takes 20 minutes just to get all her winter gear on and 4. I kept
hoping he'd be done soon...

That is alot of winter gear! Do you have to put it on her to leave the
store each time? I live in South Carolina, the most we need in winter
for a trip to the store is a jacket lol
I kwym about hoping he'd be done soon, I've been there!

I'm perplexed -- what would take 20 minutes to put on for temps 10F?
The preschools here are pretty adamant that if the temps aren't in the
single digits (inclusive of wind chill, which had been a bear), it's
an outside recess....

Caledonia

Our preschools (and elementary schools) will take them out in the
single-digits, provided it's not windy.

But even if temps were between 10F and freezing, if we'd be going out
for an indeterminate amount of time (while spouse continued shopping),
I'd want toddler in jacket, mittens and hat at minimum -- if she were
in a dress (OP mentioned another visit was on the docket for later),
I'd want her in snowpants. With any snow accumulation and a toddler
opposed to being carried, I'd want boots, too.

Not 20 minutes, maybe, but not just a grab and go, either.

Lori G.

hedgehog42 wrote:

Our preschools (and elementary schools) will take them out in the
single-digits, provided it's not windy.

Around here (Boston, MA) the schools don't send them out if
it is lower than 15 - 20F, and the wind chill is factored in.

But even if temps were between 10F and freezing, if we'd be going out
for an indeterminate amount of time (while spouse continued shopping),
I'd want toddler in jacket, mittens and hat at minimum -- if she were
in a dress (OP mentioned another visit was on the docket for later),
I'd want her in snowpants. With any snow accumulation and a toddler
opposed to being carried, I'd want boots, too.

Same here.

Not 20 minutes, maybe, but not just a grab and go, either.

I can get six children ready to go outside, ranging in age
from 5 months to 5 years, in less than 20 minutes.
Including toileting prior to putting on winter gear
--
Ruth B

On Jan 8, 11:05 am, "Stephanie" wrote:
cjra wrote:
On Jan 8, 10:13 am, "Stephanie" wrote:
cjra wrote:
On Jan 8, 9:08 am, Caledonia wrote:
On Jan 7, 11:19 pm, Marie wrote:

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 19:53:07 -0800 (PST), cjra
wrote:

I did remove her, but maybe 10 minutes into it. I waited because
1. it was cold outside. 2. DH had all her winter gear in the
backpack 3. it takes 20 minutes just to get all her winter gear
on and 4. I kept hoping he'd be done soon...

That is alot of winter gear! Do you have to put it on her to leave
the store each time? I live in South Carolina, the most we need in
winter for a trip to the store is a jacket lol
I kwym about hoping he'd be done soon, I've been there!

I'm perplexed -- what would take 20 minutes to put on for temps
10F? The preschools here are pretty adamant that if the temps
aren't in the single digits (inclusive of wind chill, which had
been a bear), it's an outside recess....

Everything is relative. Where we live, everything shuts down once
it's below freezing. I have lived in places where it easily got to
-20F at times, but now we live in a place where winter = 45F.

You dont have heaters?

Outside?

Why would things shut down if it is cold *outside*?

Freezing roads, ice. Kids w/o winter gear (remember, it's only that
cold 1-3 days/year most years - many people don't *own* a heavy coat)
not equipped to wait outside for a bus or walk to school. People don't
know how to drive on icy roads....heck even rain throws people off.

We don't have tunnels and closed bridges everywhere for people to make
their way across the city. People here are not accustomed to low
temps. They freak out about the cold. When I first moved here (having
spent 9 years in snowy cold climates) I thought it was hysterical when
the whole city shut down when it barely went below freezing. Now it's
normal for me, esp. as even I no longer keep winter clothes on hand
(they're buried in the attic most of the time).

As for heaters, though we do have central heat, our wonderful c.1890s
house is built to deal with the heat, not the cold. So it's got great
cross ventilation, high ceilings, huge windows, raised floor, etc.
Even with the heat on it's bloody cold inside! (our main problem is we
need to get our floor insulation and enclose the foundation, right now
it's exposed) Wonderful in the hot summers, not so great that one week
in December or January when the temps dip below freezing.

On Jan 8, 11:37 am, Banty wrote:
In article ,
cjra says...





On Jan 8, 9:17 am, Caledonia wrote:
On Jan 7, 8:15 pm, hedgehog42 wrote:

On Jan 7, 4:14 pm, cjra wrote:

So, would you agree that most people, even if they were smiling and
laughing and saying how 'cute' she was, were probably annoyed at this
little girl in their way? (Altho she wasn't truly in their way, just
making the line move in more fits and starts than it might otherwise
have) btw tho there were many people with kids, none were close to her
age - either they were much younger and asleep in their parents' arms,
or old enough to walk normally, dragging their own little carry-on (3
yrs+).

Myself, I wouldn't, since "holding up the line" in this instance is
only preventing me from shuffling forward a few feet closer to my
ultimate goal.

Two potential exceptions:
1. If I were way back in a line that snaked back and forth, and I
could see across several rows to a new gap in the heads with no
apparent movement behind the gap, I might be a bit irked -- though I'd
have no idea what the holdup was. (and I certainly wouldn't call out!)
But that's a matter of not knowing what's going on, not being irked by
a toddler's dawdling per se.

2.If, at the head of the line, there were multiple stations where
people were being helped, and your daughter was being allowed to
dawdle along in such a way that I couldn't get past her easily when
MY station opened up.

Lori G.

I think I'd be peeved if it meant that I'd pick up my baggage and get
ready to shuffle forward, only to wait a bit and see whether the child
is being picked up or whether I'm just standing there, holding my bags
(I know, everyone but me has roller luggage), 'a waitin' for the child
to make a decision.

When I've done this shuffle with a stroller-aged child, I also had to
have the stroller with me -- we had to claim all of our luggage --
every piece -- and drag it with us so it could be subjected to
superscan.

In every airport I have been in in the world, you go through
immigration *before* you pick up your luggage and go through customs.
So unless you were able to gate-check your stroller, you wouldn't have
an opportunity to pick it up before immigration. (They required us to
check the stroller in Geneva - we could check it at the gate, but from
that point it got checked through to the US with regular luggage, you
couldn't pick it up at the gate)

This whole scenario sounds like one of those cases where you're stuck, everyone
else is stuck, anyone else reasonable should recognize they and you are *both*
stuck, and you just did the best you can with the situation.

Banty


And fortunately everyone was pretty good natured. It helped that the
guards weren't being obnoxious. But after many hours of travel, it's
also normal to have a lot of worn out people not in the best of moods,
and when you have obnoxious agents on top of it, and a kid annoying
you, well, reasonable people can become unreasonable.....

Maybe I was being overly conscientious, esp. given that DD seemed to
be entertaining just about everyone we passed. But I'm not so naive as
to think everyone really thinks my daughter is as entertaining as I
do ;-)

On Jan 8, 12:36 pm, hedgehog42 wrote:
On Jan 8, 9:08 am, Caledonia wrote:



On Jan 7, 11:19 pm, Marie wrote:

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 19:53:07 -0800 (PST), cjra
wrote:

I did remove her, but maybe 10 minutes into it. I waited because 1. it
was cold outside. 2. DH had all her winter gear in the backpack 3. it
takes 20 minutes just to get all her winter gear on and 4. I kept
hoping he'd be done soon...

That is alot of winter gear! Do you have to put it on her to leave the
store each time? I live in South Carolina, the most we need in winter
for a trip to the store is a jacket lol
I kwym about hoping he'd be done soon, I've been there!

I'm perplexed -- what would take 20 minutes to put on for temps 10F?
The preschools here are pretty adamant that if the temps aren't in the
single digits (inclusive of wind chill, which had been a bear), it's
an outside recess....

Caledonia

Our preschools (and elementary schools) will take them out in the
single-digits, provided it's not windy.

But even if temps were between 10F and freezing, if we'd be going out
for an indeterminate amount of time (while spouse continued shopping),
I'd want toddler in jacket, mittens and hat at minimum -- if she were
in a dress (OP mentioned another visit was on the docket for later),
I'd want her in snowpants. With any snow accumulation and a toddler
opposed to being carried, I'd want boots, too.

Not 20 minutes, maybe, but not just a grab and go, either.

Lori G.


Maybe 20 minutes was an exaggeration, since we didn't have to change
the diaper and put on stockings. When leaving the house for our daily
walk, however, it was 30 minutes from start to out the door for both
DD and me (and for me all I did was put on a coat and boots). I
learned to shave off a few minutes by waiting on the jacket for DD
until we were actually outside the door - then she was happy to put it
on,if I tried before, she fought it.

It's just not something we do on a regular basis. I'm more accustomed
to slipping on my sandals and walking out the door.

Banty wrote:
In article ,
cjra says...
On Jan 8, 7:36 am, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Marie wrote:
My third child turned 5 in October. When she was a baby I learned what
high needs was and it was such a relief. And it really has gotten
easier as she's gotten older, everyone was right!
I was fortunate in that DD was a relatively easy baby (all mine
were). I think before she could get around on her own and really
manipulate her environment, she was relatively content to hang out
and observe. She ate well and slept well. But when she could get
around...look out! She walked on the early side, and as soon as she
could walk she was pushing things around and climbing up them to get
to the out of reach things she wanted. She is very determined, and
can rarely be distracted. (If she wants something she's not supposed
to have, you might think you've successfully distracted her, but
the minute you turn your attention elsewhere, she'll go straight
back to what she wanted and wasn't supposed to have in the first
place. She'll wait for days for the opportunity, if need be!)
You *have* to explain things to her, because if she understands
and buys in, she'll actually do what she's supposed to do. If
you haven't convinced her, then you'd better be watching her
carefully, because she'll do it as soon as she gets the
opportunity, pretty much regardless of the consequences. She
has started to mature in this regard and will sometimes follow
rules even when she doesn't want to, but it's a slow process.
Needless to say, she's very impulsive.

She wanted her hair cut short a while back, and I asked
her to wait until after Nutcracker (much easier to get hair
up in a bun if you actually have hair). She agreed to wait, and
she did. A couple days after it was over, however, and before
I'd had a chance to get her an appointment, I sent her up to
her room to get her shoes. Less that five minutes later, when
she didn't reappear promptly, you guessed it...I found her in
my bathroom with hair *everywhere* and all the hair towards the
front of her head hacked off at about ear level. Thank goodness
she didn't do the usual thing where they cut themselves 1/8th inch
bangs, or we'd have had some wonky looking Christmas photos! She
was mystified why I was upset with her. After all, I had told
her she could get short hair after Nutcracker (while conveniently
ignoring the rule that she doesn't go in my bathroom or use
a scissors without supervision, not to mention that the hair
cutting scissors were not easy to get to).
LOL!

I know now what I'm in for. DD is already showing such signs.... and
as for the hair, I did something very similar when I was about 6.

I don't think my DD is a difficult child, she's actually been really
easy up til now and is extremely happy. However we knew that fight and
spark we saw in her in her first difficult weeks after birth which we
were so grateful for then would come back to haunt us one day ;-).
Will be great when she's an adult.

If a child is difficult or not sometimes has to do with perception.

My son, like me, has a strong independant streak. Even as a young infant, if he
experienced that I was being 'too much' for him he'd arch and frown and actually
seem wave me away with his arms. For me, that was no big deal; I'd put him down
in a safe spot and walk away. Then I'd come back to find him either asleep or
quietly occupying himself. He didn't coo much or even babble hardly at all.
He'd be perfectly social most of the time, though, as far as smiling and
responding in other ways and still is (as a teen he's way more social than I was
as a teen). But, always, if he's pressed too hard, he gets oppositional. So
I'd always 'stage' things with him as far as demands or things he needed to do,
and stay short of that oppositional shut down stage. I give him time to wake
up; time to de-stress from some things, gave some notice (not too much!) about
upcoming transitions, and avoid overtly overseeing his chores and let him pick
the times for tasks. So to me, with a little management, I had a quiet,
easygoing, and overtly happy baby and toddler and kid.

To my stepmother, those things made him a rude and difficult child. He doesn't
do things right when he's expected to do them some of the time. Even as an
infant, she'd hold him up as an infant and try to get him to respond to her;
he'd not be in the mood and look away sometimes. The first time she held him
she warned me I had a difficult baby. But he's just a kid you have to lay off
of.

I don't think it makes them necessarily rude (though
sometimes it leads to rude behaviors), but when you have multiple
children, it is not always as possible to provide all the
support one might provide otherwise to a child who needs this
sort of special handling. My oldest child is a bit like this
in that there's a line in the sand after which you've lost him.
When he was the only child in the equation, it was much easier
to manage the situation. With multiple children with occasionally
conflicting needs, sometimes he doesn't get all the management
one might otherwise choose.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Jan 8, 12:05 pm, "Stephanie" wrote:
cjra wrote:
On Jan 8, 10:13 am, "Stephanie" wrote:
cjra wrote:
On Jan 8, 9:08 am, Caledonia wrote:
On Jan 7, 11:19 pm, Marie wrote:

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 19:53:07 -0800 (PST), cjra
wrote:

I did remove her, but maybe 10 minutes into it. I waited because
1. it was cold outside. 2. DH had all her winter gear in the
backpack 3. it takes 20 minutes just to get all her winter gear
on and 4. I kept hoping he'd be done soon...

That is alot of winter gear! Do you have to put it on her to leave
the store each time? I live in South Carolina, the most we need in
winter for a trip to the store is a jacket lol
I kwym about hoping he'd be done soon, I've been there!

I'm perplexed -- what would take 20 minutes to put on for temps
10F? The preschools here are pretty adamant that if the temps
aren't in the single digits (inclusive of wind chill, which had
been a bear), it's an outside recess....

Everything is relative. Where we live, everything shuts down once
it's below freezing. I have lived in places where it easily got to
-20F at times, but now we live in a place where winter = 45F.

You dont have heaters?

Outside?

Why would things shut down if it is cold *outside*?

I'm guessing it's the same here, only on days when it's in the high
90's -- then they start to get creative with fans and such in the
schools (our school year ends at the end of June), since there is no a/
c in the classrooms and the windows aren't the big-old-open-them-up
windows schools had when I was a kid.

Caledonia

In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...

Banty wrote:
In article ,
cjra says...
On Jan 8, 7:36 am, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Marie wrote:
My third child turned 5 in October. When she was a baby I learned what
high needs was and it was such a relief. And it really has gotten
easier as she's gotten older, everyone was right!
I was fortunate in that DD was a relatively easy baby (all mine
were). I think before she could get around on her own and really
manipulate her environment, she was relatively content to hang out
and observe. She ate well and slept well. But when she could get
around...look out! She walked on the early side, and as soon as she
could walk she was pushing things around and climbing up them to get
to the out of reach things she wanted. She is very determined, and
can rarely be distracted. (If she wants something she's not supposed
to have, you might think you've successfully distracted her, but
the minute you turn your attention elsewhere, she'll go straight
back to what she wanted and wasn't supposed to have in the first
place. She'll wait for days for the opportunity, if need be!)
You *have* to explain things to her, because if she understands
and buys in, she'll actually do what she's supposed to do. If
you haven't convinced her, then you'd better be watching her
carefully, because she'll do it as soon as she gets the
opportunity, pretty much regardless of the consequences. She
has started to mature in this regard and will sometimes follow
rules even when she doesn't want to, but it's a slow process.
Needless to say, she's very impulsive.

She wanted her hair cut short a while back, and I asked
her to wait until after Nutcracker (much easier to get hair
up in a bun if you actually have hair). She agreed to wait, and
she did. A couple days after it was over, however, and before
I'd had a chance to get her an appointment, I sent her up to
her room to get her shoes. Less that five minutes later, when
she didn't reappear promptly, you guessed it...I found her in
my bathroom with hair *everywhere* and all the hair towards the
front of her head hacked off at about ear level. Thank goodness
she didn't do the usual thing where they cut themselves 1/8th inch
bangs, or we'd have had some wonky looking Christmas photos! She
was mystified why I was upset with her. After all, I had told
her she could get short hair after Nutcracker (while conveniently
ignoring the rule that she doesn't go in my bathroom or use
a scissors without supervision, not to mention that the hair
cutting scissors were not easy to get to).
LOL!

I know now what I'm in for. DD is already showing such signs.... and
as for the hair, I did something very similar when I was about 6.

I don't think my DD is a difficult child, she's actually been really
easy up til now and is extremely happy. However we knew that fight and
spark we saw in her in her first difficult weeks after birth which we
were so grateful for then would come back to haunt us one day ;-).
Will be great when she's an adult.

If a child is difficult or not sometimes has to do with perception.

My son, like me, has a strong independant streak. Even as a young infant, if he
experienced that I was being 'too much' for him he'd arch and frown and actually
seem wave me away with his arms. For me, that was no big deal; I'd put him down
in a safe spot and walk away. Then I'd come back to find him either asleep or
quietly occupying himself. He didn't coo much or even babble hardly at all.
He'd be perfectly social most of the time, though, as far as smiling and
responding in other ways and still is (as a teen he's way more social than I was
as a teen). But, always, if he's pressed too hard, he gets oppositional. So
I'd always 'stage' things with him as far as demands or things he needed to do,
and stay short of that oppositional shut down stage. I give him time to wake
up; time to de-stress from some things, gave some notice (not too much!) about
upcoming transitions, and avoid overtly overseeing his chores and let him pick
the times for tasks. So to me, with a little management, I had a quiet,
easygoing, and overtly happy baby and toddler and kid.

To my stepmother, those things made him a rude and difficult child. He doesn't
do things right when he's expected to do them some of the time. Even as an
infant, she'd hold him up as an infant and try to get him to respond to her;
he'd not be in the mood and look away sometimes. The first time she held him
she warned me I had a difficult baby. But he's just a kid you have to lay off
of.

I don't think it makes them necessarily rude (though
sometimes it leads to rude behaviors), but when you have multiple
children, it is not always as possible to provide all the
support one might provide otherwise to a child who needs this
sort of special handling. My oldest child is a bit like this
in that there's a line in the sand after which you've lost him.
When he was the only child in the equation, it was much easier
to manage the situation. With multiple children with occasionally
conflicting needs, sometimes he doesn't get all the management
one might otherwise choose.

Best wishes,
Ericka

I was simply commenting on differing perceptions of how difficult a child is.

Message from mom of 3 kids to mom of 1 kid noted :-/

Banty