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Embarrassing Students Isn't "Discipline"
The biggest problem with this type of discipline is it can be very
traumatizing to a child who is not raised this way at home. If a child has to contended with being embarrassed and a punished harshly at school, but receives no punishment at home, he or she is not going to like or want to go to school. However if a parent has used a more military style of discipline at home, they would benefit more from it than a child whose parents are softer. Sometimes as a last resort a school my need to use a little humiliation to get the point across, but in general a school can find betters ways to discipline. "Poopie Diapers" wrote in message ... No it sounds like pure military discipline. You know in the military they do much worse. Imagine carrying a bucket with your crap around for a day. Thats discipline... Imagine a teacher telling a student for punishment he will need to take a crap/pee in a bucket and carry that around school. They do that in the military and sometimes much worse. Imagine being forced to walk around with your pants down wearing a diaper and sucking your thumb for a day of discipline. Sounds like some teachers are preparing students for tyhe military. In article , Chris wrote: Such a shame: school humiliation Education experts say embarrassing students isn't good discipline 06/01/2003 By SCOTT PARKS / The Dallas Morning News A teacher bounces a tennis ball off a high school kid's head to wake him up in class. A coach uses the word "stupid" to describe a seventh-grade athlete who wants to leave the studs in her newly pierced ears despite a safety rule against wearing jewelry during workouts. A teacher makes students who don't turn in homework assignments refer to themselves in writing as "losers." A lot of people see nothing wrong with using punitive measures, including corporal punishment, against students who break rules or show disrespect. Their thinking goes like this: Some kids just don't listen to reason. They respond only to tough and decisive punishment. But school psychologists and counselors say there is a line between effective discipline and humiliation - a line that parents should understand and that schools shouldn't cross. In each of the incidents described above, "I would consider them humiliation," said Roger Herrington, a former teacher and counselor who serves as executive director of human resources for Garland public schools. "That includes anything that depreciates a student, makes them feel unworthy or singles them out for negative attention, something that makes a kid feel like, 'There's something wrong with me.' " Mr. Herrington and other veteran educators say they believe most teachers like children and are well-trained in effective discipline techniques. Still, teachers have bad days or fall into bad moods. And, sometimes, they react without thinking when a student misbehaves or clowns around. Enter humiliation. "Often, when a kid has misbehaved, one of the smartest things a teacher can do is ask himself, 'How do I want this to turn out?' " said Dr. Scott Poland, director of psychological services for the Cypress-Fairbanks school district near Houston. "A barometer teachers can always use is to ask themselves how they would want their child corrected." Separating deed, doer The coach called the girl "stupid" for piercing her ears but still allowed her to participate in afternoon weight training while wearing the new studs - a violation of the rule prohibiting jewelry. But the girl was still unhappy about being called stupid.0 "I was just really upset and mad," she said. "For a while, it kinda made me not want to do athletics anymore." Dr. Poland suggests the coach should have told the girl that she had a choice to make. She could take out the studs or sit out the afternoon workout. Instead, the coach used an insult and let the girl escape consequences for violating the no-jewelry rule. "What happened is like a global attack on the girl and really unnecessary," Dr. Poland said. "The coach could have asked the girl how she could have avoided the situation. A basic part of all of this is that we want to separate the deed from the doer." Wrong focus Dr. Stephen Brock, who trains school psychologists at California State University at Sacramento, warns against punishing students in a way that teaches them to hate things they should love. Dr. Brock, who taught for 18 years before becoming a school psychologist, remembers a coach who made his students run laps and do push-ups for being late. It became a classic case of ineffective discipline that makes no connection between the bad behavior and the consequences, Dr. Brock said. "The message to those kids was that exercise is punishment instead of promoting exercise as a way to be healthy," he said. "The focus should have been on how to get the kids more organized so they could get to class on time." The same is true, he said, of the teacher who made her seventh-graders write "loser sentences" when they failed to do their homework. While the other students reviewed and graded their assignments in class, the "losers" would have to write and rewrite their mea culpa on a sheet of paper. "Not only is it humiliating," Dr. Brock said, "it punishes kids by making them write. And this is supposed to encourage them to write more?" 'Do things respectfully' Tim Hayes, a first-year teacher at Little Elm High School in Denton County, had already submitted his resignation by the time he bounced a tennis ball off a sleeping student's head May 8. The 14-year-old boy was not hurt, and some people might say the incident was amusing and might be justified for an adolescent population that lacks respect for authority. But John Kelly, a high school psychologist in Commack, N.Y., said effective discipline is not as quick and easy as beaning a teen with a tennis ball. "Why not nudge the kid on the shoulder and take him out in the hall?" Mr. Kelly said. "Does he need to go to the school nurse? Has he been up until midnight playing video games and you need to call his parents? Does he work until midnight and come to school tired? "You do things respectfully." Corporal punishment Inevitably, the conversation about what constitutes effective discipline will turn to corporal punishment - usually, spanking with the legendary paddle, the "board of education." Data compiled by the U.S. Department of Education show a nation divided over corporal punishment. Twenty-seven states have banned it. Texas and 22 other states allow it. Some academic studies suggest that light spanking can be beneficial when reasoning and nonphysical punishments haven't worked. And a lot of families believe that spanking is beneficial because it enhances respect for authority. Even so, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Bar Association, American Medical Association, National Association of School Nurses, National Association of School Psychologists and other prominent groups are against corporal punishment. Diane Smallwood, an elementary school psychologist in New Jersey, said spanking is never an appropriate discipline. "There are times when a teacher may have to physically restrain a student for safety reasons," she said. "But corporal punishment is, in fact, teaching kids that it's OK to hit other people." Keep an eye out So, how can parents who rarely set foot inside their kids' schools keep track of whether teachers are disciplining students or humiliating them? How can they tell if the school environment is benevolent toward kids or tolerant of teachers who use their power over students to no productive end? Be vigilant, Ms. Smallwood advises. Talk to other parents about their experiences with the principal and teachers. And, she adds, be sensitive to what your child says or doesn't say. "If you have a youngster who's been coming home for five years all excited about school and then he goes into a new grade and all of a sudden doesn't want to share information about school, you need to make further inquiries about what's happening." |
#2
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Embarrassing Students Isn't "Discipline"
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#3
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Embarrassing Students Isn't "Discipline"
This type of discipline is traumatizing regardless of how the child is raised
at home. Children raised with military discipline at home already have problems. Confronting the same disciplinary in school only confounds the problem created by the discipline experience in the child's home. Schools, even as a last resort, do not need to use humiliation. Children are not stupid. Children understand humiliation and disrespect, regardless of how they are parented. Humiliation teaches children to humiliate others. Is that what we want our children to learn? LaVonne billy f wrote: The biggest problem with this type of discipline is it can be very traumatizing to a child who is not raised this way at home. If a child has to contended with being embarrassed and a punished harshly at school, but receives no punishment at home, he or she is not going to like or want to go to school. However if a parent has used a more military style of discipline at home, they would benefit more from it than a child whose parents are softer. Sometimes as a last resort a school my need to use a little humiliation to get the point across, but in general a school can find betters ways to discipline. "Poopie Diapers" wrote in message ... No it sounds like pure military discipline. You know in the military they do much worse. Imagine carrying a bucket with your crap around for a day. Thats discipline... Imagine a teacher telling a student for punishment he will need to take a crap/pee in a bucket and carry that around school. They do that in the military and sometimes much worse. Imagine being forced to walk around with your pants down wearing a diaper and sucking your thumb for a day of discipline. Sounds like some teachers are preparing students for tyhe military. In article , Chris wrote: Such a shame: school humiliation Education experts say embarrassing students isn't good discipline 06/01/2003 By SCOTT PARKS / The Dallas Morning News A teacher bounces a tennis ball off a high school kid's head to wake him up in class. A coach uses the word "stupid" to describe a seventh-grade athlete who wants to leave the studs in her newly pierced ears despite a safety rule against wearing jewelry during workouts. A teacher makes students who don't turn in homework assignments refer to themselves in writing as "losers." A lot of people see nothing wrong with using punitive measures, including corporal punishment, against students who break rules or show disrespect. Their thinking goes like this: Some kids just don't listen to reason. They respond only to tough and decisive punishment. But school psychologists and counselors say there is a line between effective discipline and humiliation - a line that parents should understand and that schools shouldn't cross. In each of the incidents described above, "I would consider them humiliation," said Roger Herrington, a former teacher and counselor who serves as executive director of human resources for Garland public schools. "That includes anything that depreciates a student, makes them feel unworthy or singles them out for negative attention, something that makes a kid feel like, 'There's something wrong with me.' " Mr. Herrington and other veteran educators say they believe most teachers like children and are well-trained in effective discipline techniques. Still, teachers have bad days or fall into bad moods. And, sometimes, they react without thinking when a student misbehaves or clowns around. Enter humiliation. "Often, when a kid has misbehaved, one of the smartest things a teacher can do is ask himself, 'How do I want this to turn out?' " said Dr. Scott Poland, director of psychological services for the Cypress-Fairbanks school district near Houston. "A barometer teachers can always use is to ask themselves how they would want their child corrected." Separating deed, doer The coach called the girl "stupid" for piercing her ears but still allowed her to participate in afternoon weight training while wearing the new studs - a violation of the rule prohibiting jewelry. But the girl was still unhappy about being called stupid.0 "I was just really upset and mad," she said. "For a while, it kinda made me not want to do athletics anymore." Dr. Poland suggests the coach should have told the girl that she had a choice to make. She could take out the studs or sit out the afternoon workout. Instead, the coach used an insult and let the girl escape consequences for violating the no-jewelry rule. "What happened is like a global attack on the girl and really unnecessary," Dr. Poland said. "The coach could have asked the girl how she could have avoided the situation. A basic part of all of this is that we want to separate the deed from the doer." Wrong focus Dr. Stephen Brock, who trains school psychologists at California State University at Sacramento, warns against punishing students in a way that teaches them to hate things they should love. Dr. Brock, who taught for 18 years before becoming a school psychologist, remembers a coach who made his students run laps and do push-ups for being late. It became a classic case of ineffective discipline that makes no connection between the bad behavior and the consequences, Dr. Brock said. "The message to those kids was that exercise is punishment instead of promoting exercise as a way to be healthy," he said. "The focus should have been on how to get the kids more organized so they could get to class on time." The same is true, he said, of the teacher who made her seventh-graders write "loser sentences" when they failed to do their homework. While the other students reviewed and graded their assignments in class, the "losers" would have to write and rewrite their mea culpa on a sheet of paper. "Not only is it humiliating," Dr. Brock said, "it punishes kids by making them write. And this is supposed to encourage them to write more?" 'Do things respectfully' Tim Hayes, a first-year teacher at Little Elm High School in Denton County, had already submitted his resignation by the time he bounced a tennis ball off a sleeping student's head May 8. The 14-year-old boy was not hurt, and some people might say the incident was amusing and might be justified for an adolescent population that lacks respect for authority. But John Kelly, a high school psychologist in Commack, N.Y., said effective discipline is not as quick and easy as beaning a teen with a tennis ball. "Why not nudge the kid on the shoulder and take him out in the hall?" Mr. Kelly said. "Does he need to go to the school nurse? Has he been up until midnight playing video games and you need to call his parents? Does he work until midnight and come to school tired? "You do things respectfully." Corporal punishment Inevitably, the conversation about what constitutes effective discipline will turn to corporal punishment - usually, spanking with the legendary paddle, the "board of education." Data compiled by the U.S. Department of Education show a nation divided over corporal punishment. Twenty-seven states have banned it. Texas and 22 other states allow it. Some academic studies suggest that light spanking can be beneficial when reasoning and nonphysical punishments haven't worked. And a lot of families believe that spanking is beneficial because it enhances respect for authority. Even so, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Bar Association, American Medical Association, National Association of School Nurses, National Association of School Psychologists and other prominent groups are against corporal punishment. Diane Smallwood, an elementary school psychologist in New Jersey, said spanking is never an appropriate discipline. "There are times when a teacher may have to physically restrain a student for safety reasons," she said. "But corporal punishment is, in fact, teaching kids that it's OK to hit other people." Keep an eye out So, how can parents who rarely set foot inside their kids' schools keep track of whether teachers are disciplining students or humiliating them? How can they tell if the school environment is benevolent toward kids or tolerant of teachers who use their power over students to no productive end? Be vigilant, Ms. Smallwood advises. Talk to other parents about their experiences with the principal and teachers. And, she adds, be sensitive to what your child says or doesn't say. "If you have a youngster who's been coming home for five years all excited about school and then he goes into a new grade and all of a sudden doesn't want to share information about school, you need to make further inquiries about what's happening." |
#4
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Embarrassing Students Isn't "Discipline"
Once again your forming a generalization that all children raised with tough
discipline "already have problems". I really don't think you know how the human mind works. If a child is raised with this kind of discipline from day one he will except it as the norm and will not question it. Most children never have a problem with the way their parents raise them until outside forces feed their minds with crap like "your parents did that to you, that's child abuse" Its only then that they start resenting their parents for raising them the way they have. Children raised with military type discipline that is not to harsh or demeaning are usually from my experience very strong, competitive, athletic masculine individuals. They are usually leaders more than followers and they don't go around whining about everything like children raised in more permissive households do. Of course if the parents are mean and sadistic like the military can sometimes be the child could grow up with emotional problems. The last part of your statement is a very politically correct one. Children sometimes are humiliated by teachers because the student is humiliating others including the teacher. Sometimes letting someone see how it feels is the best solution to a problem. People like you think that your doing right by sheltering children from reality. The truth is in the real world you disrespect someone they are going to do the same to you. "LaVonne Carlson" wrote in message ... This type of discipline is traumatizing regardless of how the child is raised at home. Children raised with military discipline at home already have problems. Confronting the same disciplinary in school only confounds the problem created by the discipline experience in the child's home. Schools, even as a last resort, do not need to use humiliation. Children are not stupid. Children understand humiliation and disrespect, regardless of how they are parented. Humiliation teaches children to humiliate others. Is that what we want our children to learn? |
#5
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Embarrassing Students Isn't "Discipline"
The correct name of the book is "A Child Called It". Its a very good book,
the first of three a book series. The abuse that Dave endured is far worst that any person could ever imagine. Dave was starved for up to ten days and when he was fed he was fed table scraps from the rest of the families food. To survive David stole food at school and when his mother found out she mad him vomit it into the toilet, pick it out and made him eat it later that night. After that incident his mother would make him stick his finger down his throat everyday after school to make sure he was not eating a school. She made him do all of the house work and made him wear the same clothes to school everyday. He received regular beatings and was verbally abused, she didn't even call him by his name, just "the boy" or "it" Some of the other things she did is made him drink ammonia, soap and bleach and made him stand in the bathroom with a mixture of bleach and ammonia. She did quite a few other think that I will not get into. His father who became a alcoholic like Dave's mother did very little to stop the abuse. Lucky school officials got involved and got him taken away from his mother and placed in foster care until he was 18. The other two books is about his life after the rescue. Dave hated his mother for years, but found that hate would only destroy him. Today he is a active contributor in the fight against child abuse. I have a lot respect for that man to able to turn out so well despite with rough childhood. I think everyone should read these book especially the first. You will read first hand what real child about is, not loving parents that sometimes spank. "tötö©" wrote in message ... On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:51:47 -0400, Newman Hunt wrote: What you perceive to be "abuse" may very well be perceived by someone else as not "coddling spoiled brats". Furthermore, children will often love and even hate their parents regardless if abuse is present. Read A Boy Called It by Dave Pelzer -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. Outer Limits |
#6
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Embarrassing Students Isn't "Discipline"
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, t=F6t=F6=A9 wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:13:17 -0400, Newman Hunt wrote: Children who are humiliated especially by their parents don't learn to cope, they learn that they are helpless to cope with such abuses and they internalize the fact that they *deserve* to be abused. The parents who abuse their children often find it very difficult to cope with life. Most parents who abuse their children do not wake up thinking, "Gee, I feel great today. I feel like abusing little Johnny." I agree. And many parents who abuse their children are following the same pattern their own parents followed. It is very difficult to break the cycle, but it can be done. No. It is very easy. All you have to do is ban spanking! ;-) I am not one of those who believes that the government must solve this in *most* situations. I believe that most parents actually want to parent well, but stress makes this difficult too. We need as a society to begin to help parents who are under stress to learn how to take care of themselves and their children. Believe it or not positive parenting can make their lives more bearable as well as making the kids lives better. Yup! Especially when both parents are working and the kids are in daycare from 7AM to 6PM!!! Or children are left alone to care for themselves from 3PM, when school is out, 'till whenever the single mother got home from work! Do you still have time for positive parenting? :-) Doan |
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Embarrassing Students Isn't "Discipline"
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, t=F6t=F6=A9 wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:14:12 -0400, Newman Hunt wrote: If so, then what good are all the various theories and statistics people love to use while discussing abused children? I realize that I have not been on apspanking for quite some time so you probably don't know my view on the studies and statistics. I have a background in mathematics. Most social science studies do not meet my criteria for valid studies given their often poor use of statistical data and analysis. The data is often poor because the variables simply cannot be all controlled for. The analyses according to mathematicians I know who have sat on peer review panels is often faulty and the few mathematicians on the panel are often ignored when the studies go to publication in social science journals. The studies are pointers, but while the correlations are there, I don't take them as *proof*. And you shouldn't because correlations are not causations! Putting that aside, what studies should do is to compare spanking and the non-cp alternatives under the same condition. This is what Baumrind & Owens (2002) attempted, along with accounting for other third confounding factors, they found no significant correlations between spanking and negative outcomes. In Straus & Mouradian (1998), the correlation between non-cp alternatives and anti-sociable behavior was even STRONGER than with spanking! I go more by what I observe with the many children I see in real life and the teenagers I talk to and listen to. As do many other people. That is why, not too many buy into to anti-spanking agenda. Those that do buy into it seem to be suffering from a case of "cargo cult" mentality. ;-) The latest line, as seen by recent posts from Chris Dugan and LaVonne (who refused to debate me even while claiming to only read research studies), is that even pediatricians are not "experts" in child development!!! You should trust the anti-spanking "expert"! :-) "Yet these things are said to be scientific. We study them. And I think ordinary people with commonsense ideas are intimidated by this pseudoscience. A teacher who has some good idea of how to teach her children to read is forced by the school system to do it some other way--or is even fooled by the school system into thinking that her method is not necessarily a good one. Or a parent of bad boys, after disciplining them in one way or another, feels guilty for the rest of her life because she didn't do "the right thing," according to the experts. So we really ought to look into theories that don't work, and science that isn't science. I think the educational and psychological studies I mentioned are examples of what I would like to call cargo cult science. In the South Seas there is a cargo cult of people. During the war they saw airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now. So they've arranged to imitate things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas--he's the controller--and they wait for the airplanes to land. They're doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land. So I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but they're missing something essential, because the planes don't land." (from Cargo Cult Science by Richard Feyman. Adapted from the CalTech commencement address given in 1974) Doan |
#8
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Embarrassing Students Isn't "Discipline"
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, t=F6t=F6=A9 wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:56:37 -0700, Doan wrote: Yup! Especially when both parents are working and the kids are in daycare from 7AM to 6PM!!! Or children are left alone to care for themselves from 3PM, when school is out, 'till whenever the single mother got home from work! Do you still have time for positive parenting? :-) In situations like this, you had better make time for positive parenting, because negative parenting makes your life more stressful. Life is often not a matter of either/or. Doan |
#9
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Embarrassing Students Isn't "Discipline"
"Newman Hunt" wrote in message ... On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:09:52 -0500, tötö© wrote: On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:13:45 -0400, Newman Hunt wrote: The attitude begins before school age. Are you suggesting that adolecesents who never exhibited any emotional dysfunctions before school age must have been abused if they are bullied in school and suddenly go on a killing spree? I would suggest that often the bullying in school is only a proximate cause and not the full story. Have you ever endured a prolonged period of time where you were bullied? If not, how can you suggest such a thing? I was-for years. As a student with physical and speech-language delays, I was very "amusing" to get a reaction from. However, home was my refuge, where I knew I was safe. I didn't get the same emotional and physical abuse there that I did at school. As a result, I could cling to that and not internalize the abuse as being part of me which I deserved. Similarly, I've known abused children for whom school was their refuge, where they were accepted. And in general, they are less likely to internalize the abuse and believe it is caused by them. The saddest children are those who are pariahs both at home and at school, because they often feel they have no one to blame but themselves, and that therefore it has to be their fault. And where the culture used to be such that such children either endured it (and grew up to end up in abusive relationships or to be abusive themselves, or both), ended up using drugs, or ended up committing suicide, now violence is increasingly becoming the answer. Not only school shootings, but many kids who get involved in gangs do so because they need an accepting place where they feel safe-and the gang provides that. |
#10
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Embarrassing Students Isn't "Discipline"
"Newman Hunt" wrote in message ... On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 09:00:00 -0500, "Donna Metler" wrote: "Newman Hunt" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:09:52 -0500, tötö© wrote: On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:13:45 -0400, Newman Hunt wrote: The attitude begins before school age. Are you suggesting that adolecesents who never exhibited any emotional dysfunctions before school age must have been abused if they are bullied in school and suddenly go on a killing spree? I would suggest that often the bullying in school is only a proximate cause and not the full story. Have you ever endured a prolonged period of time where you were bullied? If not, how can you suggest such a thing? I was-for years. As a student with physical and speech-language delays, I was very "amusing" to get a reaction from. However, home was my refuge, where I knew I was safe. I didn't get the same emotional and physical abuse there that I did at school. As a result, I could cling to that and not internalize the abuse as being part of me which I deserved. Were your parents aware of the emotional and physical abuse you endured at school? If so, what did they do (if anything) to combat this abuse? If your parents weren't aware of the abuse, why not? My parents were limited in what they could do-this didn't take place in the classroom, but around it, during the so-called "social" times of the day. One of the best things they did was find a karate instructor who was willing to work with me-having the confidence and knowing I could defend myself physically helped a lot, and the one time I ever did fight back physically, they strongly defended me and supported me. And, in general, they helped me find things I was good at and capitalize on my strengths, and made efforts to make contact with people who would be good peers for me, which helped as well. |
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