Are Bio Parents Ever Wrong?

"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
message
...
On Apr 19, 4:39 pm, "Ron" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Feb 14, 2:13 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"SRplus" wrote in message

...
On Feb 14, 8:01 am, SRplus wrote:

To read the posts on this group, you would think that no one here has
ever heard of or seen any instance where the parents of children
removed by the state were in any way responsible same.

Is the group juts that one-sided? Is it ignorance? No one here will
allow as how there are parents who beat, rape, burn, strangle kids? Or
that there are some who are so mentally ill that they just cannot
protect there kids? Or who are so strung out on dope?

Are there no families where a complaint starts with some "iffy"
things, only to find out that, indeed, mom's boyfriend IS molesting
the daughter? No parents who don't regulary tell kids, in front of
God and everyone else that they are pieces of ****, stupd, ugly, etc.?

I know one thing: I've met all of those parents. I know something
else: getting caught up in "the system" is a bitch; no doubt about
it. And another thing: I've met foster parents (and facility staff,
and casweworkers) who are dangerously ****ed up. To me, all of the
above are the same.

One thing I don't know. Is there anyone here man or woman enough to
admit, "Yup, I screwed up bad enough to lose my kids." That's it, no
specific admissions.

It doesn't, in most cases, mean that you're evil or whatever. Most
aren't. AND it doesn't absolve 'the system" from it's miscreant
injustices.

Just one person who can admit that they should have lost their kids?
Or is it all someone else's fault?
That's what I thought.

In this news group, no parent is ever at fault. Even though it is proven
beyond any reasonable doubt that parents are their own worst enemies,
CPS
and the system are blamed for each and every thing that goes wrong with
children in the system. According to the anti-CPS mob, CPS can do
nothing
right. Facts to the side (specially if they contridict any of the mobs
opinions or "facts"), CPS is an evil enterprise that is in it only for
the
money and power it gives people over others.

Never mind that a child that is in danger is most often in danger from
its
own parents and not CPS or any foster care agency or individual, just
the
idea that CPS is involved is enough for the intentionally ignorant to
blame
anyone but a parent.

Ron- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

oh, yeah, google marcus feisel, that same agency placed another foster
murderer with a child they killed!

**

We could go back and forth like that until the end of time and never come
to
a resolution. It would serve no useful purpose.

Ron

You can't get through to Ron.

***

Ask Sandra Lyles about that.

Ron

On Apr 21, 6:31*pm, "Ron" wrote:
"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...
On Apr 19, 4:39 pm, "Ron" wrote:

wrote in message

...
On Feb 14, 2:13 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"SRplus" wrote in message

....
On Feb 14, 8:01 am, SRplus wrote:

To read the posts on this group, you would think that no one here has
ever heard of or seen any instance where the parents of children
removed by the state were in any way responsible same.

Is the group juts that one-sided? Is it ignorance? No one here will
allow as how there are parents who beat, rape, burn, strangle kids? Or
that there are some who are so mentally ill that they just cannot
protect there kids? Or who are so strung out on dope?

Are there no families where a complaint starts with some "iffy"
things, only to find out that, indeed, mom's boyfriend IS molesting
the daughter? No parents who don't regulary tell kids, in front of
God and everyone else that they are pieces of ****, stupd, ugly, etc..?

I know one thing: I've met all of those parents. I know something
else: getting caught up in "the system" is a bitch; no doubt about
it. And another thing: I've met foster parents (and facility staff,
and casweworkers) who are dangerously ****ed up. To me, all of the
above are the same.

One thing I don't know. Is there anyone here man or woman enough to
admit, "Yup, I screwed up bad enough to lose my kids." That's it, no
specific admissions.

It doesn't, in most cases, mean that you're evil or whatever. Most
aren't. AND it doesn't absolve 'the system" from it's miscreant
injustices.

Just one person who can admit that they should have lost their kids?
Or is it all someone else's fault?
That's what I thought.

In this news group, no parent is ever at fault. Even though it is proven
beyond any reasonable doubt that parents are their own worst enemies,
CPS
and the system are blamed for each and every thing that goes wrong with
children in the system. According to the anti-CPS mob, CPS can do
nothing
right. Facts to the side (specially if they contridict any of the mobs
opinions or "facts"), CPS is an evil enterprise that is in it only for
the
money and power it gives people over others.

Never mind that a child that is in danger is most often in danger from
its
own parents and not CPS or any foster care agency or individual, just
the
idea that CPS is involved is enough for the intentionally ignorant to
blame
anyone but a parent.

Ron- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

oh, yeah, google marcus feisel, that same agency placed another foster
murderer with a child they killed!

**

We could go back and forth like that until the end of time and never come
to
a resolution. It would serve no useful purpose.

Ron

You can't get through to Ron.

***

Ask Sandra Lyles about that.

Ron

Don't know her.

On Apr 21, 6:22*pm, "Ron" wrote:
"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...
On Apr 19, 4:41 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...
On Apr 9, 2:19 pm, wrote:

On Feb 14, 2:13 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"SRplus" wrote in message

....
On Feb 14, 8:01 am, SRplus wrote:

To read the posts on this group, you would think that no one here
has
ever heard of or seen any instance where the parents of children
removed by the state were in any way responsible same.

Is the group juts that one-sided? Is it ignorance? No one here will
allow as how there are parents who beat, rape, burn, strangle kids?
Or
that there are some who are so mentally ill that they just cannot
protect there kids? Or who are so strung out on dope?

Are there no families where a complaint starts with some "iffy"
things, only to find out that, indeed, mom's boyfriend IS molesting
the daughter? No parents who don't regulary tell kids, in front of
God and everyone else that they are pieces of ****, stupd, ugly,
etc.?

I know one thing: I've met all of those parents. I know something
else: getting caught up in "the system" is a bitch; no doubt about
it. And another thing: I've met foster parents (and facility staff,
and casweworkers) who are dangerously ****ed up. To me, all of the
above are the same.

One thing I don't know. Is there anyone here man or woman enough to
admit, "Yup, I screwed up bad enough to lose my kids." That's it, no
specific admissions.

It doesn't, in most cases, mean that you're evil or whatever. Most
aren't. AND it doesn't absolve 'the system" from it's miscreant
injustices.

Just one person who can admit that they should have lost their kids?
Or is it all someone else's fault?
That's what I thought.

In this news group, no parent is ever at fault. Even though it is
proven
beyond any reasonable doubt that parents are their own worst enemies,
CPS
and the system are blamed for each and every thing that goes wrong
with
children in the system. According to the anti-CPS mob, CPS can do
nothing
right. Facts to the side (specially if they contridict any of the mobs
opinions or "facts"), CPS is an evil enterprise that is in it only for
the
money and power it gives people over others.

Never mind that a child that is in danger is most often in danger from
its
own parents and not CPS or any foster care agency or individual, just
the
idea that CPS is involved is enough for the intentionally ignorant to
blame
anyone but a parent.

Ron- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

oh, yeah, google marcus feisel, that same agency placed another foster
murderer with a child they killed!

That wouldn't support his pro-cps facts that he lives his life by.

**

OK then, YOU provide us with facts. Verifiable facts. From a reputiable
source. Until then (and note that this is not the first time I have asked
this of you) you are just one more wack-job bio parent on a crusade
without
a cause.

Ron

Marcus Feisel is a fact Ron.

***

One child, abused and killed by a foster parent. *

He wasn't the only child killed by a foster parent Ron.

You consider this a fact.

Yes, it was a fact that Marcus Feisel was killed by his foster
parents. They tied him up and left him in a closet for a whole
weekend while they went to a family gathering. Then when they came
back, they tried to burn the body to hide the evidence and ended up
dumping him in a river.

OK, how about the more than 1200 killed by abusive or neglectful parents?

Out of 75 million kids in the United States. Odds are most will live.

Care to put some names to them? *

The newspaper does that all the time. Then Child Protective is blamed
for not doing enough, then they get more money, hire more workers and
take more kids into foster care. Then on your end of it, you get to
take in more foster kids and you get more money, which explains your
excessive defense of the system. Look at what's going on in New York
because a kid named Nixzmary Brown was murdered. Abuse in foster care
jumped by 57%
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007...eaps_57-2.html

The same thing is happening in Washington DC.
"A spokeswoman for the agency says calls have increased 600 percent
since Banita Jacks was arrested in January after her four daughters
were found dead inside her southeast Washington home."
http://www.examiner.com/a-1315612~La...in_crisis.html

Care to advocate for reform of parenting?

Absoloutely! It's been proven that families can be saved at a much
lower cost than taking the kid right into foster care by providing the
services a family needs to be able to stay together. If you read any
of those articles you would know that.

Also Ron, the kids who were murdered by their foster parents were
supposed to be kept safe. Isn't that the point of foster care? I bet
most, if not all, would probably still be alive if they had been left
with their real parents and offered services to help the family
instead of ripping them out of the frying pan and throwing them right
into the fire. Of course there is no way of knowing for sure, but you
do know that once CPS is involved, there is obviously something
deceptive going on. You yourself even once admitted that workers lie
and blow things out of proportion. How soon you forget.

Where is the effort more likely to make a difference? *

Ron, it's been proven that kids do better in their homes. Even
dysfunctional homes. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...er-study_N.htm
You are a fool if you think that's all I'm concerned about. Foster
care destroys lives, and your precious Child Protective Services
destroys families. You know it.

Did you catch this, for example? I came across an article that talks
about children being sold in the sex trade by pimps in Oakland
California.

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime/ci_...nclick_check=1

"A 2007 survey of Oakland youth being assisted by the Sexually and
Commercially Exploited Youth Program found 88 percent of the
youngsters had run away from home, and 53 percent came from foster
care group homes."

53% of child prostitutes in Oakland California came from foster care?
Why is that Ron? How is it that such a high percentage of child
prostitutes come from such a small segment of the population?
According to you, fosters are trained and do a "far better job of
parenting." There is a lot more too it then kids dying at the hands of
foster parents.


With the 6 or so
killed by foster parents, or with the 1200 plus killed by bio parents?

That 6 comes from a smaller segment of the population.

Please, try and validate your position. *The entertainment value of that
attempt would be worth a small fortune.

Those kids were supposed to be safe in foster care. I realize that
concept hasn't sunk in yet but Jesus Ron! They were murdered by their
foster parents. They weren't kept safe. You act as if it's no big
deal at all for a foster parent to murder somebody elses kid.


Ron

On Apr 21, 6:16*pm, "Ron" wrote:
"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...
On Apr 19, 4:36 pm, "Ron" wrote:

wrote in message

...
On Feb 14, 2:13 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"SRplus" wrote in message

....
On Feb 14, 8:01 am, SRplus wrote:

To read the posts on this group, you would think that no one here has
ever heard of or seen any instance where the parents of children
removed by the state were in any way responsible same.

Is the group juts that one-sided? Is it ignorance? No one here will
allow as how there are parents who beat, rape, burn, strangle kids? Or
that there are some who are so mentally ill that they just cannot
protect there kids? Or who are so strung out on dope?

Are there no families where a complaint starts with some "iffy"
things, only to find out that, indeed, mom's boyfriend IS molesting
the daughter? No parents who don't regulary tell kids, in front of
God and everyone else that they are pieces of ****, stupd, ugly, etc..?

I know one thing: I've met all of those parents. I know something
else: getting caught up in "the system" is a bitch; no doubt about
it. And another thing: I've met foster parents (and facility staff,
and casweworkers) who are dangerously ****ed up. To me, all of the
above are the same.

One thing I don't know. Is there anyone here man or woman enough to
admit, "Yup, I screwed up bad enough to lose my kids." That's it, no
specific admissions.

It doesn't, in most cases, mean that you're evil or whatever. Most
aren't. AND it doesn't absolve 'the system" from it's miscreant
injustices.

Just one person who can admit that they should have lost their kids?
Or is it all someone else's fault?
That's what I thought.

In this news group, no parent is ever at fault. Even though it is proven
beyond any reasonable doubt that parents are their own worst enemies,
CPS
and the system are blamed for each and every thing that goes wrong with
children in the system. According to the anti-CPS mob, CPS can do
nothing
right. Facts to the side (specially if they contridict any of the mobs
opinions or "facts"), CPS is an evil enterprise that is in it only for
the
money and power it gives people over others.

Never mind that a child that is in danger is most often in danger from
its
own parents and not CPS or any foster care agency or individual, just
the
idea that CPS is involved is enough for the intentionally ignorant to
blame
anyone but a parent.

Ron- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

those parents who screwed up, most often don't want their kids back,
so why post, respond, or otherwise care if they are gone?

**
Pardon me? Are we on the same planet? These parents se these children as
their "property", not as humans.

Oh bull****! *You have no idea nor do you care how people think or
feel about their kids nor how kids feel about their parents. *You
couldn't care less about a family being ripped apart and you can't
even admit to any flaws in the system with the exception of your ten
percent loss on each kid you take into your warehouse. * You don't
care that it destroys a person having their flesh and blood ripped out
of their arms. *You know, just because somebody is a **** up doesn't
mean that they don't love their children. *Then to have some asshole
foster contractor, who does it for the money, accusing them of not
seeing their kids as human...
What a piece of work you are.

***

Once again you make invalid assumptions based on a total lack of data.
Interesting.

Can you prove the validity of your comment? Specifically...
Pardon me? Are we on the same planet? These parents se these children as
their "property", not as humans.




Why should anyone here take your posts seriously? *

Because they don't coincide with your bull****.

Are they intended to be
serious, or are they just some form of ranting that allows you to advertise
your own limited experience?

Ron
http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com

And as with any property they want it
back, or someone prosecuted for taking it. It has nothing to do with
screwing up, they dont see what they did as wrong. Its strictly a property
issue.

Dehumanization 101 with.... Ron

On Apr 21, 6:13*pm, "Ron" wrote:
"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...
On Apr 19, 4:37 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...

On Apr 9, 2:17 pm, wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:13 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"SRplus" wrote in message

...
On Feb 14, 8:01 am, SRplus wrote:

To read the posts on this group, you would think that no one here
has
ever heard of or seen any instance where the parents of children
removed by the state were in any way responsible same.

Is the group juts that one-sided? Is it ignorance? No one here will
allow as how there are parents who beat, rape, burn, strangle kids?
Or
that there are some who are so mentally ill that they just cannot
protect there kids? Or who are so strung out on dope?

Are there no families where a complaint starts with some "iffy"
things, only to find out that, indeed, mom's boyfriend IS molesting
the daughter? No parents who don't regulary tell kids, in front of
God and everyone else that they are pieces of ****, stupd, ugly,
etc.?

I know one thing: I've met all of those parents. I know something
else: getting caught up in "the system" is a bitch; no doubt about
it. And another thing: I've met foster parents (and facility staff,
and casweworkers) who are dangerously ****ed up. To me, all of the
above are the same.

One thing I don't know. Is there anyone here man or woman enough to
admit, "Yup, I screwed up bad enough to lose my kids." That's it,
no
specific admissions.

It doesn't, in most cases, mean that you're evil or whatever. Most
aren't. AND it doesn't absolve 'the system" from it's miscreant
injustices.

Just one person who can admit that they should have lost their
kids?
Or is it all someone else's fault?
That's what I thought.

Ron buddy
Why haven't you been to ascps to argue for the system sucks?

In this news group, no parent is ever at fault.

And you foster parents are totally innocent right Ron? Have you
looked at Legally Kidnapped yet? Still stuck on your bull**** CPS
facts?

You have not proven them to be in any way inaccurate. I have asked several
times for you to provide data from reputiable sources that contridicts the
data I quote, but we have not seen anything from you yet. Why is that?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...er-study_N.htm
Here's the actual study this article is refering tohttp://www.mit.edu/~jjdoyle/doyle_fosterlt_march07_aer.pdf,http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Soc...er/sirs/papers...
You really ought to read it Ron. *Interesting stuff. *Contradicts your
bull**** with facts. *I know... God forbid it doesn't come directly
from your precious CPS. *Wouldn't support their agenda. *It kind of
discusses that line that you preach about though. *You know, your
"Where do we as a society draw the line!" bull****.

***

Thank you very much for finally providing something for me to review. *It
only took 3 requests or so, right?

You right in that the articles are interesting.

1. *I note that the MIT article makes quite a few assumptions concerning the
outcome for children in care without providing any of the background
information on the childrens families or home life. *

You can't be that dumb. Did you miss where it said that the kids in
this study who had been removed came from similar situations as those
who had not? This is a study of cases that could have gone either
way. Some workers might decide to remove while others might not.

That of course begs the
question, is it likely that the outcomes for children in care are caused
from being in foster care at one time in their lives, or is it more likely
that their family homes and the lives that they had in there are the cause?

Is that not a question that your precious CPS should be asking? It
could even be rephrased as, "Are we doing right by these kids?"


2. *The MIT article (Sorry, I cant really call it research, it just lacks so
much that I cant bring myself to think that poorly) also uses the "tendnacy
to remove" of the investigative worker as a factor in their reasoning. *

Perfectly valid. Some workers might have a different take on the
situation than others. Could be a number of different factors
involved. For example, one worker might have been brought up
differently than another.

It
also reaches as far back as 1975 for its data, some 32 years ago. *This does
not invalidate the data but it does make one wonder if they were "cherry
picking" data to support their conclusions or if this was the only data of
its type available and they were forced to use it. *That question is not
answered in the article.

3. *The article uses data exclusively from Illinois, not the most stellar
state from which to draw data, and it uses the states own data and data from
a research venue at the University of Chicago to base its conclusions on.

4. *In other words, this "research" is questionable at best.

Moving on to the data from Brown, it begins by making an assumption and
placing the blame directly on foster care. *Rather that researching the
background for the assumption, it does not appear to care about the
background and begins from the assumption that Homelessness and Poverty are
the expected outcomes for children who have had a stay in Foster Care. *The
article does make an attempt to address this problem later in the text, but
the damage is pretty much already done. *The article fails completely to
support any of its conclusions with fact or anything like it. *Assumptions
are made from basic data without providing any context what-so-ever. *Yes,
interesting.

So, in the end, it seems that you are providing us with opinion and
questionable research, and little data. *How come I'm not surprised?


It covers things that your CPS data should be going into. Of course
that would harm their cause, wouldn't it? Especially if they found
out that their solution to child abuse and neglect wasn't working.

Ron

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007...ity_foster_kid...

Ron Even though it is proven
beyond any reasonable doubt that parents are their own worst enemies,

Proven to who? A system suck judge? A piece of **** CPS worker?
You? You get paid. That's your living. Oh I know, you loose ten
percent on each kid right?

BTW are you shooting for # 240 in year 16?

CPS
and the system are blamed for each and every thing that goes wrong
with
children in the system.

As they should be. If they're going to take over the role of parent
they should at least be good parents wouldn't you think? Since kids
are passed around like puppy dogs that is not the case. Since kids
are abused in foster care, it's no better or safer than an abusive
home. Do you know that they just reported studies proving that kids
do better in life living in dysfunctional families than they do in
foster care?
http://legallykidnapped.blogspot.com...ch-could-end-f....

Why is that Ron? Could it be because even in a dysfunctional family
kids are loved?

According to the anti-CPS mob, CPS can do nothing
right.

And if you had your way every kid would be in foster care just to
increase your income levels.

Sure they can. They can destroy lives and they do one hell of a job
at that. They've done a great job at increasing the homeless
population too
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Soc...er/sirs/papers....

Facts to the side

Ron I'm shocked. You would have to look at it with an open mind in
order to move your CPS facts aside.

(specially if they contridict any of the mobs
opinions or "facts"),

We've been through this before Ron, I don't know why I bother, but I
will explain it again. Your CPS facts that you swear by while
refusing to even look at anybody else's facts are written with the CPS
agenda in mind. They are one sided and far from fair or objective.

CPS is an evil enterprise that is in it only for the
money and power it gives people over others.

That's right. Although it was started with good intentions, when
people found ways to make money from it they took full advantage.

Never mind that a child that is in danger is most often in danger
from
its
own parents and not CPS or any foster care agency or individual, just
the
idea that CPS is involved is enough for the intentionally ignorant to
blame
anyone but a parent.

And CPS takes them out of the frying pan and puts them right into the
fire. Don't they Ron.

Ron- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

those parents who screwed up, most often don't want their kids back,
so why post, respond, or otherwise care if they are gone?

Ron is anti-real-parent

"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
message
...
On Apr 21, 6:13 pm, "Ron" wrote:
"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...
On Apr 19, 4:37 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...

On Apr 9, 2:17 pm, wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:13 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"SRplus" wrote in message

...
On Feb 14, 8:01 am, SRplus wrote:

To read the posts on this group, you would think that no one here
has
ever heard of or seen any instance where the parents of children
removed by the state were in any way responsible same.

Is the group juts that one-sided? Is it ignorance? No one here
will
allow as how there are parents who beat, rape, burn, strangle
kids?
Or
that there are some who are so mentally ill that they just cannot
protect there kids? Or who are so strung out on dope?

Are there no families where a complaint starts with some "iffy"
things, only to find out that, indeed, mom's boyfriend IS
molesting
the daughter? No parents who don't regulary tell kids, in front
of
God and everyone else that they are pieces of ****, stupd, ugly,
etc.?

I know one thing: I've met all of those parents. I know something
else: getting caught up in "the system" is a bitch; no doubt
about
it. And another thing: I've met foster parents (and facility
staff,
and casweworkers) who are dangerously ****ed up. To me, all of
the
above are the same.

One thing I don't know. Is there anyone here man or woman enough
to
admit, "Yup, I screwed up bad enough to lose my kids." That's it,
no
specific admissions.

It doesn't, in most cases, mean that you're evil or whatever.
Most
aren't. AND it doesn't absolve 'the system" from it's miscreant
injustices.

Just one person who can admit that they should have lost their
kids?
Or is it all someone else's fault?
That's what I thought.

Ron buddy
Why haven't you been to ascps to argue for the system sucks?

In this news group, no parent is ever at fault.

And you foster parents are totally innocent right Ron? Have you
looked at Legally Kidnapped yet? Still stuck on your bull**** CPS
facts?

You have not proven them to be in any way inaccurate. I have asked
several
times for you to provide data from reputiable sources that contridicts
the
data I quote, but we have not seen anything from you yet. Why is that?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...er-study_N.htm
Here's the actual study this article is refering
tohttp://www.mit.edu/~jjdoyle/doyle_fosterlt_march07_aer.pdf,http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Soc...er/sirs/papers...
You really ought to read it Ron. Interesting stuff. Contradicts your
bull**** with facts. I know... God forbid it doesn't come directly
from your precious CPS. Wouldn't support their agenda. It kind of
discusses that line that you preach about though. You know, your
"Where do we as a society draw the line!" bull****.

***

Thank you very much for finally providing something for me to review. It
only took 3 requests or so, right?

You right in that the articles are interesting.

1. I note that the MIT article makes quite a few assumptions concerning
the
outcome for children in care without providing any of the background
information on the childrens families or home life.

You can't be that dumb. Did you miss where it said that the kids in
this study who had been removed came from similar situations as those
who had not? This is a study of cases that could have gone either
way. Some workers might decide to remove while others might not.

***

Read a bit further.

That of course begs the
question, is it likely that the outcomes for children in care are caused
from being in foster care at one time in their lives, or is it more likely
that their family homes and the lives that they had in there are the
cause?

Is that not a question that your precious CPS should be asking? It
could even be rephrased as, "Are we doing right by these kids?"

***

No, it begs the question "Is there anything that CAN be done for these
kids?" You seem to want perfection in our system. Sorry, it aint gonna
happen. Nothing is perfect, and CPS is no exxception. But at least they
are trying, which is more than I can say for the abusive or neglectful
parents out there.


2. The MIT article (Sorry, I cant really call it research, it just lacks
so
much that I cant bring myself to think that poorly) also uses the
"tendnacy
to remove" of the investigative worker as a factor in their reasoning.

Perfectly valid. Some workers might have a different take on the
situation than others. Could be a number of different factors
involved. For example, one worker might have been brought up
differently than another.

****

Or one having more experience than the other (addressed in the Brown paper),
or any one of a million other factors. Why choose this one? What is it
about that single factor that makes them place so much emphasis on it? Is
it becuase the data from that factor supports the conclusion they are trying
to reach?

Look beyond your personal bias for once. There is usually other questions
to be asked and other answers to be found.

It
also reaches as far back as 1975 for its data, some 32 years ago. This
does
not invalidate the data but it does make one wonder if they were "cherry
picking" data to support their conclusions or if this was the only data of
its type available and they were forced to use it. That question is not
answered in the article.

3. The article uses data exclusively from Illinois, not the most stellar
state from which to draw data, and it uses the states own data and data
from
a research venue at the University of Chicago to base its conclusions on.

4. In other words, this "research" is questionable at best.

Moving on to the data from Brown, it begins by making an assumption and
placing the blame directly on foster care. Rather that researching the
background for the assumption, it does not appear to care about the
background and begins from the assumption that Homelessness and Poverty
are
the expected outcomes for children who have had a stay in Foster Care. The
article does make an attempt to address this problem later in the text,
but
the damage is pretty much already done. The article fails completely to
support any of its conclusions with fact or anything like it. Assumptions
are made from basic data without providing any context what-so-ever. Yes,
interesting.

So, in the end, it seems that you are providing us with opinion and
questionable research, and little data. How come I'm not surprised?


It covers things that your CPS data should be going into. Of course
that would harm their cause, wouldn't it? Especially if they found
out that their solution to child abuse and neglect wasn't working.

***

The data that CPS provides on the pages I quote is required of them by law.
Not law that they have written, but laws that our representative government
has forced upon them. Not necessairly a bad thing mind you, but those very
same laws make no requirement for CPS to draw conclusions from the data.
There is only so much funding available to CPS, wouldnt it be better for
them to use that funding more appropriately and allow others to use their
own resources to study the data and find answers to the problems faced?

Ron


Ron

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007...ity_foster_kid...

Ron Even though it is proven
beyond any reasonable doubt that parents are their own worst
enemies,

Proven to who? A system suck judge? A piece of **** CPS worker?
You? You get paid. That's your living. Oh I know, you loose ten
percent on each kid right?

BTW are you shooting for # 240 in year 16?

CPS
and the system are blamed for each and every thing that goes wrong
with
children in the system.

As they should be. If they're going to take over the role of parent
they should at least be good parents wouldn't you think? Since kids
are passed around like puppy dogs that is not the case. Since kids
are abused in foster care, it's no better or safer than an abusive
home. Do you know that they just reported studies proving that kids
do better in life living in dysfunctional families than they do in
foster care?
http://legallykidnapped.blogspot.com...ch-could-end-f...

Why is that Ron? Could it be because even in a dysfunctional family
kids are loved?

According to the anti-CPS mob, CPS can do nothing
right.

And if you had your way every kid would be in foster care just to
increase your income levels.

Sure they can. They can destroy lives and they do one hell of a job
at that. They've done a great job at increasing the homeless
population too
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Soc...er/sirs/papers...

Facts to the side

Ron I'm shocked. You would have to look at it with an open mind in
order to move your CPS facts aside.

(specially if they contridict any of the mobs
opinions or "facts"),

We've been through this before Ron, I don't know why I bother, but I
will explain it again. Your CPS facts that you swear by while
refusing to even look at anybody else's facts are written with the CPS
agenda in mind. They are one sided and far from fair or objective.

CPS is an evil enterprise that is in it only for the
money and power it gives people over others.

That's right. Although it was started with good intentions, when
people found ways to make money from it they took full advantage.

Never mind that a child that is in danger is most often in danger
from
its
own parents and not CPS or any foster care agency or individual,
just
the
idea that CPS is involved is enough for the intentionally ignorant
to
blame
anyone but a parent.

And CPS takes them out of the frying pan and puts them right into the
fire. Don't they Ron.

Ron- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

those parents who screwed up, most often don't want their kids back,
so why post, respond, or otherwise care if they are gone?

Ron is anti-real-parent

"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
message
...
On Apr 21, 6:31 pm, "Ron" wrote:
"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...
On Apr 19, 4:39 pm, "Ron" wrote:

wrote in message

...
On Feb 14, 2:13 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"SRplus" wrote in message

...
On Feb 14, 8:01 am, SRplus wrote:

To read the posts on this group, you would think that no one here
has
ever heard of or seen any instance where the parents of children
removed by the state were in any way responsible same.

Is the group juts that one-sided? Is it ignorance? No one here will
allow as how there are parents who beat, rape, burn, strangle kids?
Or
that there are some who are so mentally ill that they just cannot
protect there kids? Or who are so strung out on dope?

Are there no families where a complaint starts with some "iffy"
things, only to find out that, indeed, mom's boyfriend IS molesting
the daughter? No parents who don't regulary tell kids, in front of
God and everyone else that they are pieces of ****, stupd, ugly,
etc.?

I know one thing: I've met all of those parents. I know something
else: getting caught up in "the system" is a bitch; no doubt about
it. And another thing: I've met foster parents (and facility staff,
and casweworkers) who are dangerously ****ed up. To me, all of the
above are the same.

One thing I don't know. Is there anyone here man or woman enough to
admit, "Yup, I screwed up bad enough to lose my kids." That's it, no
specific admissions.

It doesn't, in most cases, mean that you're evil or whatever. Most
aren't. AND it doesn't absolve 'the system" from it's miscreant
injustices.

Just one person who can admit that they should have lost their kids?
Or is it all someone else's fault?
That's what I thought.

In this news group, no parent is ever at fault. Even though it is
proven
beyond any reasonable doubt that parents are their own worst enemies,
CPS
and the system are blamed for each and every thing that goes wrong
with
children in the system. According to the anti-CPS mob, CPS can do
nothing
right. Facts to the side (specially if they contridict any of the mobs
opinions or "facts"), CPS is an evil enterprise that is in it only for
the
money and power it gives people over others.

Never mind that a child that is in danger is most often in danger from
its
own parents and not CPS or any foster care agency or individual, just
the
idea that CPS is involved is enough for the intentionally ignorant to
blame
anyone but a parent.

Ron- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

oh, yeah, google marcus feisel, that same agency placed another foster
murderer with a child they killed!

**

We could go back and forth like that until the end of time and never
come
to
a resolution. It would serve no useful purpose.

Ron

You can't get through to Ron.

***

Ask Sandra Lyles about that.

Ron

Don't know her.

***

Point, game, match.

Ron

On Apr 22, 9:30*am, "Ron" wrote:
"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...
On Apr 21, 6:13 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...
On Apr 19, 4:37 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...

On Apr 9, 2:17 pm, wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:13 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"SRplus" wrote in message

...
On Feb 14, 8:01 am, SRplus wrote:

To read the posts on this group, you would think that no one here
has
ever heard of or seen any instance where the parents of children
removed by the state were in any way responsible same.

Is the group juts that one-sided? Is it ignorance? No one here
will
allow as how there are parents who beat, rape, burn, strangle
kids?
Or
that there are some who are so mentally ill that they just cannot
protect there kids? Or who are so strung out on dope?

Are there no families where a complaint starts with some "iffy"
things, only to find out that, indeed, mom's boyfriend IS
molesting
the daughter? No parents who don't regulary tell kids, in front
of
God and everyone else that they are pieces of ****, stupd, ugly,
etc.?

I know one thing: I've met all of those parents. I know something
else: getting caught up in "the system" is a bitch; no doubt
about
it. And another thing: I've met foster parents (and facility
staff,
and casweworkers) who are dangerously ****ed up. To me, all of
the
above are the same.

One thing I don't know. Is there anyone here man or woman enough
to
admit, "Yup, I screwed up bad enough to lose my kids." That's it,
no
specific admissions.

It doesn't, in most cases, mean that you're evil or whatever.
Most
aren't. AND it doesn't absolve 'the system" from it's miscreant
injustices.

Just one person who can admit that they should have lost their
kids?
Or is it all someone else's fault?
That's what I thought.

Ron buddy
Why haven't you been to ascps to argue for the system sucks?

In this news group, no parent is ever at fault.

And you foster parents are totally innocent right Ron? Have you
looked at Legally Kidnapped yet? Still stuck on your bull**** CPS
facts?

You have not proven them to be in any way inaccurate. I have asked
several
times for you to provide data from reputiable sources that contridicts
the
data I quote, but we have not seen anything from you yet. Why is that?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...er-study_N.htm
Here's the actual study this article is refering
tohttp://www.mit.edu/~jjdoyle/doyle_fosterlt_march07_aer.pdf,http://www.......
You really ought to read it Ron. Interesting stuff. Contradicts your
bull**** with facts. I know... God forbid it doesn't come directly
from your precious CPS. Wouldn't support their agenda. It kind of
discusses that line that you preach about though. You know, your
"Where do we as a society draw the line!" bull****.

***

Thank you very much for finally providing something for me to review. It
only took 3 requests or so, right?

You right in that the articles are interesting.

1. I note that the MIT article makes quite a few assumptions concerning
the
outcome for children in care without providing any of the background
information on the childrens families or home life.

You can't be that dumb. *Did you miss where it said that the kids in
this study who had been removed came from similar situations as those
who had not? *This is a study of cases that could have gone either
way. *Some workers might decide to remove while others might not.

***

Read a bit further.


I read the whole thing.

That of course begs the
question, is it likely that the outcomes for children in care are caused
from being in foster care at one time in their lives, or is it more likely
that their family homes and the lives that they had in there are the
cause?

Is that not a question that your precious CPS should be asking? *It
could even be rephrased as, "Are we doing right by these kids?"

***

No, it begs the question "Is there anything that CAN be done for these
kids?" *You seem to want perfection in our system. *Sorry, it aint gonna
happen. *Nothing is perfect, and CPS is no exxception. *But at least they
are trying,

That's not true.

which is more than I can say for the abusive or neglectful
parents out there.


And that's also not true. I'm sure that there are some parents out
there who are so doped up that they are oblivious to the fact that
their kids are gone. But there are many who are not. And why should
ripping a family apart not be called abuse? Or what about bouncing
the kids from stranger to stranger, school to school, I mean I don't
expect you to admit that these things harm children or anything, but
they do.

"Many Foster Parents today use the Foster Parent Bill of Rights to
hire a lawyer and seek to adopt the child from the real parents, who
are desperately trying to get their child home and out of the system;"
http://www.senatornancyschaefer.com/...s.php?filter=6




2. The MIT article (Sorry, I cant really call it research, it just lacks
so
much that I cant bring myself to think that poorly) also uses the
"tendnacy
to remove" of the investigative worker as a factor in their reasoning.

Perfectly valid. *Some workers might have a different take on the
situation than others. *Could be a number of different factors
involved. *For example, one worker might have been brought up
differently than another.

****

Or one having more experience than the other (addressed in the Brown paper),
or any one of a million other factors. *Why choose this one? *

To make a point.

What is it
about that single factor that makes them place so much emphasis on it? *

Tendency to remove? Come on Ron. Think about it. Some of these
workers are as anti-parent as you are. Some are likely to jump the
gun while others are likely to use discretion. For the parents, it's
the luck of the draw. If they're lucky enough to get a good worker
they get to keep their kids. If not, the kids go to your house.

It does kind of make a point about the lack of consistency due to
vague definitions of abuse or neglect that could be interpreted in
various ways.


Is
it becuase the data from that factor supports the conclusion they are trying
to reach?


It's becasue they were looking for a certain type of case Ron. The
statement is that the cases could have gone either way simply
depending on which worker was sent to the home to investigate. So the
maltreatment was somewhat the same regarding severity levels.

If you knew anything about statistical analysis, then you would see
why to choose your test subjects carefully. A kid who was brain
damaged by an abusive parent is obviously going to have a different
outcome than one who wasn't, so why include them both.

Look beyond your personal bias for once. *

Like you're one to talk.

There is usually other questions
to be asked and other answers to be found.

So I have started to get through to you. Now if you can put that
concept in use regarding your CPS data....


It
also reaches as far back as 1975 for its data, some 32 years ago. This
does
not invalidate the data but it does make one wonder if they were "cherry
picking" data to support their conclusions or if this was the only data of
its type available and they were forced to use it. That question is not
answered in the article.

3. The article uses data exclusively from Illinois, not the most stellar
state from which to draw data, and it uses the states own data and data
from
a research venue at the University of Chicago to base its conclusions on..

4. In other words, this "research" is questionable at best.

Moving on to the data from Brown, it begins by making an assumption and
placing the blame directly on foster care. Rather that researching the
background for the assumption, it does not appear to care about the
background and begins from the assumption that Homelessness and Poverty
are
the expected outcomes for children who have had a stay in Foster Care. The
article does make an attempt to address this problem later in the text,
but
the damage is pretty much already done. The article fails completely to
support any of its conclusions with fact or anything like it. Assumptions
are made from basic data without providing any context what-so-ever. Yes,
interesting.

So, in the end, it seems that you are providing us with opinion and
questionable research, and little data. How come I'm not surprised?

It covers things that your CPS data should be going into. *Of course
that would harm their cause, wouldn't it? *Especially if they found
out that their solution to child abuse and neglect wasn't working.

***

The data that CPS provides on the pages I quote is required of them by law..
Not law that they have written, but laws that our representative government
has forced upon them. *Not necessairly a bad thing mind you, but those very
same laws make no requirement for CPS to draw conclusions from the data.
There is only so much funding available to CPS, wouldnt it be better for
them to use that funding more appropriately and allow others to use their
own resources to study the data and find answers to the problems faced?

Ron Ron

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007...ity_foster_kid...

Ron Even though it is proven
beyond any reasonable doubt that parents are their own worst
enemies,

Proven to who? A system suck judge? A piece of **** CPS worker?
You? You get paid. That's your living. Oh I know, you loose ten
percent on each kid right?

BTW are you shooting for # 240 in year 16?

CPS
and the system are blamed for each and every thing that goes wrong
with
children in the system.

As they should be. If they're going to take over the role of parent
they should at least be good parents wouldn't you think? Since kids
are passed around like puppy dogs that is not the case. Since kids
are abused in foster care, it's no better or safer than an abusive
home. Do you know that they just reported studies proving that kids
do better in life living in dysfunctional families than they do in
foster care?
http://legallykidnapped.blogspot.com...ch-could-end-f....

Why is that Ron? Could it be because even in a dysfunctional family
kids are loved?

According to the anti-CPS mob, CPS can do nothing
right.

And if you had your way every kid would be in foster care just to
increase your income levels.

Sure they can. They can destroy lives and they do one hell of a job
at that. They've done a great job at increasing the homeless
population too
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Soc...er/sirs/papers....

Facts to the side

Ron I'm shocked. You would have to look at it with an open mind in
order to move your CPS facts aside.

(specially if they contridict any of the mobs
opinions or "facts"),

We've been through this before Ron, I don't know why I bother, but I
will explain it again. Your CPS facts that you swear by while
refusing to even look at anybody else's facts are written with the CPS
agenda in mind. They are one sided and far from fair or objective.

CPS is an evil enterprise that is in it only for the
money and power it gives people over others.

That's right. Although it was started with good intentions, when
people found ways to make money from it they took full advantage.

Never mind that a child that is in danger is most often in danger
from
its
own parents and not CPS or any foster care agency or individual,
just
the
idea that CPS is involved is enough for the intentionally ignorant
to
blame
anyone but a parent.

And CPS takes them out of the frying pan and puts them right into the
fire. Don't they Ron.

Ron- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

those parents who screwed up, most often don't want their kids back,
so why post, respond, or otherwise care if they are gone?

Ron is anti-real-parent

"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
message
...
On Apr 22, 9:30 am, "Ron" wrote:
"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...
On Apr 21, 6:13 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...
On Apr 19, 4:37 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote
in
...

On Apr 9, 2:17 pm, wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:13 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"SRplus" wrote in message

...
On Feb 14, 8:01 am, SRplus wrote:

To read the posts on this group, you would think that no one
here
has
ever heard of or seen any instance where the parents of
children
removed by the state were in any way responsible same.

Is the group juts that one-sided? Is it ignorance? No one here
will
allow as how there are parents who beat, rape, burn, strangle
kids?
Or
that there are some who are so mentally ill that they just
cannot
protect there kids? Or who are so strung out on dope?

Are there no families where a complaint starts with some "iffy"
things, only to find out that, indeed, mom's boyfriend IS
molesting
the daughter? No parents who don't regulary tell kids, in front
of
God and everyone else that they are pieces of ****, stupd,
ugly,
etc.?

I know one thing: I've met all of those parents. I know
something
else: getting caught up in "the system" is a bitch; no doubt
about
it. And another thing: I've met foster parents (and facility
staff,
and casweworkers) who are dangerously ****ed up. To me, all of
the
above are the same.

One thing I don't know. Is there anyone here man or woman
enough
to
admit, "Yup, I screwed up bad enough to lose my kids." That's
it,
no
specific admissions.

It doesn't, in most cases, mean that you're evil or whatever.
Most
aren't. AND it doesn't absolve 'the system" from it's miscreant
injustices.

Just one person who can admit that they should have lost their
kids?
Or is it all someone else's fault?
That's what I thought.

Ron buddy
Why haven't you been to ascps to argue for the system sucks?

In this news group, no parent is ever at fault.

And you foster parents are totally innocent right Ron? Have you
looked at Legally Kidnapped yet? Still stuck on your bull**** CPS
facts?

You have not proven them to be in any way inaccurate. I have asked
several
times for you to provide data from reputiable sources that contridicts
the
data I quote, but we have not seen anything from you yet. Why is that?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...er-study_N.htm
Here's the actual study this article is refering
tohttp://www.mit.edu/~jjdoyle/doyle_fosterlt_march07_aer.pdf,http://www......
You really ought to read it Ron. Interesting stuff. Contradicts your
bull**** with facts. I know... God forbid it doesn't come directly
from your precious CPS. Wouldn't support their agenda. It kind of
discusses that line that you preach about though. You know, your
"Where do we as a society draw the line!" bull****.

***

Thank you very much for finally providing something for me to review. It
only took 3 requests or so, right?

You right in that the articles are interesting.

1. I note that the MIT article makes quite a few assumptions concerning
the
outcome for children in care without providing any of the background
information on the childrens families or home life.

You can't be that dumb. Did you miss where it said that the kids in
this study who had been removed came from similar situations as those
who had not? This is a study of cases that could have gone either
way. Some workers might decide to remove while others might not.

***

Read a bit further.


I read the whole thing.

***

Then you are suffering from some form of short-term memory loss issue.

That of course begs the
question, is it likely that the outcomes for children in care are caused
from being in foster care at one time in their lives, or is it more
likely
that their family homes and the lives that they had in there are the
cause?

Is that not a question that your precious CPS should be asking? It
could even be rephrased as, "Are we doing right by these kids?"

***

No, it begs the question "Is there anything that CAN be done for these
kids?" You seem to want perfection in our system. Sorry, it aint gonna
happen. Nothing is perfect, and CPS is no exxception. But at least they
are trying,

That's not true.

***

Says you. Of course you have nothing to support that belief, again. I dont
mind, really I dont. I helps to emphasize my position that you have much
yet to learn.

which is more than I can say for the abusive or neglectful
parents out there.


And that's also not true. I'm sure that there are some parents out
there who are so doped up that they are oblivious to the fact that
their kids are gone. But there are many who are not. And why should
ripping a family apart not be called abuse? Or what about bouncing
the kids from stranger to stranger, school to school, I mean I don't
expect you to admit that these things harm children or anything, but
they do.

"Many Foster Parents today use the Foster Parent Bill of Rights to
hire a lawyer and seek to adopt the child from the real parents, who
are desperately trying to get their child home and out of the system;"
http://www.senatornancyschaefer.com/...s.php?filter=6

***

I know that they do. I also know that this is a fact of life within the
system and that there is no remedy for it. I know that it is less harmful
than returning kids to an abusive or neglectful home, since moving from one
school to another does not place their lives in jeopardy.

I also know that politicians like to select a cause and use it as the
platform to get them re-elected, and therefore what they say and how they
say it is never to be taken at face value. A lesson you would do well to
learn.



2. The MIT article (Sorry, I cant really call it research, it just lacks
so
much that I cant bring myself to think that poorly) also uses the
"tendnacy
to remove" of the investigative worker as a factor in their reasoning.

Perfectly valid. Some workers might have a different take on the
situation than others. Could be a number of different factors
involved. For example, one worker might have been brought up
differently than another.

****

Or one having more experience than the other (addressed in the Brown
paper),
or any one of a million other factors. Why choose this one?

To make a point.

***

To support a point. Cherry-picking.

What is it
about that single factor that makes them place so much emphasis on it?

Tendency to remove? Come on Ron. Think about it. Some of these
workers are as anti-parent as you are. Some are likely to jump the
gun while others are likely to use discretion. For the parents, it's
the luck of the draw. If they're lucky enough to get a good worker
they get to keep their kids. If not, the kids go to your house.

It does kind of make a point about the lack of consistency due to
vague definitions of abuse or neglect that could be interpreted in
various ways.

***

The system is made up of humans. They are all different. They all have
different levels of experience, education, and backgrounds. Would you
prefer that a computer make these choices? One that cannot see the
suffering (of either side), see the danger, see the faces? If so you would
be a minority of one.

Is
it becuase the data from that factor supports the conclusion they are
trying
to reach?


It's becasue they were looking for a certain type of case Ron.

***

Cherry Picking.


The statement is that the cases could have gone either way simply
depending on which worker was sent to the home to investigate. So the
maltreatment was somewhat the same regarding severity levels.

If you knew anything about statistical analysis, then you would see
why to choose your test subjects carefully. A kid who was brain
damaged by an abusive parent is obviously going to have a different
outcome than one who wasn't, so why include them both.

***

Because they both are in the system? Both are boys? Both are 13? Both
come from an upper middle class family? There are a multitude of reasons to
select a data pool, one only need find the one that will meet the
requirements that will ones oucome/goals are met.

Look beyond your personal bias for once.

Like you're one to talk.

There is usually other questions
to be asked and other answers to be found.

So I have started to get through to you. Now if you can put that
concept in use regarding your CPS data....

***

No, you have not gotten through. You HAVE shown me just how ignorant the
other side of the discussion prefer's to be. Intentional Ignorance is not a
crime, but it should be.

Ron


It
also reaches as far back as 1975 for its data, some 32 years ago. This
does
not invalidate the data but it does make one wonder if they were "cherry
picking" data to support their conclusions or if this was the only data
of
its type available and they were forced to use it. That question is not
answered in the article.

3. The article uses data exclusively from Illinois, not the most stellar
state from which to draw data, and it uses the states own data and data
from
a research venue at the University of Chicago to base its conclusions
on.

4. In other words, this "research" is questionable at best.

Moving on to the data from Brown, it begins by making an assumption and
placing the blame directly on foster care. Rather that researching the
background for the assumption, it does not appear to care about the
background and begins from the assumption that Homelessness and Poverty
are
the expected outcomes for children who have had a stay in Foster Care.
The
article does make an attempt to address this problem later in the text,
but
the damage is pretty much already done. The article fails completely to
support any of its conclusions with fact or anything like it.
Assumptions
are made from basic data without providing any context what-so-ever.
Yes,
interesting.

So, in the end, it seems that you are providing us with opinion and
questionable research, and little data. How come I'm not surprised?

It covers things that your CPS data should be going into. Of course
that would harm their cause, wouldn't it? Especially if they found
out that their solution to child abuse and neglect wasn't working.

***

The data that CPS provides on the pages I quote is required of them by
law.
Not law that they have written, but laws that our representative
government
has forced upon them. Not necessairly a bad thing mind you, but those very
same laws make no requirement for CPS to draw conclusions from the data.
There is only so much funding available to CPS, wouldnt it be better for
them to use that funding more appropriately and allow others to use their
own resources to study the data and find answers to the problems faced?

Ron Ron

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007...ity_foster_kid...

Ron Even though it is proven
beyond any reasonable doubt that parents are their own worst
enemies,

Proven to who? A system suck judge? A piece of **** CPS worker?
You? You get paid. That's your living. Oh I know, you loose ten
percent on each kid right?

BTW are you shooting for # 240 in year 16?

CPS
and the system are blamed for each and every thing that goes
wrong
with
children in the system.

As they should be. If they're going to take over the role of parent
they should at least be good parents wouldn't you think? Since kids
are passed around like puppy dogs that is not the case. Since kids
are abused in foster care, it's no better or safer than an abusive
home. Do you know that they just reported studies proving that kids
do better in life living in dysfunctional families than they do in
foster care?
http://legallykidnapped.blogspot.com...ch-could-end-f...

Why is that Ron? Could it be because even in a dysfunctional family
kids are loved?

According to the anti-CPS mob, CPS can do nothing
right.

And if you had your way every kid would be in foster care just to
increase your income levels.

Sure they can. They can destroy lives and they do one hell of a job
at that. They've done a great job at increasing the homeless
population too
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Soc...er/sirs/papers...

Facts to the side

Ron I'm shocked. You would have to look at it with an open mind in
order to move your CPS facts aside.

(specially if they contridict any of the mobs
opinions or "facts"),

We've been through this before Ron, I don't know why I bother, but I
will explain it again. Your CPS facts that you swear by while
refusing to even look at anybody else's facts are written with the
CPS
agenda in mind. They are one sided and far from fair or objective.

CPS is an evil enterprise that is in it only for the
money and power it gives people over others.

That's right. Although it was started with good intentions, when
people found ways to make money from it they took full advantage.

Never mind that a child that is in danger is most often in danger
from
its
own parents and not CPS or any foster care agency or individual,
just
the
idea that CPS is involved is enough for the intentionally
ignorant
to
blame
anyone but a parent.

And CPS takes them out of the frying pan and puts them right into
the
fire. Don't they Ron.

Ron- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

those parents who screwed up, most often don't want their kids
back,
so why post, respond, or otherwise care if they are gone?

Ron is anti-real-parent

On Apr 23, 2:37*pm, "Ron" wrote:
"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...
On Apr 22, 9:30 am, "Ron" wrote:

"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...
On Apr 21, 6:13 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote in
...
On Apr 19, 4:37 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"http://www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com" wrote
in
...

On Apr 9, 2:17 pm, wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:13 pm, "Ron" wrote:

"SRplus" wrote in message

...
On Feb 14, 8:01 am, SRplus wrote:

To read the posts on this group, you would think that no one
here
has
ever heard of or seen any instance where the parents of
children
removed by the state were in any way responsible same.

Is the group juts that one-sided? Is it ignorance? No one here
will
allow as how there are parents who beat, rape, burn, strangle
kids?
Or
that there are some who are so mentally ill that they just
cannot
protect there kids? Or who are so strung out on dope?

Are there no families where a complaint starts with some "iffy"
things, only to find out that, indeed, mom's boyfriend IS
molesting
the daughter? No parents who don't regulary tell kids, in front
of
God and everyone else that they are pieces of ****, stupd,
ugly,
etc.?

I know one thing: I've met all of those parents. I know
something
else: getting caught up in "the system" is a bitch; no doubt
about
it. And another thing: I've met foster parents (and facility
staff,
and casweworkers) who are dangerously ****ed up. To me, all of
the
above are the same.

One thing I don't know. Is there anyone here man or woman
enough
to
admit, "Yup, I screwed up bad enough to lose my kids." That's
it,
no
specific admissions.

It doesn't, in most cases, mean that you're evil or whatever.
Most
aren't. AND it doesn't absolve 'the system" from it's miscreant
injustices.

Just one person who can admit that they should have lost their
kids?
Or is it all someone else's fault?
That's what I thought.

Ron buddy
Why haven't you been to ascps to argue for the system sucks?

In this news group, no parent is ever at fault.

And you foster parents are totally innocent right Ron? Have you
looked at Legally Kidnapped yet? Still stuck on your bull**** CPS
facts?

You have not proven them to be in any way inaccurate. I have asked
several
times for you to provide data from reputiable sources that contridicts
the
data I quote, but we have not seen anything from you yet. Why is that?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...er-study_N.htm
Here's the actual study this article is refering
tohttp://www.mit.edu/~jjdoyle/doyle_fosterlt_march07_aer.pdf,http://www......
You really ought to read it Ron. Interesting stuff. Contradicts your
bull**** with facts. I know... God forbid it doesn't come directly
from your precious CPS. Wouldn't support their agenda. It kind of
discusses that line that you preach about though. You know, your
"Where do we as a society draw the line!" bull****.

***

Thank you very much for finally providing something for me to review. It
only took 3 requests or so, right?

You right in that the articles are interesting.

1. I note that the MIT article makes quite a few assumptions concerning
the
outcome for children in care without providing any of the background
information on the childrens families or home life.

You can't be that dumb. Did you miss where it said that the kids in
this study who had been removed came from similar situations as those
who had not? This is a study of cases that could have gone either
way. Some workers might decide to remove while others might not.

***

Read a bit further.

I read the whole thing.

***

Then you are suffering from some form of short-term memory loss issue.

That of course begs the
question, is it likely that the outcomes for children in care are caused
from being in foster care at one time in their lives, or is it more
likely
that their family homes and the lives that they had in there are the
cause?

Is that not a question that your precious CPS should be asking? It
could even be rephrased as, "Are we doing right by these kids?"

***

No, it begs the question "Is there anything that CAN be done for these
kids?" You seem to want perfection in our system. Sorry, it aint gonna
happen. Nothing is perfect, and CPS is no exxception. But at least they
are trying,

That's not true.

***

Says you. *Of course you have nothing to support that belief, again. *I dont
mind, really I dont. *I helps to emphasize my position that you have much
yet to learn.

which is more than I can say for the abusive or neglectful
parents out there.

And that's also not true. *I'm sure that there are some parents out
there who are so doped up that they are oblivious to the fact that
their kids are gone. *But there are many who are not. *And why should
ripping a family apart not be called abuse? *Or what about bouncing
the kids from stranger to stranger, school to school, I mean I don't
expect you to admit that these things harm children or anything, but
they do.

"Many Foster Parents today use the Foster Parent Bill of Rights to
hire a lawyer and seek to adopt the child from the real parents, who
are desperately trying to get their child home and out of the system;"http://www.senatornancyschaefer.com/articles.php?filter=6

***

I know that they do. *I also know that this is a fact of life within the
system and that there is no remedy for it. *I know that it is less harmful
than returning kids to an abusive or neglectful home, since moving from one
school to another does not place their lives in jeopardy.

I also know that politicians like to select a cause and use it as the
platform to get them re-elected, and therefore what they say and how they
say it is never to be taken at face value. *A lesson you would do well to
learn.



2. The MIT article (Sorry, I cant really call it research, it just lacks
so
much that I cant bring myself to think that poorly) also uses the
"tendnacy
to remove" of the investigative worker as a factor in their reasoning.

Perfectly valid. Some workers might have a different take on the
situation than others. Could be a number of different factors
involved. For example, one worker might have been brought up
differently than another.

****

Or one having more experience than the other (addressed in the Brown
paper),
or any one of a million other factors. Why choose this one?

To make a point.

***

To support a point. *Cherry-picking.

What is it
about that single factor that makes them place so much emphasis on it?

Tendency to remove? *Come on Ron. *Think about it. *Some of these
workers are as anti-parent as you are. *Some are likely to jump the
gun while others are likely to use discretion. *For the parents, it's
the luck of the draw. *If they're lucky enough to get a good worker
they get to keep their kids. *If not, the kids go to your house.

It does kind of make a point about the lack of consistency due to
vague definitions of abuse or neglect that could be interpreted in
various ways.

***

The system is made up of humans. *They are all different. *They all have
different levels of experience, education, and backgrounds. *Would you
prefer that a computer make these choices? *One that cannot see the
suffering (of either side), see the danger, see the faces? *If so you would
be a minority of one.

Is
it becuase the data from that factor supports the conclusion they are
trying
to reach?

It's becasue they were looking for a certain type of case Ron.

***

Cherry Picking.

The statement is that the cases could have gone either way simply
depending on which worker was sent to the home to investigate. *So the
maltreatment was somewhat the same regarding severity levels.

If you knew anything about statistical analysis, then you would see
why to choose your test subjects carefully. *A kid who was brain
damaged by an abusive parent is obviously going to have a different
outcome than one who wasn't, so why include them both.

***

Because they both are in the system? *Both are boys? *Both are 13? *Both
come from an upper middle class family? *There are a multitude of reasons to
select a data pool, one only need find the one that will meet the
requirements that will ones oucome/goals are met.

Look beyond your personal bias for once.

Like you're one to talk.

There is usually other questions
to be asked and other answers to be found.

So I have started to get through to you. *Now if you can put that
concept in use regarding your CPS data....

***

No, you have not gotten through. *You HAVE shown me just how ignorant the
other side of the discussion prefer's to be. *Intentional Ignorance is not a
crime, but it should be.

Ron

It
also reaches as far back as 1975 for its data, some 32 years ago. This
does
not invalidate the data but it does make one wonder if they were "cherry
picking" data to support their conclusions or if this was the only data
of
its type available and they were forced to use it. That question is not
answered in the article.

3. The article uses data exclusively from Illinois, not the most stellar
state from which to draw data, and it uses the states own data and data
from
a research venue at the University of Chicago to base its conclusions
on.

4. In other words, this "research" is questionable at best.

Moving on to the data from Brown, it begins by making an assumption and
placing the blame directly on foster care. Rather that researching the
background for the assumption, it does not appear to care about the
background and begins from the assumption that Homelessness and Poverty
are
the expected outcomes for children who have had a stay in Foster Care.
The
article does make an attempt to address this problem later in the text,
but
the damage is pretty much already done. The article fails completely to
support any of its conclusions with fact or anything like it.
Assumptions
are made from basic data without providing any context what-so-ever.
Yes,
interesting.

So, in the end, it seems that you are providing us with opinion and
questionable research, and little data. How come I'm not surprised?

It covers things that your CPS data should be going into. Of course
that would harm their cause, wouldn't it? Especially if they found
out that their solution to child abuse and neglect wasn't working.

***

The data that CPS provides on the pages I quote is required of them by
law.
Not law that they have written, but laws that our representative
government
has forced upon them. Not necessairly a bad thing mind you, but those very
same laws make no requirement for CPS to draw conclusions from the data.
There is only so much funding available to CPS, wouldnt it be better for
them to use that funding more appropriately and allow others to use their
own resources to study the data and find answers to the problems faced?

Ron Ron

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007...ity_foster_kid....

Ron Even though it is proven
beyond any reasonable doubt that parents are their own worst
enemies,

Proven to who? A system suck judge? A piece of **** CPS worker?
You? You get paid. That's your living. Oh I know, you loose ten
percent on each kid right?

BTW are you shooting for # 240 in year 16?

CPS
and the system are blamed for each and every thing that goes
wrong
with
children in the system.

As they should be. If they're going to take over the role of parent
they should at least be good parents wouldn't you think? Since kids
are passed around like puppy dogs that is not the case. Since kids
are abused in foster care, it's no better or safer than an abusive
home. Do you know that they just reported studies proving that kids
do better in life living in dysfunctional families than they do in
foster care?
http://legallykidnapped.blogspot.com...ch-could-end-f...

Why is that Ron? Could it be because even in a dysfunctional family
kids are loved?

According to the anti-CPS mob, CPS can do nothing
right.

And if you had your way every kid would be in foster care just to
increase your income levels.

Sure they can. They can destroy lives and they do one hell of a job
at that. They've done a great job at increasing the homeless
population too
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Soc...er/sirs/papers...

Facts to the side

Ron I'm shocked. You would have to look at it with an open mind in
order to move your CPS facts aside.

(specially if they contridict any of the mobs
opinions or "facts"),

We've been through this before Ron, I don't know why I bother, but I
will explain it again. Your CPS facts that you swear by while
refusing to even look at anybody else's facts are written with the
CPS
agenda in mind. They are one sided and far from fair or objective.

CPS is an evil enterprise that is in it only for the
money and power it gives people over others.

That's right. Although it was started with good intentions, when
people found ways to make money from it they took full advantage.

Never mind that a child that is in danger is most often in danger
from
its
own parents and not CPS or any foster care agency or individual,
just
the
idea that CPS is involved is enough for the intentionally
ignorant
to
blame
anyone but a parent.

And CPS takes them out of the frying pan and puts them right into
the
fire. Don't they Ron.

Ron- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

those parents who screwed up, most often don't want their kids
back,
so why post, respond, or otherwise care if they are gone?

Ron is anti-real-parent

Hey Ron

Was this the bio-parents fault?
http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005120400

or this?
http://www.fox6.com/news/local/story...c169f&rss=tick

or this?
http://cbs11tv.com/local/foster.chil....2.706284.html