playdates for 4yo

In article , Hillary Israeli says...

In ,
Tai wrote:

*Unless it was a farming community most people wouldn't even think about
*whether there were firearms in the house - not many people would have them
*here in Australia.

FWIW - I've been through a lot of pediatricians (our first one moved, our
second one moved, our third one lied to us and majorly ****ed me off, our
fourth one is good ) and each one of them has mentioned, during our
initial consultation, something about whether or not we had guns in our
home AND whether or not we ensure our children have no access to guns in
either our home OR the homes of other family or playmates!

Well, that's the current recommendation of the AAP, and I think it's one way the
members of that in most respects august body of professionals have stepped into
little social-political ****piles.


*Also, I don't understand the term "dog crated", what is that? You surely
*don't mean it's to put the family dog in it's travelling box while there are
*visiting children in the home?

Crate training is pretty popular around here. The crate should not be as
small as an FAA-approved travelling case, no. It should be big enough to
have a separate eating and sleeping area for the animal. Most of my
clients who use crates do leave the crate open all day and most of the
dogs enjoy having a safe retreat, like a den, you know. Then if there is a
need to close them in there (work being done in the house, or some other
extenuating circumstance) the dog is used to it and isn't freaked out!


Crates are calming to many dogs. It isn't as it sounds at first.

Banty

Banty wrote:

At some point you have to trust people.

Banty ("do you have a gun in the house" "no, do you have pornographic
materials in the house?" "no, but do you keep your liquor locked up" "yes, but
do you clear the air of all your toking before you have kids over" "yes, but do
you remove prosyletizing religious materials before kids over?" "sure, but do
you refrain from taking the Lord's name in vain when kids are over..."

OK, so I'm exaggerating a bit, but, jeeesh..)

I don't think it's as slippery a slope as you
portray. I know lots of parents who would ask about
guns just because the consequences can be so absolutely
devastating, and would ask about parental supervision
or perhaps alcohol in the context of a party, but
wouldn't presume to ask about everything under the sun.
And in my experience, trust is a good thing, but there
are an awful lot of folks who make some rather odd
decisions. My kids are 8 and 10, and I wouldn't think
that anyone would think it appropriate for them to be
over at someone's house with no parental (or other adult)
supervision, yet we've already had instances where I've
had to tell people that no, my kids can't come over to
their house without a responsible adult present (which
is illegal in this state at those ages)! (It doesn't
surprise me that the kids might make this poor judgement,
but the parents in these cases *approved* of their kids
having friends over with no adults present.) And these
are perfectly nice, respectable, middle-class parents.
So, you'll have to pardon me if I can't muster
up the optimism to trust everyone in all things. In
my case, it's pretty easy, as I know most of the families
involved and have been in their homes and so I don't
have to ask much in the way of questions to ascertain
whether a minimal degree of safety is assured. But,
if I were in a different situation where I didn't have
any insight, I'm not so sure I'd be as sanguine about
the whole thing as you are.

Best wishes,
Ericka

toypup wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought poisonous baby snakes are actually
more dangerous than the adults, because they cannot control how much poison
they release when they bite.

Yes and no. They do have less control over that, so they're unlikely to
give a dry bite. However, the other issue is that the protein balance
in the poison is different. So sometimes it might be more so than the
adults, sometimes less.

Or so said the guy who did our "Bites and Stings" class at my last EMT
training.

Michelle
Flutist

Banty wrote:
In article .com, Irene
says...


dragonlady wrote:
In article .com,
"Irene" wrote:

But then -- many of my friends, throughout my life, have been men.

Strangely enough, I have found it works to talk to them as if they were
just people....
--

I think the distinction here is between a man you already know and have
become friends with over a natural progression, and making an
invitation to a man you just barely know. The potential for
misunderstandings is probably bigger when you barely know someone. It
would seem pretty obvious to me, however, that most ways that someone
would initiate a playdate would *not* imply that you were putting the
moves on the dad!

Perhaps the fact that I had worked in a field dominated by men (and so
most of my "work friends" were men) before I was home full time may have
made a difference -- but I felt no more nor less uncomfortable with men
who were nearly strangers than with women, and was no more nor less
likely to invite them over for coffee.

I didn't mean to imply that I was agreeing that it was a major issue -
just that I can see where there is at least a possibility for a
misunderstanding. There have been a couple of stay-at-home dads on my
block, and I never had an issue with them. I wasn't real close friends
with either of them, but that has more to do wih personalities than
anything else. Over the years, I've tended to have plenty of male
friends, as well. But since I've also (in my single past) dated a
number of men who started out as friends, I also think the male/female
dynamic does sometimes come into play.

But these Dads are married....no?

Banty

And I think neither of us is so naive as to deny that people have
affairs. ;-)

Irene

"toypup" wrote:


"Rosalie B." wrote in message
news
If I had a child who was terrified of dogs (which I have not had), I
would not look with favor on some other person saying they would
'help' my child overcome his/her fear. I would stop visiting this
person because I would feel that the person put their dogs above my
child's feelings, and also it would be like the person was criticizing
my parenting skills that I would not know how to deal with my own
child's fears. Very patronizing and not respectful.

I agree.


This child later tamed and brought home a feral cat that was living in
the woods (with a kitten) behind our house - she was about 5 years old
at that time. And she picked up a baby copperhead
- too small I think to actually bite something as big as she was
fortunately.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought poisonous baby snakes are actually
more dangerous than the adults, because they cannot control how much poison
they release when they bite.

That's true but she didn't get bitten. Actually, to be completely
truthful, I didn't see her with the snakes. A fellow science teacher
and friend told me about it. I'm not sure if she was at our house or
at his house at the time. But I don't know how he would know if it
was here unless she brought the snakes in to school or she described
them to him. Oh, maybe he was picking his son up at our house after
swim team.


grandma Rosalie

"Tai" wrote in message
...
Stephanie wrote:
"Tai" wrote in message
...
bizby40 wrote:
"P. Tierney" wrote in message
news:x%D2f.474014$xm3.313769@attbi_s21...

"Catherine Woodgold" wrote in message
...

"bizby40" ) writes:
I wouldn't have left my child with a family I didn't know at that
age. Kindergarten seems to make a world of difference. That
said, you can ask and the worst that can happen is that they'll
say no.

That is not the worst that can happen. The worst that can
happen is that the dad comes over and gives toypup unwanted
attention.

the sound of my head exploding


P. Tierney

lol -- yeah, every once in a while I get amazed at how some of
the women on this group are so afraid of men. This is a married
dad of a pre-schooler -- the chances of him trying to make time
with some mom on their kids' first playdate has got be
incredibly slim.


It's only an issue of propriety for me and has nothing to do with
fear.

What's improper with chatting over coffee with a Dad during a
playdate?

Nothing as long as it doesn't involve me having that coffee and chat,
effectively alone, in my home or in his of a man unknown to my husband. I
prefer to (and do) meet with fathers in public places and in groups of
other parents when it's within the privacy of someone's home. YMMV.

Coincidentally I had a cup of tea in a café with one of the fathers of a
pre-school friend of my son's today after we dropped our boys off. He's a
nice man and I neither fear him nor find him the slightest bit tempting
but I still wouldn't invite him for coffee at my house unless there was
going to be more than little children there at the same time.


Tai




Different strokes, I guess.

Banty wrote:
In article . net, Clisby
says...



P. Tierney wrote:

"Clisby" wrote in message
rthlink.net...


P. Tierney wrote:



"Catherine Woodgold" wrote in message
...



"bizby40" ) writes:



I wouldn't have left my child with a family I didn't know at that age.
Kindergarten seems to make a world of difference. That said, you
can ask and the worst that can happen is that they'll say no.

That is not the worst that can happen. The worst that can
happen is that the dad comes over and gives toypup unwanted
attention.


the sound of my head exploding


It's OK - you can bring your daughter over to play with Joseph next time
you're in Charleston.


Good to know, thanks. ;-)

Very OT question: When I worked in Charleston restaurants in
the 80's, they weren't allowed to "free pour" mixed drinks. Each
time a cocktail was made, they had to use those little airplane
bottles. (So, if one was making a drink with multiple liquors,
like a long island iced tea, one couldn't make a glass, but had
to make a full pitcher.) I'm not sure what they were hoping
to prevent with the law, but there it was.

Anyway, I have no idea why, but I was wondering recently
if that law was still in the books in South Carolina. Maybe
with recycling/lack of waste being more prevalent, they moved
away from all of those throw-away mini bottles? Just curious,
thanks.


P. Tierney



In Nov. 2004 the voters approved a constitutional amendment that would
allow ditching minibottles (yes, the state constitution, of all things,
required them in bars and restaurants.)

However, passing the amendment was just the first step and, to be
honest, I don't know what the status is. Now, the Legislature can
decide how to regulate liquor sales in bars and restaurants. I'm not
sure what, if anything, was decided during the 2005 session. (I don't
drink liquor, so I didn't pay much attention. I know there was a lot
of talk about how to set the taxes, and who could distribute it, etc.

Why, you might ask, does S.C. need to reinvent the drinking wheel
instead of just copying what other states do? Well, like old James
Petigru said back before the Civil War, "South Carolina is too small for
a republic, and too large for an insane asylum."


States?

Where I grew up, it went by county, and sometimes by district within county!

Banty


Yeah, I know some states have wet or dry counties/townships/whatever -
but I meant the process of distributing and taxing the liquor. Those
were the big issues in the Legislature here. As far as I know, the only
local option liquor laws in S.C. involve how late bars and restaurants
can serve alcohol, and whether it can be sold on Sunday.

Clisby

In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...

Banty wrote:

At some point you have to trust people.

Banty ("do you have a gun in the house" "no, do you have pornographic
materials in the house?" "no, but do you keep your liquor locked up" "yes, but
do you clear the air of all your toking before you have kids over" "yes, but do
you remove prosyletizing religious materials before kids over?" "sure, but do
you refrain from taking the Lord's name in vain when kids are over..."

OK, so I'm exaggerating a bit, but, jeeesh..)

I don't think it's as slippery a slope as you
portray. I know lots of parents who would ask about
guns just because the consequences can be so absolutely
devastating, and would ask about parental supervision
or perhaps alcohol in the context of a party, but
wouldn't presume to ask about everything under the sun.

Well, I am exaggerating a bit. I think it's something that folks need to be
sensitive to. I have seen folks say their child will never be in a home with a
gun, and that translates pretty quickly to their child will not ever be allowed
to know a child from a family with a more rural lifestyle. I think even the dog
thing can get out of hand. Clearly, a lot of people don't crate their dogs, and
dogs are extremely integrated into their life. I can see bringing it up for
*specific, stated* concerns like allergies and phobias. But I've read here and
there that it goes on this list to always ask parents, and I think that can go
overboard.

And in my experience, trust is a good thing, but there
are an awful lot of folks who make some rather odd
decisions. My kids are 8 and 10, and I wouldn't think
that anyone would think it appropriate for them to be
over at someone's house with no parental (or other adult)
supervision, yet we've already had instances where I've
had to tell people that no, my kids can't come over to
their house without a responsible adult present (which
is illegal in this state at those ages)! (It doesn't
surprise me that the kids might make this poor judgement,
but the parents in these cases *approved* of their kids
having friends over with no adults present.) And these
are perfectly nice, respectable, middle-class parents.

I'm with you on the parents-present thing. I guess I am already a little aghast
at the "hey we trust our kids what you don't trust your kids" ethos that some
parents have, and have decided that this just won't work out for my family.
Some occassional, *disclosed and discussed* exceptions are OK in my book.
Parents to go through the trouble to bring it up and work it out obviously take
it seriously. But, yeah, I *have* found out after the fact that parents have
left the house and are rather blase about it, and these do get carved out of my
OK-to-visit list :-/

And, like you say, it's not class; I guess you can say it's lifestyle,
IMadmittedly-limitedExperience it does correlate with lackadaisalness in other
aspects such that I don't think it's great for my now-teen. Like, the family on
my block that was 'trusting' about the no-adults present thing also was the
family that was somewhat proud of their "helping" a disturbed teen by letting
him hang around their pre-teen kids, until said teen conspired with
outside-the-neighborhood buddies to rob the neighoring house
:-/
Firmly middle-class, artistic, talented people. Too bad, this kind of thing as
far as parenting style with someone right on my block is pretty much a
deal-breaker when it comes to what might have been a nice friendship.


So, you'll have to pardon me if I can't muster
up the optimism to trust everyone in all things. In
my case, it's pretty easy, as I know most of the families
involved and have been in their homes and so I don't
have to ask much in the way of questions to ascertain
whether a minimal degree of safety is assured. But,
if I were in a different situation where I didn't have
any insight, I'm not so sure I'd be as sanguine about
the whole thing as you are.

I don't think I'm sanguine. Maybe a little more sensitive to how these
recommendations run.

Banty

Banty wrote:

I can understand vetting for a formal babysitting co-op. But I wouldn't subject
anyone, or allow myself to be subjected, to a litany of questions concerning
guns, dogs, liquor, housekeeping, yadda yadda. A specific question concerning
allergies, yes, that's understandable. In later years, making sure an adult is
present for certain things is important. But the whole list of lifestyle things
I see recommended to ask about? That would put me off. Pretty quick, it looks
more like like vetting for social class and custom than safety.

But how is it vetting for social class? I really *prefer* the questions
to my experience of having a blase parent show up, hand off the Epi-Pen
while dashing out the door, and say that the nut allergies *seem to* be
limited to peanuts, but 'one never knows'. I felt really nervous during
the entire playdate, unduly interested in engaging the girls in boring
crayon activities, and keeping them away from my floors, toys that
might have been mouthed, and the keyboard.

Housekeeping? Sure. I have wide pine floors that probably have nut
fragments in them. I also have animal dander. Can't change it, and
would rather be upfront about that. I've never been asked about liquor.
I have been asked about television (no, not during playdates), organic
food (nope, not consistently), sugar (easy to avoid), and allergens.
Some of these concerns I view as off-beat, but I'm also sure that many
people felt my determination to breastfeed for two years was also a
little odd. I think everyone gets to choose a few quirky things, and
stick with them

At some point you have to trust people.

I do trust people, and yet I realize that even the most sensible people
have different standards than I do regarding carseats (I think DD1 is
the only 1st grader still in a 5-point restraint, as she often reminds
me. But I've heard 'it's just a quick trip -- I can take her without
it' at least 5 times this school year). So given the carseat conundrum
(or general confusion here among other parents regarding whether a
first grader should even be in a seat or booster), I welcome questions,
and have never been asked questions that I felt were overly intrusive.
Quirky, yes. But judgemental, or playing the race/class card? I think
not.

Caledonia

In article . com, Irene says...


Banty wrote:
In article .com, Irene
says...


dragonlady wrote:
In article .com,
"Irene" wrote:

But then -- many of my friends, throughout my life, have been men.

Strangely enough, I have found it works to talk to them as if they were
just people....
--

I think the distinction here is between a man you already know and have
become friends with over a natural progression, and making an
invitation to a man you just barely know. The potential for
misunderstandings is probably bigger when you barely know someone. It
would seem pretty obvious to me, however, that most ways that someone
would initiate a playdate would *not* imply that you were putting the
moves on the dad!

Perhaps the fact that I had worked in a field dominated by men (and so
most of my "work friends" were men) before I was home full time may have
made a difference -- but I felt no more nor less uncomfortable with men
who were nearly strangers than with women, and was no more nor less
likely to invite them over for coffee.

I didn't mean to imply that I was agreeing that it was a major issue -
just that I can see where there is at least a possibility for a
misunderstanding. There have been a couple of stay-at-home dads on my
block, and I never had an issue with them. I wasn't real close friends
with either of them, but that has more to do wih personalities than
anything else. Over the years, I've tended to have plenty of male
friends, as well. But since I've also (in my single past) dated a
number of men who started out as friends, I also think the male/female
dynamic does sometimes come into play.

But these Dads are married....no?

Banty

And I think neither of us is so naive as to deny that people have
affairs. ;-)

Irene


Well, right of course, but, first of all, it makes it a whole lot less likely
(at the very least, he'd really be risking others knowing!), and it makes it a
heck of a lot easier to turn him down.

Affairs are a dance of two - no? I guess I think it's rare enough a
possibility, and something that the female parent sould be able to deal with if
she's a bona fide adult.

Come to think of it - this isn't the *real* issue, is it?

The *real* issue is what the mom's *husband* thinks of it, isn't it.

I dont' have one of those; I can make these assessments for myself.

Banty