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#161
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
"Vicki" wrote in message
... "Give us complete control over your children. If you don't like it you can homeschool" I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm scarcely in favor of children cutting school willy-nilly, but this trend towards giving schools more and more power over children's lives and activities and giving parents less and less strikes me as far from the "spirit of" educational reform, which was supposed to be about parental involvement and choice. Right? -- Be well, Barbara (Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [19mo] mom) This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop: "Use repeatedly for severe damage." -- Directions on shampoo bottle Daddy: You're up with the chickens this morning. Aurora: No, I'm up with my dolls! All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful. Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman |
#162
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
"Circe" wrote in message news:%iXnb.46654$hp5.9943@fed1read04... "Donna Metler" wrote in message . .. "toto" wrote in message ... On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:16:47 -0800, "Circe" wrote: My neighbor, who is a kindergarten teacher herself, just took her first grader out of school for a little over a week on an independent study contract. I have a hard time believing she would do this to another teacher if she thought it would create a huge burden for that teacher. I would suggest that the early grades are easier to do this in than the later grades. If a child is reading well in first grade and is up to speed on math skills some time off might not cause a problem. I agree with that assessment. In addition, starting in grade 3, standardized test scores count against the school. Depending on the state, it could be every year, or just specific ones. The real crisis years here are 3rd, 5th, and 8th, although students are tested in grades 1-8, with exit tests in high school subjects. Well, unless I see some evidence that the new California tests are a vast improvement, both in content and scoring, over the old Stanford 9s, my kids won't be taking them, so no one need worry that their non-attendance will negatively affect test scores (not that I plan on taking them out, mind you). While I realize that the school is under a mandate to test 95% of its students, sitting the test is optional for any individual student. And by the time my kids are graduating high school, I'm pretty certain that the fallacies of NCLB will be wildly apparent to everyone because every single school in the US will be failing by its standards and much of this testing mania (including the exit exams) will have passed. But perhaps I'm too much the optimist... And if more than 5% of the parents take this option, every year for the next three years, the school faces state takeover. Not a good thing. While it may eventually end with all schools failing, the results for a school on the low performing list, and for students in that school are MORE boring workbooks, MORE test prep, LESS hands on, fun learning activities, and LESS real education. Oh, and MORE standardized and school-based testing (My school has tested all students at least twice already this year on standardized-type tests, including kindergarten) So by sparing your children the 1 week of testing, they may end up in a test-crazed situation all year long. Not good. -- Be well, Barbara (Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [19mo] mom) This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop: "Use repeatedly for severe damage." -- Directions on shampoo bottle Daddy: You're up with the chickens this morning. Aurora: No, I'm up with my dolls! All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful. Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman |
#163
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
H Schinske wrote in :
[snip] My cynical thinking on this is that the math talents are less ignore-able than the reading. For one thing, kids who read at a high level don't always read at their highest level -- I read plenty of Ruth Chew (easy readers, but very well-written and good stories) at the same time as I was reading William Mayne or Elizabeth Enright or Frances Hodgson Burnett, or for that matter dipping into Dickens and Charlotte Bronte. For another, lots of people think of all "children's books" (that aren't obviously easy readers, nor yet big thick things with small print) at about the same level. They have NO CLUE how much harder _Tom Sawyer_ is than _The Bobbsey Twins_. Furthermore, you get the "oh, s/he may enjoy it, but s/he doesn't REALLY UNDERSTAND what s/he's reading, does s/he?" [snip] To some extent, I think it may also be because reading is 'fun' and doing maths workbooks is 'not fun'. So the 9yo who is reading, is doing something normal, even if chosing Lord of the Rings is unusual. The kid who is doing high-level maths is doing something unusual - imagine doing maths problems for fun? - and hence what they are doing is more likely to be scrutenised closely. -- Penny Gaines UK mum to three |
#164
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
"Donna Metler" wrote in message
... "Circe" wrote in message news:%iXnb.46654$hp5.9943@fed1read04... "Donna Metler" wrote in message . .. In addition, starting in grade 3, standardized test scores count against the school. Depending on the state, it could be every year, or just specific ones. The real crisis years here are 3rd, 5th, and 8th, although students are tested in grades 1-8, with exit tests in high school subjects. Well, unless I see some evidence that the new California tests are a vast improvement, both in content and scoring, over the old Stanford 9s, my kids won't be taking them, so no one need worry that their non-attendance will negatively affect test scores (not that I plan on taking them out, mind you). While I realize that the school is under a mandate to test 95% of its students, sitting the test is optional for any individual student. And by the time my kids are graduating high school, I'm pretty certain that the fallacies of NCLB will be wildly apparent to everyone because every single school in the US will be failing by its standards and much of this testing mania (including the exit exams) will have passed. But perhaps I'm too much the optimist... And if more than 5% of the parents take this option, every year for the next three years, the school faces state takeover. Not a good thing. To the contrary, if more than 5% of parents in most schools begin to *refuse* to allow their children to be subjected to these absurd tests that foolishly waste classroom time and resources (both human and financial), that rarely reflect the curriculum accurately, and that wind up producing results that are consistently both misinterpreted and misrepresented, I strongly suspect that the testing mania will come to an end. While it may eventually end with all schools failing, the results for a school on the low performing list, and for students in that school are MORE boring workbooks, MORE test prep, LESS hands on, fun learning activities, and LESS real education. Oh, and MORE standardized and school-based testing (My school has tested all students at least twice already this year on standardized-type tests, including kindergarten) I hear you. Believe me, I do. But I ca So by sparing your children the 1 week of testing, they may end up in a test-crazed situation all year long. Not good. Ah, but I'm not doing it to "spare my children" from taking the tests. I'm doing it because I am diametrically opposed, both philosophically and professionally (I am an instructional designer with *some* clue about curriculum design and evaluation, after all), to the tests that have been used. As I said, if I can see some evidence that the new CAT test really *is* tied to the curriculum and that "consistent improvement" standards will not be based on increases in percentile ranks but rather on getting more children to achieve "proficiency", I don't have a problem with it. If it continues the previous model of effectively insisting that the school continue to achieve a higher percentile ranking on the tests in each succeeding year or risk being targeted is failing, then frankly, I'll boycott it, even if that means the school NCLB *will* eventually result in EVERY school failing. Unless you believe that autistic children and those with Down Syndrome and other forms of serious retardation are going to achieve proficiency in all subject matter by the time they reach the 12th grade, that is... -- Be well, Barbara (Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [19mo] mom) This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop: "Use repeatedly for severe damage." -- Directions on shampoo bottle Daddy: You're up with the chickens this morning. Aurora: No, I'm up with my dolls! All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful. Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman |
#165
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
In article ,
dragonlady says... In article , Banty wrote: In article , dragonlady says... In article , Penny Gaines wrote: Banty wrote in : Amazing what use can be made of summer and spring and holiday and other breaks. Say - Thanksgiving break is coming right up in a scant few weeks! What a wonderful time to visit a family member who may not be with the world much longer. Doesn't that depend on whether you think the relative will still be around for Thanksgiving? If they are really ill, maybe that four weeks is too long to wait. I would add that the four days we got off for Thanksgiving might not be enough time. At least for me, getting TO my relatives takes a full day and costs a lot of money; spending the $$ to spend only two days there is problematic. However, by adding 3 days out of school and work, one could travel on a Saturday, stay for a full week, and travel back on a Sunday. Oh - well, yanno what? Need more travel time?? Just sooo happens that the VERY NEXT MONTH, right after the 5 day Thanksgiving break, there's whooooole long two-week - what do they call it now? - WINTER HOLIDAY break. Very handy for those longer trips, unless said relative truly is at death's door. Sorry to be snide, but there's ALWAYS going to be reasons like this that people give that they just haaaave to take the kids out now or this-or-that won't work out just as conveniently as can be. If it's important, you work around it. Maybe said relative really should have been visitied in August. Death's door ain't exactly the time to make those last connections anyway in just about all but immediate-family cases. But, hey, since some folks think they can take the kids out just ANY time, why bother to have planned that. When the reasoning gets weak, it's apparent that this is rationalizing that's going on. Some families will do whatever, whatever the consequences, and that's the problem. Banty No need to get snotty to me; I was merely pointing out that the 4 days of Thanksgiving break is not always enough time to visit family when a family visit is necessary. Sometimes, family is a LONG way off. It's frustrating to hear the "yeah buts". People say "its FAMILY time, and we CAN'T DO IT OTHERWISE IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE" Well, *any* trip with parents can be said to be 'family time', and "we can't do it otherwise" too often means "we can't do this trip and the one we already have planned for summer and get the deck built this year and...and..." The thing is, if such requests were true (dying relative), and truly cannot be done on the 365-180 days a year, they'd be rare requests. People and institutions are willing to make way for rare requests. Think of approaching your boss for 1 day's sanity time if you've only taken off 3 days the past three years, vs. approaching your boss for 1 day's sanity time if you've taken off 20 days in the past two months. The OP could do her visit before Thanksgiving, few questions asked, because the OP would not have had other absences, and teachers wouldn't have already had it up to here with the 'we gotta visit grandma once a month so we'll be taking off two days every month for family time Hey It's Family' and similar stuff. Privelege extended and not abused. Since my kids started school, I have not been faced with a need to make a trip home to see a dying relative one last time. I have NOT gone home for my father's surgeries, though had they not gone well I might have. However, I have had friends in that position: when a call comes that says Mom or Dad are terminal, and only expected to live another three months at best, I, for one, would be hard pressed to criticise someone for taking their kids out of school for a few days to see them one last time. If they try to use a llong weekend (and that's all Thanksgiving break really is) to minimize the time away from school and still make the visit long enough to make sense I think that's probably a good idea. The winter break may well be pushing it too far off, plus that can be an extremely difficult (and more expensive) time to try to travel with kids. Sure, it can happen for real where you'd really have to go. That would be a relatively rare event - the kind people and institutions normally would be inclined to accomodate. But if its because otherwise it'd be 'more expensive'?? Hey, since the school breaks are peak travel times ('cause of the rest of us poor honest slobs who actually do try not to take our kids out of school, y'know), it can ALWAYS be said that it would be more expensive not to take the kids out of school for non-peak travel times. Most certainly not a rare case. So I'm not convinced by that, and I dont' blame schools for not being convinced by that. Banty |
#166
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:39:02 -0800, "Circe" wrote:
And by the time my kids are graduating high school, I'm pretty certain that the fallacies of NCLB will be wildly apparent to everyone because every single school in the US will be failing by its standards and much of this testing mania (including the exit exams) will have passed. But perhaps I'm too much the optimist... That is the point of the NCLB. Don't you know that the whole idea is to destroy the public school system so that the poor have no chance at an education at all? -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#167
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:55:20 -0600, "Vicki"
wrote: "toto" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:16:47 -0800, "Circe" wrote: My neighbor, who is a kindergarten teacher herself, just took her first grader out of school for a little over a week on an independent study contract. I have a hard time believing she would do this to another teacher if she thought it would create a huge burden for that teacher. I would suggest that the early grades are easier to do this in than the later grades. If a child is reading well in first grade and is up to speed on math skills some time off might not cause a problem. But it sets a precedent. And I have found that most kids cannot take so much time off once they are past the elementary level and still manage to understand the work, particularly in mathematics. I found mathematics to be the easiest to understand without a teachers help. Picking up on symbolism in readings for English lit was much more difficult--maybe b/c there were fewer aids for this, and you couldn't check your work. Perhaps so, but where many students fail is in algebra because they must translate words into mathematical symbols with logical rigor. Also, it's not the plug in and plug out and solving the numbers that most math teachers are after but the ability to figure out which formula to use, possibly to derive the formula for yourself and the ability to explain why certain things work (proof). And proof on the mathematical level does not come easy to most either. I had a very good honors student who still got things backwards when he attempted a geometry proof and who would argue about it too though he was incorrect in his reasoning. Mathematical proofs don't have the wiggle room that persuasive essays have. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#168
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
In article f_Xnb.46659$hp5.28348@fed1read04, Circe says...
"Donna Metler" wrote in message .. . "Circe" wrote in message news:%iXnb.46654$hp5.9943@fed1read04... "Donna Metler" wrote in message . .. In addition, starting in grade 3, standardized test scores count against the school. Depending on the state, it could be every year, or just specific ones. The real crisis years here are 3rd, 5th, and 8th, although students are tested in grades 1-8, with exit tests in high school subjects. Well, unless I see some evidence that the new California tests are a vast improvement, both in content and scoring, over the old Stanford 9s, my kids won't be taking them, so no one need worry that their non-attendance will negatively affect test scores (not that I plan on taking them out, mind you). While I realize that the school is under a mandate to test 95% of its students, sitting the test is optional for any individual student. And by the time my kids are graduating high school, I'm pretty certain that the fallacies of NCLB will be wildly apparent to everyone because every single school in the US will be failing by its standards and much of this testing mania (including the exit exams) will have passed. But perhaps I'm too much the optimist... And if more than 5% of the parents take this option, every year for the next three years, the school faces state takeover. Not a good thing. To the contrary, if more than 5% of parents in most schools begin to *refuse* to allow their children to be subjected to these absurd tests that foolishly waste classroom time and resources (both human and financial), that rarely reflect the curriculum accurately, and that wind up producing results that are consistently both misinterpreted and misrepresented, I strongly suspect that the testing mania will come to an end. I hear what you're saying (and loathe the tests too - I won't even let teachers bring up tests as a reason why my son should do x or y, other than being rested and breakfasted on the day of the tests). But of course, on the way to this test-free Nirvana, this nationwide surge of High Stakes Civil Disobedience you propose would be disruptive and painful in ways that really woudln't help to convince schools to relax their policies concerning attendance. (Not that something like that shouldn't happen, but it doesn't make a reason to take little Johnny to Hawaii). In the meantime, the teachers hafta deal with what they hafta deal with. And fourth graders going to Disney on school time don't help. Cheers, Banty |
#169
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
"Banty" wrote in message ... In article , dragonlady says... In article , Penny Gaines wrote: Banty wrote in : Amazing what use can be made of summer and spring and holiday and other breaks. Say - Thanksgiving break is coming right up in a scant few weeks! What a wonderful time to visit a family member who may not be with the world much longer. Doesn't that depend on whether you think the relative will still be around for Thanksgiving? If they are really ill, maybe that four weeks is too long to wait. I would add that the four days we got off for Thanksgiving might not be enough time. At least for me, getting TO my relatives takes a full day and costs a lot of money; spending the $$ to spend only two days there is problematic. However, by adding 3 days out of school and work, one could travel on a Saturday, stay for a full week, and travel back on a Sunday. Oh - well, yanno what? Need more travel time?? Just sooo happens that the VERY NEXT MONTH, right after the 5 day Thanksgiving break, there's whooooole long two-week - what do they call it now? - WINTER HOLIDAY break. Very handy for those longer trips, unless said relative truly is at death's door. Sorry to be snide, but there's ALWAYS going to be reasons like this that people give that they just haaaave to take the kids out now or this-or-that won't work out just as conveniently as can be. If it's important, you work around it. Maybe said relative really should have been visitied in August. Death's door ain't exactly the time to make those last connections anyway in just about all but immediate-family cases. But, hey, since some folks think they can take the kids out just ANY time, why bother to have planned that. When the reasoning gets weak, it's apparent that this is rationalizing that's going on. Some families will do whatever, whatever the consequences, and that's the problem. You're right that we'll do this whatever the consequences. And I don't think that's the problem. The problem is that a school feels they have the authority to second-guess the decisions we are making for our family. Who is the parent? Who has to decide what is in the best interest of this child? I don't think the school should be privy to the details of our family life so *they* can *decide* whether our choice is, what, adequate? We had planned to visit last summer but the effects of treatment were pretty bad then. Now she is between treatments--her doctor is very agressive and will start another round of chemo/radiation. This is the time. You don't plan illness, or death. Maybe she will recover. You know, that is our hope. That is our prayer. But we will see her, and her 6 yo daughter, before she starts this next round of treatment. I can't imagine a family thinking twice about this. To avoid truancy, eh? To save the teacher from the difficulty of recordkeeping, eh? How do you judge the school to be so all-knowing about what is best for my child and my family? I think that is arrogant. I hope this slice of life on the internet is not representative of what people believe. I think the snobbery about people's decisions to go ski-ing, or to Disneyland, is ridiculous too. You don't know what is best for that family. Maybe they are working at saving their marriage. Maybe they are reconnecting as a family. Our first trip to Mexico was instigated suddenly--my folks decided to take my older sister away from her peer group. She had started doing drugs and was running with a bad crowd. We were away for a month in a foreign culture with none of the old distractions. It worked. My sister figured out what was important, and what was not so smart, and when we returned North, she started fresh, with a new group of friends, and a new attitude. My *parents* decided what they thought would work, and hey, it did. I can just hear the snobbery if parents did that today--"Oh, that family thinks they are so special, they can just pull their kids out of school for two weeks and go to Mexico. Who do they think they are? Don't they think about what's best for their kids? Their poor teachers. Send them the truancy letter. Fine them." Oh enough. The parents and the kids live with their life choices. Not the teacher. When does the state, the school, have the authority to step in? I don't believe in totalitarian government. The arguments I hear here are not about what is best for the child, and mostly not about education. They are about recordkeeping, testing, grading, minor inconvenience... loss of total control by the school. Small potatoes. |
#170
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
In article , Vicki says...
"Banty" wrote in message ... In article , dragonlady says... In article , Penny Gaines wrote: Banty wrote in : Amazing what use can be made of summer and spring and holiday and other breaks. Say - Thanksgiving break is coming right up in a scant few weeks! What a wonderful time to visit a family member who may not be with the world much longer. Doesn't that depend on whether you think the relative will still be around for Thanksgiving? If they are really ill, maybe that four weeks is too long to wait. I would add that the four days we got off for Thanksgiving might not be enough time. At least for me, getting TO my relatives takes a full day and costs a lot of money; spending the $$ to spend only two days there is problematic. However, by adding 3 days out of school and work, one could travel on a Saturday, stay for a full week, and travel back on a Sunday. Oh - well, yanno what? Need more travel time?? Just sooo happens that the VERY NEXT MONTH, right after the 5 day Thanksgiving break, there's whooooole long two-week - what do they call it now? - WINTER HOLIDAY break. Very handy for those longer trips, unless said relative truly is at death's door. Sorry to be snide, but there's ALWAYS going to be reasons like this that people give that they just haaaave to take the kids out now or this-or-that won't work out just as conveniently as can be. If it's important, you work around it. Maybe said relative really should have been visitied in August. Death's door ain't exactly the time to make those last connections anyway in just about all but immediate-family cases. But, hey, since some folks think they can take the kids out just ANY time, why bother to have planned that. When the reasoning gets weak, it's apparent that this is rationalizing that's going on. Some families will do whatever, whatever the consequences, and that's the problem. You're right that we'll do this whatever the consequences. Yep. And I don't think that's the problem. The problem is that a school feels they have the authority to second-guess the decisions we are making for our family. Who is the parent? Who has to decide what is in the best interest of this child? I don't think the school should be privy to the details of our family life so *they* can *decide* whether our choice is, what, adequate? We had planned to visit last summer but the effects of treatment were pretty bad then. Now she is between treatments--her doctor is very agressive and will start another round of chemo/radiation. This is the time. You don't plan illness, or death. Maybe she will recover. You know, that is our hope. That is our prayer. But we will see her, and her 6 yo daughter, before she starts this next round of treatment. I can't imagine a family thinking twice about this. To avoid truancy, eh? To save the teacher from the difficulty of recordkeeping, eh? How do you judge the school to be so all-knowing about what is best for my child and my family? I think that is arrogant. I hope this slice of life on the internet is not representative of what people believe. If such requests as yours were relatively rare, there probably *woudln't* be questions asked, except to get a general idea. And the extra resources and work and time would get done because people like to be decent human beings. But if folks get the feeling they've been taken advantage of and bothered too many times for the same favor, or resources get tight, then things get more scrutinized. Given your record - yeah, there's a problem. And not only for you, for other families too by reflection of your actions. Public schools simply can't afford to extend themselves to everyone if your attitudes are at all common. I think the snobbery about people's decisions to go ski-ing, or to Disneyland, is ridiculous too. You don't know what is best for that family. Maybe they are working at saving their marriage. Maybe they are reconnecting as a family. Our first trip to Mexico was instigated suddenly--my folks decided to take my older sister away from her peer group. She had started doing drugs and was running with a bad crowd. We were away for a month in a foreign culture with none of the old distractions. It worked. My sister figured out what was important, and what was not so smart, and when we returned North, she started fresh, with a new group of friends, and a new attitude. My *parents* decided what they thought would work, and hey, it did. I can just hear the snobbery if parents did that today--"Oh, that family thinks they are so special, they can just pull their kids out of school for two weeks and go to Mexico. Who do they think they are? Don't they think about what's best for their kids? Their poor teachers. Send them the truancy letter. Fine them." Oh enough. The parents and the kids live with their life choices. Not the teacher. When does the state, the school, have the authority to step in? I don't believe in totalitarian government. Yeah yeah. And little Sue needs a big sister to watch her, so teen Laurie has to stay home two days a week, and our car broke down but whoopsie little Johnny keeps missing the bus, and... and... The arguments I hear here are not about what is best for the child, and mostly not about education. They are about recordkeeping, testing, grading, minor inconvenience... loss of total control by the school. Small potatoes. Yeah - must be "Small potatoes." They're just, y'know - - how your actions affect others. Banty |
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