So is this how weaning happens?

Since the birth of my DS (now age 10 months) I have been gently encouraging
my DD (aged 4) to nurse less. Since she was waking up to nurse more than DS
in the beginning I night weaned her in short order over 3 days. No problem.
We are basically down to first thing in the morning and last thing before
bed, during which she is restricted timing-wise to the singing of one song,
because it is extremely intolerable for me as she does not nurse gently.
This was the compromise for me that allowed her to keep nursing for this
extra year.

For about the last 2 weeks or so, she cannot wait for the letdown, and if
the milk doesn't flow immediately she tries to switch nurse which I cannot
tolerate. It also seems I cannot letdown for her now, so she'll get a
couple of drops leftover from when it was flowing from her brother's nursing
session, but then nothing. Seems she is gradually losing the ability to
nurse properly and make the letdown occur. Is this how it normally goes?
It's very frustrating for her, and I feel that she thinks it's my fault -
she tries all sorts of things, including squeezing my breasts, which I don't
allow either. So the nursing is becoming very stressful, and I feel bad
because this is the one time of day she is "allowed" to nurse (she doesn't
always take the morning one) and I can't give any milk to her.

Have others experienced this??? Larry?? What should I do? Or is nothing
the way to go and just accept that she's probably in the process of weaning
(which I would be happy about).

TIA,
CY

Dear CY,

I am currently on my second tandem nursing pair. I slowly weaned my
first daughter ending when she turned five and am now nursing my four
year old son along with my toddler. Your situation seems somewhat
familiar. I experienced lots of nursing aversion with my first
daughter and unconsciously employed many weaning strategies. She
showed many signs of stress and her behavior deteriorated. When I
realized what was happening, I made a difficult decision to be more
tolerant of her nursing and her behavior improved. Later, I encouraged
weaning at a slower pace, she was ready, if not completely willing, and
we managed weaning without too much stress for her.

Your daughter nurses for the length of one song, can't get a letdown,
tries to switch nurse and nurses roughly. It may be that it would take
more than the length of one song for her to get a letdown while nursing
gently. Has she always nursed roughly, or did this develop over time?
Since she wants a letdown, it seems to show that she likes the milk and
doesn't just want the closeness. Maybe a special bedtime
beverage/snack before toothbrushing would do?

You really want to wean and feel aversion to nursing her. This is an
important factor for how you handle the current situation. If you look
at your daughter's behavior as a whole,
it may help you to decide whether the weaning process is going well.
Is she misbehaving or showing other signs of stress, or is her behavior
normal? If it is normal, you may decide that the process is working
OK. If her behavior has become worse and worse and she is showing many
signs of stress, you might decide to modify your strategies.

Good Luck,
Betsy

"betsy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dear CY,

I am currently on my second tandem nursing pair.

God bless you!

I slowly weaned my first daughter ending when she turned five and am now
nursing my four
year old son along with my toddler. Your situation seems somewhat
familiar. I experienced lots of nursing aversion with my first
daughter and unconsciously employed many weaning strategies. She
showed many signs of stress and her behavior deteriorated. When I
realized what was happening, I made a difficult decision to be more
tolerant of her nursing and her behavior improved. Later, I encouraged
weaning at a slower pace, she was ready, if not completely willing, and
we managed weaning without too much stress for her.


Yes, this happened and I tried weaning her a year ago, but decided to become
more tolerant and it definitely has helped. I think my DD nurses out of
habit more than anything.

Your daughter nurses for the length of one song, can't get a letdown,
tries to switch nurse and nurses roughly. It may be that it would take
more than the length of one song for her to get a letdown while nursing
gently.

Yes, I think this is probably it, but if she nurses longer, I get SO squirmy
and I just cannot bear it. My aversion to nursing her is REALLY strong.
Even if I nurse her after my DS has created the letdown though, she still
doesn't seem to be able to extract the milk.


Has she always nursed roughly, or did this develop over time?

No, she has always been a rough nurser

Since she wants a letdown, it seems to show that she likes the milk and
doesn't just want the closeness.

I am not sure if she really does like the milk - the couple of times that I
pumped, she has said she doesn't like it, even freshly pumped in a cup, or
sippy cup. She said it was "yucky"! She wants the "whole package" I think,
so you are right in a way.

Maybe a special bedtime
beverage/snack before toothbrushing would do?

I'm really not against nursing her for, even, another year, as long as it's
just at night, it's her frustration of not getting the milk that's
perplexing me. I am not sure that a substitute would work at this point
anyway.

You really want to wean and feel aversion to nursing her.

Yes, I do, but recognize that she really needs it and is emotionally
attached to nursing. I tried a year ago to wean, and now I feel that it is
OK for me to set limits, which she has accepted remarkably well. She does
not ask to nurse during the day, except if she is tired and then we just
talk about when it is appropriate to nurse (bedtime, first thing in the
morning). Before I set these limits she would literally be attached to me
all day long and I could not sit down without being literally mauled. Like
I said, she is not gentle, and I was getting extremely resentful of the time
we were together. Since the limits we are back "in sync".

This is an
important factor for how you handle the current situation. If you look
at your daughter's behavior as a whole,
it may help you to decide whether the weaning process is going well.
Is she misbehaving or showing other signs of stress, or is her behavior
normal? If it is normal, you may decide that the process is working
OK. If her behavior has become worse and worse and she is showing many
signs of stress, you might decide to modify your strategies.

Difficult to tell if her behavior is worsening - she is deliberately
naughty, but I think this is an age thing more than anything. She is
extremely smart for her age, and is a very good debater. My strategies have
been consistent over the past few months and nothing has changed other than
not getting a letdown. I'm not really trying to wean her, though if this is
what is happening, I would be glad. I guess what I need to do is NOT put a
time limit on how long she nurses, but I really don't see how I can do
that - I'd want to crawl out of my skin - she would nurse for hours if I let
her, I think. Anyway, I appreciate your imput, thank you so much for taking
the time to share your experiences

CY


Good Luck,

Thank you.

Betsy

"CY" wrote and I snipped:

For about the last 2 weeks or so, she cannot wait for the letdown, and if
the milk doesn't flow immediately she tries to switch nurse which I cannot
tolerate. It also seems I cannot letdown for her now, so she'll get a
couple of drops leftover from when it was flowing from her brother's
nursing session, but then nothing. Seems she is gradually losing the
ability to nurse properly and make the letdown occur. Is this how it
normally goes?

When I read this, I wondered if your feelings about nursing your DD can
inhibit letdown. Not to judge, just wondering. Maybe you dislike it so
much, you can't relax. If you think that's the case, then I think it's time
to wean. IMO, weaning should happen when either of you is ready to stop.

As for my experience, I would have been okay to wean DS when he was 2.5
years old, but he still seemed to need it. I never got to complete
aversion, though. I think the fact that he's my youngest, helped me to
carry on. About 2 months before his 4th birthday, I broached the subject of
stopping at 4. With a couple of reminders, that's what we did, and it
really wasn't traumatic. I guess I was surprised.

Good luck,
-Patty, mom of 1+2

"CY" wrote in message news:CueYf.78626$oL.69084@attbi_s71...
snip
I am not sure if she really does like the milk - the couple of times that
I pumped, she has said she doesn't like it, even freshly pumped in a cup,
or sippy cup. She said it was "yucky"! She wants the "whole package" I
think, so you are right in a way.

snip
Difficult to tell if her behavior is worsening - she is deliberately
naughty, but I think this is an age thing more than anything. She is
extremely smart for her age, and is a very good debater. snip

I totally know nothing about weaning, so take this with a huge grain of
salt...
When I put these two comments together, one thing I think of is maybe she's
not nursing out of habit, maybe she's nursing out of control? (I don't mean
she's out of control, I mean that she wants to _have_ control) She's at an
"assert her independence" age along with a need for closeness and
predictability, so maybe the nursing is a way of testing that she can make
you do something you don't want to do because you love her? Not sure that
theory would help you wean any faster/easier, but I suppose it's possible
that giving her additional ways to gain closeness under her terms would make
her decide to wean (ie she gets to choose the bedtime story/song or she gets
to choose between nursing and being read a book or other favorite
activity...I'm imagining this would be in addition to whatever other bedtime
rituals you have)
Anyway, I'm totally not qualified to offer much advice (my little one is 4
months old!), but I was just struck by those two quotes when taken together.
Hope you all come up with a good compromise/solution!

Amy

"V." wrote in message news:596dnZeNe-

When I put these two comments together, one thing I think of is maybe
she's not nursing out of habit, maybe she's nursing out of control?
(I don't mean
she's out of control, I mean that she wants to _have_ control)

I don't know about the OP but I can vouch for that being an issue with some
kids ;-) There was hell to pay for a long time after I weaned Luke. It
really was a big comfort thing for him I know, and not a great time to wean,
but my oh my....he wanted control over *everything* after I weaned him. The
biggest part of that was just his personality but it really went over the
top when I weaned. He also started to bite like a maniac. Nursing can be a
very complicated thing especially when some poor addicted toddler gets a
basket case mother like me, lol. Well, not really a basket case unless I'm
nursing to long ;-)


--
Nikki, mama to
Hunter 4/99
Luke 4/01
Thing One and Thing Two due 4/06

"CY" wrote in message news:CueYf.78626$oL.69084@attbi_s71...

"betsy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dear CY,

I am currently on my second tandem nursing pair.

God bless you!

I slowly weaned my first daughter ending when she turned five and am now
nursing my four
year old son along with my toddler. Your situation seems somewhat
familiar. I experienced lots of nursing aversion with my first
daughter and unconsciously employed many weaning strategies. She
showed many signs of stress and her behavior deteriorated. When I
realized what was happening, I made a difficult decision to be more
tolerant of her nursing and her behavior improved. Later, I encouraged
weaning at a slower pace, she was ready, if not completely willing, and
we managed weaning without too much stress for her.


Yes, this happened and I tried weaning her a year ago, but decided to
become more tolerant and it definitely has helped. I think my DD nurses
out of habit more than anything.

Your daughter nurses for the length of one song, can't get a letdown,
tries to switch nurse and nurses roughly. It may be that it would take
more than the length of one song for her to get a letdown while nursing
gently.

Yes, I think this is probably it, but if she nurses longer, I get SO
squirmy and I just cannot bear it. My aversion to nursing her is REALLY
strong. Even if I nurse her after my DS has created the letdown though,
she still doesn't seem to be able to extract the milk.

I think mother should BF until either mother or child is ready to quit. In
this case, mother is ready to quit. I think your aversion to nursing her is
nature's way of telling you it's time to quit. I don't think it's healthy
to nurse her when you so strongly desire not to.

Dear CY,

My kids have never wanted my milk in a cup either. It is great that
you have been able to be so consistent with your DD. It is really hard
to be consistent in a situation like this where you both have strong
feelings.

I see a few options here. Others may see more.

1) Talk with her about how she is getting bigger and isn't able to
nurse getting milk like a baby anymore. Tell her that you will be
having new special ways for her to be close to her while she relaxes.
Some things that worked for us were lying in bed holding hands while I
made up new stories and told them and giving an extra long snuggling
time. Slowly make a transition between her current no-milk nursing and
a substitute.

or

2) Work with her to improve her latch. This might help her get milk
and help you avoid some of the aversion. Doing your own breast massage
or compression may help her get milk. Change the nursing situation in
other ways so it causes less nursing aversion for you. Some things
that have worked for me are planning nursing the older one at a time
when I am fuller and getting a nursing situation where I can sit and
focus my attention elsewhere. I can type at the computer or match and
fold socks etc. This also might help in the process of weaning since
she would have to choose between attention from you and nursing.

I hope this helps.

Betsy

CY writes:

: Have others experienced this??? Larry?? What should I do? Or is nothing
: the way to go and just accept that she's probably in the process of weaning
: (which I would be happy about).

OK. I know what you mean. I am probably not much help because both
Clara and Niel were very patient, and would be VERY accomodating to
avoid ending a nursing session. I can remember that Monika would have
the same discomfort issues you described, and would tell them, "either
be gentle or I will end the nursing session." The threat would have
an immediate salutory effect.

Given that, Monika did little to limit nursing sessions other than
distracting them during the day. Clara weaned on her own, but
verbally expressed sadness over it for the next year or so. Niel
had to be encouraged to give it up for his 6th birthday, but on the
other hand, never looked back.

Larry