Spanking-related Child Fatality

Billy, most of em don't have kids. Chris doesn't.

His bluster is all THEORETICAL.

Never has he parented a child. Never changed an overfilled diaper--never
waited for a teen to come home so very late.

Never grieved when the kid did not make the travel soccer team, nor cry when he
missed out on his college of choice.

You see, all he does is write. And raising a child is a very different
exercise from all the theoreticals in the world.

It is one of the most humbling, challenging, exciting and scary endeavors one
can embark upon.

I advise all parents to be to love their mate.

Because any children you have will reflect that choice and either gladden your
heart or make you question your judgement.

The Prophet author states it this way:

"Your children are NOT YOUR CHILDREN. But the product of life's longing for
itself."

Be mature, informed, ready to learn, not inflexible, kind, full of love, ready
to comfort, and understanding, above all when you make the decision to have
children.

It is a life's vocation.....and a journey into the real,the practical, and the
studied.

If you have not experienced children, you really almost have no business
commenting.

We all KNOW THE BEST THEORETICAL COURSE to pursue. Ah, but it's the
permutations and daily mundanities which challenge parents and parents beliefs.

NO kid follows a textbook. They march to their own internal drummer and pay
homage to gods which may be quite different than yours.

You, Billy, reflect just what experts have spent many years studying. The
mean streets can be a DEMANDING TEACHER.

Billy observed about the fanatacism of Chris. BTW, he states he was
horrifically beaten by his apparently single Mom.

I hope he chooses to honor her for allowing him to participate in this
discussion.

Subject: Spanking-related Child Fatality
From: "billy f"
Date: 7/15/2003 7:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Hi Doan
The more I read these anti spankers post the more I realize how crazy they
really are. I mean really these people seem to think that children are lab
rats. These experts take a group of kids that are spanked, a small
percentage of the 90% of kids that are. Most of the ones they choose come
from poor low income families. They study their behavior and if it varies at
all from what they want to see they brand them as being antisocial, violent
and having a lower IQ. I wonder if a little discrimination to the poor may
and the failure to include religious families may have been present . How
many of these experts do you think grew up in bad neighborhoods and
experienced first hand how bad life can be? Most if not all have lived
sheltered lives in nice neighborhoods. They sit around and analyze why
people do the things they do with a bunch of random studies. The truth is
they do not have a clue. Book smarts and street smarts are to different
things and if I had to choose one or the other for my children I would
choose street smarts. I wonder how many of our expert friends could make it
on the streets without the law there to protect them? I also wonder how many
of they have had to live in a high crime area. Children do not become
violent from being spanked they become that way from the tough neighborhoods
they grow up in. It just that due to the high stress lives the families
live, the parents own dysfunctional upbringing and the lack of education the
parents are more likely to strike out a their children. This does not
account for the parent that spank that are educated, come from a loving
religious upbringing and live in nice areas.

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 11 Jul 2003, Catherine Woodgold wrote:

"billy f" ) writes:
Just because
children die from spanking does not mean than all forms of spanking is
bad.

No, but I believe that all forms of spanking are counterproductive,
for other reasons.

And you are entitled to your own belief, just don't force your belief
on others! ;-)

I really don't think you understand the concept of spanking.

Ad hominem.

Thin-skinned! ;-)

Just because some parents abuse spanking does not mean that all
forms of it should be banned.

I agree. However, there are also other reasons to ban
spanking: to reduce the amount of violence by parents
towards children; also to reduce the amount of violence
committed by the children, as children or after they
grow up. Studies show that children subjected to
violence or spanking by their parents are more likely
to commit crimes later on.

Correlation is not causation! In fact, Straus & Mouradian (1998)
found that the more non-cp used, the higher the antisocialbe behaviors.
Are you suggesting that we should ban non-cp alternatives also???

Also, a democratic country has the option of banning
spanking as a method of controlling abuse of spanking.
This is not a "should", as you say, but it is an option.

Sure! As long as it ask the people first. Must I remind you that
90%+ of parents in the USA spanked their kids? Do you really
believe in democracy or you just don't count spanking parents? ;-)

Doan


--
Cathy

Fern5827 wrote:
: Billy, most of em don't have kids. Chris doesn't.

That is correct.

I do not need to be a parent to be against domestic violence against
children, which includes so-called "spanking." Analogously, I do not need
to be married to be against wife-beating.

: His bluster is all THEORETICAL.

A significant body of published peer-reviewed data has accumulated
over the years bearing on the subject of spanking. The more scientific
scrutiny is brought to bear on this practice, the worse it looks. Even
when researchers expecting and hoping to find long term benefits from
spanking perform studies the results show that spanked children turn out
worse in the long run (Gunnoe & Mariner, 1997), thus replicating other
longitudinal studies which obtained similar results (Straus et al., 1997,
MacMillan et al., 1999).

After half a century of research, there is not a single published
peer reviewed study which found evidence of any form of measurable long
term benefit to children from spanking. None. If anyone thinks they can
cite a single example of such a study, they are welcome to do so. I have
been on this newsgroup since its inception in August of 1995 and so far,
no one has been able to. There just aren't any such studies.


Chris


REFERENCES


Gunnoe, M.L. & Mariner, C.L. 1997. "Toward a Developmental-Contextual
Model of the effects of Parental Spanking on Children's Aggression."
_Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine_ 151:768-775.

MacMillan, H.L.; Boyle, M.H.; Wong, M.Y.Y.; Duku, E.K.; Fleming, J.E. and
Walsh, C.A. 1999. "Slapping and spanking in childhood and its
association with lifetime prevalence of psychiatric disorders in a general
population sample." _Canadian Medical Association Journal_
161(7):805-809.

Straus, M.A.; Sugarman, D.B. and Giles-Sims, J. 1997. "Corporal
Punishment by Parents and Subsequent Anti-Social Behavior of Children"
_Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine_ 151(8):761-767.

On 24 Jul 2003, Chris wrote:

Fern5827 wrote:
: Billy, most of em don't have kids. Chris doesn't.

That is correct.

LOL! A non-parent telling others how to parent.

I do not need to be a parent to be against domestic violence against
children, which includes so-called "spanking." Analogously, I do not need
to be married to be against wife-beating.

False analogy!

: His bluster is all THEORETICAL.

A significant body of published peer-reviewed data has accumulated
over the years bearing on the subject of spanking. The more scientific
scrutiny is brought to bear on this practice, the worse it looks. Even
when researchers expecting and hoping to find long term benefits from
spanking perform studies the results show that spanked children turn out
worse in the long run (Gunnoe & Mariner, 1997), thus replicating other
longitudinal studies which obtained similar results (Straus et al., 1997,
MacMillan et al., 1999).

Are you citing these studies hoping others would read it or you just
citing it to impress others who would not take the time to read them?
I also see that you stopped citing Straus & Mouradian (1998) which found
that non-spanking alternatives correlated to antisocialbe behavior more
than spanking. Nor did you bother to cite Baumrind & Owens (2001), is it
because it just don't fit into your agenda? ;-)

After half a century of research, there is not a single published
peer reviewed study which found evidence of any form of measurable long
term benefit to children from spanking. None. If anyone thinks they can
cite a single example of such a study, they are welcome to do so. I have
been on this newsgroup since its inception in August of 1995 and so far,
no one has been able to. There just aren't any such studies.

Actually, there is but you just refused to see it! Look below when I
disect your "references". Let me throw the question back to you,
can you cite "single published peer reviewed study which found evidence
of any measurable long term benefit to children" from non-spanking
alternatives??? I have been asking you directly since I came to this
newsgroup in 1998 and so far, all you have given me is a DEAFENNING
SILENCE!


Chris


REFERENCES


Gunnoe, M.L. & Mariner, C.L. 1997. "Toward a Developmental-Contextual
Model of the effects of Parental Spanking on Children's Aggression."
_Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine_ 151:768-775.

The following is a summary of the Gunnoe study:

Title: Spanking and Children's Aggression...
[Abstract, August Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 1997;151:768-775] (c) AMA 1997

Toward a Developmental-Contextual Model of the Effects of Parental Spanking on
Children's Aggression
(Marjorie Lindner Gunnoe, PhD; Carrie Lea Mariner, MA )

Objective:
---------
To challenge the application of an unqualified social learning model to the
study of spanking, positing instead a developmental-contextual model in which
the effects of spanking depend on the meaning children ascribe to spanking.

Design:
------
Population-based survey data from 1112 children aged 4 to 11 years in the
National Survey of Families and Households. Controlled for several family
and child factors including children's baseline aggression.

Main Outcome Measures:
---------------------
Schoolyard fights and antisocial scores on the Behavior Problems Index at the
5-year follow-up.

Results:
-------
Structural equation modeling yielded main effects (P =.05, change in chi
square) of children's age and race; spanking predicted fewer fights for
children aged 4 to 7 years and for children who are black and more fights
for children aged 8 to 11 years and for children who are white. Regression
analyses within subgroups yielded no evidence that spanking fostered
aggression in children younger than 6 years and supported claims of increased
aggression for only 1 subgroup: 8- to 11-year-old white boys in single-mother
families (P =.05, F test).

Conclusions:
-----------
For most children, claims that spanking teaches aggression seem unfounded.
Other preventive effects and harmful effects of spanking may occur depending
on the child and the family context. Further efforts to identify moderators of
the effects of spanking on children's adjustment are necessary.

(Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 1997;151:768-775)

MacMillan, H.L.; Boyle, M.H.; Wong, M.Y.Y.; Duku, E.K.; Fleming, J.E. and
Walsh, C.A. 1999. "Slapping and spanking in childhood and its
association with lifetime prevalence of psychiatric disorders in a general
population sample." _Canadian Medical Association Journal_
161(7):805-809.

This is a cross-sectional study, Chris! The problem with this kind of
the study is, as the authors admitted, the "self-report data on childhood
had no independent validity". The authors even acknowledged that
confounding factors might account for the correlation they reported!
Here is the link to this study for anyone who is interested (Unlike Chris
Dugan, I do want everyone to read the studies. ;-).
http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/201...sue-7/0805.htm

Straus, M.A.; Sugarman, D.B. and Giles-Sims, J. 1997. "Corporal
Punishment by Parents and Subsequent Anti-Social Behavior of Children"
_Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine_ 151(8):761-767.


"We are indebted to Larzelere et al for alerting us to the likelihood that our
no-spanking group includes occasional spankers. To the extent that this is
the case, the decrease in antisocial behavior that we found for children in
the "none" group may indicate an improvement in the behavior of children whose
parents spank, but do so only infrequently. Although that is a plausible
interpretation, data from another study enable us to investigate
this issue by classifying spanking as "never" or "not in the past 6 months,"
or the frequency of corporal punishment (CP) in the previous 6 months.[1] "

[1] -This is the Straus & Mouradian (1998) study, which we now know
that the correlation between non-cp alternatives and antisociable behavior
is even stronger thatn spanking! Is Chris Dugan calling for banning
non-cp alternatives too? :-)

Doan

(Catherine Woodgold) wrote in message ...
"billy f" ) writes:
Children die from abuse not from spanking.

That is simply a matter of definition. You can define
spanking to be "certain acts of striking a child, not
including any acts of striking that result in the
death of the child..."

I would consider that an unnecessarily convoluted definition.

To me the definition of spanking includes the idea that it is not
severe. That is, "spanking" not only doesn't cause death but doesn't
cause any sort of physical injury, only pain of limited duration. I
would use the word "beating" to describe an incident that resulted in
any physical harm, even if it were nothing more than bruises. I think
this is a typical understanding of the word "spanking", at least to
members of my generation.

abacus wrote:

: To me the definition of spanking includes the idea that it is not
: severe. That is, "spanking" not only doesn't cause death but doesn't
: cause any sort of physical injury, only pain of limited duration. I
: would use the word "beating" to describe an incident that resulted in
: any physical harm, even if it were nothing more than bruises. I think
: this is a typical understanding of the word "spanking", at least to
: members of my generation.

Odham's Dictionary of the English Language defines "spanking" as
"A beating with a flat object."

Chris

On 28 Jul 2003, Chris wrote:

abacus wrote:

: To me the definition of spanking includes the idea that it is not
: severe. That is, "spanking" not only doesn't cause death but doesn't
: cause any sort of physical injury, only pain of limited duration. I
: would use the word "beating" to describe an incident that resulted in
: any physical harm, even if it were nothing more than bruises. I think
: this is a typical understanding of the word "spanking", at least to
: members of my generation.

Odham's Dictionary of the English Language defines "spanking" as
"A beating with a flat object."

Chris

LOL! So I guess if you beat your child with a rod than it is not spanking
since the rod is not a flat object! Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS,
are they mutually exclusive? ;-)

Doan

Spanker Mc****** spewed forth thusly:

Odham's Dictionary of the English Language defines "spanking" as
"A beating with a flat object."

Chris


*Exactly* what an asshole like you needs.
LV