Perspective

Hi everyone,

I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some help/ideas
on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.

We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children. Despite
my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in their
things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is strewn
all over and/or torn up. And I am not just saying that it's their rooms that
are a mess, which they are, but the overall house is trashed with their
things. Despite making them clean up everyday (and them balking at us
telling us that they feel like our maids) it has been a daily struggle for
our house to look presentable. We are in the process of moving, and my
husband and I have been working really hard to get our house ready to move.
I understand that my kids are fighting this move. They don't want to leave
their friends and school, which I totally understand and have been very
symphatetic to their feelings. But, we are moving and it seems that they are
doing everything in their power to hender us from what we are trying to do.
I really need their help with daily chores, like dishes, laundry (their own,
not mine), picking up after themselves, etc....... (not just today, but I
think these skills are useful for when they are grown). For example, today
they have the day off of school. I have been painting most of the morning
and they have been either on the computer, playing the keyboard that we have
or watching TV. Our house is absolutely turned upside down and I did mention
this morning that I would like their help. Most of the mess is theirs. Their
trash that they don't pick up, dishes that they have used, toys all over the
floor. I decided to not even bring it up today and see just what they end up
doing today. It's almost 2 o'clock now and as I have said, they have done
nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do in
the same situation?
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

"Sue" wrote in message
...
Hi everyone,

I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some help/ideas
on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.

We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
Despite
my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
their
things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
strewn
all over and/or torn up. And I am not just saying that it's their rooms
that
are a mess, which they are, but the overall house is trashed with their
things. Despite making them clean up everyday (and them balking at us
telling us that they feel like our maids) it has been a daily struggle for
our house to look presentable. We are in the process of moving, and my
husband and I have been working really hard to get our house ready to
move.
I understand that my kids are fighting this move. They don't want to leave
their friends and school, which I totally understand and have been very
symphatetic to their feelings. But, we are moving and it seems that they
are
doing everything in their power to hender us from what we are trying to
do.
I really need their help with daily chores, like dishes, laundry (their
own,
not mine), picking up after themselves, etc....... (not just today, but I
think these skills are useful for when they are grown). For example, today
they have the day off of school. I have been painting most of the morning
and they have been either on the computer, playing the keyboard that we
have
or watching TV. Our house is absolutely turned upside down and I did
mention
this morning that I would like their help. Most of the mess is theirs.
Their
trash that they don't pick up, dishes that they have used, toys all over
the
floor. I decided to not even bring it up today and see just what they end
up
doing today. It's almost 2 o'clock now and as I have said, they have done
nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do
in
the same situation?
--
Sue (mom to three girls)



I do not have kids your age at all. My kids are little. But I picked up this
book on someone's advice. And it speaks to your age kids too.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

It gives me a whole new perspective on Dorothy's comment about many people
just talk too much. Anyway, it has a whole section on chores with a
different spin for different ages.

Good luck!

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:51:42 -0500, "Sue"
scribbled:

Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do in
the same situation?

I think kids really don't care all that much about their surroundings,
which is why it's so maddening for us moms ;-)
However, it's not unreasonable to expect kids their ages to pitch in
as you see fit.
What I did in the past when my ds was younger was to ban television,
video games, friends, and toys if he didn't cooperate with me.
If I had to pick up his junk, it disappeared for a while, and he had
to earn it back.

Nan

"Sue" wrote in message
...
We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
Despite
my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
their
things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
strewn
all over and/or torn up.

Okay, right here is your problem. TALKING about it isn't working. You have
to DO something about it.

My kids are not as old as yours, so I'm a little more lenient about making
them put away their messes (it's difficult right now because the youngest is
only 3yo and he can make such a big mess that it's really not fair to ask
the older kids to try to clean up when a significant proportion of the mess
isn't theirs). Even so, I am getting a bit more help from the older two than
I used to. (My 5yo actually came down this morning and put away her Barbies
because I told her last night at bedtime that she needed to do that for me.
No argument and she did a good job. It was sweet.)

Anyway, onto my main point--DOING something about their not cleaning up
after themselves. When the mess is something I clearly CAN'T be lenient
about and it is obvious to whom the mess belongs, I issue an ultimatum: the
kid cleans up the mess by X time or *I* clean it up and it goes in "jail"
until *I* decide it can come out again. The older kids have had their
favorite toys in jail often enough that they know I mean business and
comply.

So, I'd recommend having a logical consequence for failing to pick up after
themselves. I think the logical consequence of not putting your things back
where they belong is that, the next time you want them, they won't be where
you think they ought to be. And being "in jail" is as good a place as any.

dishes,

I don't now (and don't expect later) to have the kids do the dishes. We have
a dishwasher and they *do* help me clear the table and load it many nights,
but they do that purely on their own initiative. I may, when they get older,
assign one of them to help me clean up after meals on a rotation or
something, but it's not something I'd ever leave solely up to them because I
think of the kitchen as largely the responsibility of the grown-ups.

laundry (their own, not mine),

Again, this is something I can't see myself ever delegating to the kids. My
parents did the laundry (all of it together) when we were kids and I think
it's wasteful of water and electricity to wash small loads (which is what
you inevitably end up with if everyone does his/her own laundry and has to
wash once a week or so to have sufficient undergarments and socks). I will
ultimately expect them to put their clothes away after it is laundered,
however.

Now, I personally think it's reasonable to expect a 12yo to manage her own
laundry if that's the way you want to handle things in your household. But
I'm not sure about expecting that of either an 8 or 9yo. I'd be afraid
they'd ruin their things by washing at the wrong temperature, with colors
that run, or having them in too hot a dryer, and that would cost me in the
long run. So I'd keep the kids' laundry to myself until they were closer to
puberty, frankly.

picking up after themselves,

Expecting them to pick up after themselves is reasonable at their ages.
However, you may need to *help* them to do this by insisting that things be
put away before another activity can be started. It's a police job, to be
sure, but if you stick to it and apply the consequence when they fail to
meet expectations, they're likely to get the message and shape up.

Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
care about their surroundings

Well, yeah, your perspective is off if you expect them to *care*. I don't
think that average kids care all that much about how messy or tidy their
surroundings are. They may *start* to care when they can't find their stuff,
though!

or is it my responsibility to just keep the
house clean myself and not expect them to help?

I would expect them to help, but perhaps I would expect less help (at least
when it comes to some of the more routine stuf like dishes and laundry) and
I would certainly not expect that help to come spontaneously. I would expect
to have to remind (my kids would say "nag"), and I would expect to
occasionally have to pitch in to help get the job done (no consequences for
my pitching in if I'm asked to help and they are actually holding up their
end).
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:51:42 -0500, "Sue"
wrote:
nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do in
the same situation?

You know, when I was their age (and I'm pretty sure you also), I was
doing most of the housecleaning, and having to keep my bedroom
spotless. Not because I wanted to, mind you!! And today my bedroom is
a mess, the laundry is piled up, so are the dishes, and the hallway
and kitchen are muddy where the dog will not wipe her feet before she
comes in from outdoors ;o) (I actually do swiffer up the floor on
these days but I wait until the end of the day or I'd be doing it
every couple of hours)
So, knowing that I grew up cleaning the house, I know it is not too
much to expect from 3 children.
Having said that, my kids are the same as yours. Everything is a mess,
they do not ever care if something is broken.(and we never replace
anything, so it's not that they know they'll just get another one) It
is a huge fight and takes all day (literally) to clean up their
bedroom and the laundry room (that is where all the art stuff and
books are and it's mostly their mess) The only thing that has ever
worked for them is to have a schedule of when to clean their things
up. A specific part of the day, before lunch, or while you are cooking
dinner, or before bed. And I just have to stand over them. When I do
make up this schedule, we are excited and ready to follow it and all
promise to never stray from it. 3 days later, everything is trashed
again. It is tiring having to stand over them and the whole thing
causes more stress for me than the trashed bedroom. Last year, I
cleaned their bedroom out myself. Every toy, paper, knick-knack, book,
everything was gone through, and I got rid of probably 85% of the
stuff they had in there. We've always had a toybox, storage box or
shelf for everything they own and still it's all a mess.
So I have absolutely no advice for you, only commiseration. Send them
to the meanest babysitter you can and do it all yourself P
You know, though, my 8 and 9 year old have no problem cleaing the 2
year old's bedroom. I wonder why that is!
Marie

"Sue" wrote in message
...
We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
Despite
my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
their
things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
strewn
all over and/or torn up.

I never cared as a kid. Lecturing just made things worse. Then, I really
didn't care.

I have been painting most of the morning
and they have been either on the computer, playing the keyboard that we
have
or watching TV. Our house is absolutely turned upside down and I did
mention
this morning that I would like their help. Most of the mess is theirs.
Their
trash that they don't pick up, dishes that they have used, toys all over
the
floor. I decided to not even bring it up today and see just what they end
up
doing today. It's almost 2 o'clock now and as I have said, they have done
nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do
in
the same situation?

My kids are way younger than yours. Maybe when they are your children's
ages, I may have your problem. I can only tell you what I do with my
preschooler. We are not the neatest house on the block, but sometimes, I
want things put away. After every meal, DS must clear his plate and cup
from the table or else he's not allowed to leave the table. He does it
automatically now, so I never have to remind him. If there are toys
everywhere and I want them put away, he needs to help me put them away or
else we don't do the next thing he wants to be doing. In your case, they
would not be on the computer or watching tv or playing the keyboard until
their mess is cleaned up. Sometimes, I tell DS to hurry up and put away the
dvd's or toys or whatever so we can go to his sister's room, which he sees
as a treat. You can use the tv or computer or keyboard as the carrot.

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:18:18 -0800, "Circe" wrote:
Now, I personally think it's reasonable to expect a 12yo to manage her own
laundry if that's the way you want to handle things in your household. But
I'm not sure about expecting that of either an 8 or 9yo. I'd be afraid
they'd ruin their things by washing at the wrong temperature, with colors
that run, or having them in too hot a dryer, and that would cost me in the
long run. So I'd keep the kids' laundry to myself until they were closer to
puberty, frankly.

I wash everything together, in hot water/cold rinse, and always use
the same setting on the dryer, and have only had anything bad happen
once. I washed a red bandana and everything in the load became a bit
pinker. Maybe we just all have clothes that don't require much
attention. I was never taught about laundry, anyway.
Marie

"Sue" wrote in message
...

I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some help/ideas
on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.

We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
Despite
my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
their
things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
strewn
all over and/or torn up.

Love him or hate him, there was an interesting article from John Rosemond a
year or so ago kind of about this. (please let's not turn this into a
Rosemond debate) It focused more on the toys. Basically he said if they
aren't putting them away then put away almost all of them and leave a few
out. The remaining toys act as a "toy bank". Organize them on shelves in a
storage area and if they want to take out a toy from the "toy bank" they
have to put another one back before doing so. Your girls are old enough that
I should think it would work pretty well. They might not like it at first,
but you can decide how many toys get to come out for each girl at first.
Just an idea.

As for the trash and dishes...personally I would say no food ouside of the
kitchen (this is my rule in our house) and even then they are responsible
for clearing their dishes and garbage. Some type of consequence can be set
up if they don't. I would think that maybe a chore schedule charted out in a
visible place might be helpful also. That way they know what is expected of
them and if they don't do it there is a consequence. Just a few ideas. HTH.

JennP.

"JennP" wrote in message
Love him or hate him, there was an interesting article from John Rosemond
a
year or so ago kind of about this. (please let's not turn this into a
Rosemond debate) It focused more on the toys. Basically he said if they
aren't putting them away then put away almost all of them and leave a few
out. The remaining toys act as a "toy bank". Organize them on shelves in a
storage area and if they want to take out a toy from the "toy bank" they
have to put another one back before doing so. Your girls are old enough
that
I should think it would work pretty well. They might not like it at first,
but you can decide how many toys get to come out for each girl at first.
Just an idea.

I have tried that and basically they don't care if they have their stuff or
not. It's probably been about four months or so, but I had cleaned their
room and basically stripped everything out of there and kept things in my
office. I had them "check" things out as a library type thing but we got
away from that and now that we are moving, things are in a total disarray.
The toys I can cope with because I know it's a clean up first before you can
get another out thing and as soon as I can get things organized again, I
will feel much better about things.

As for the trash and dishes...personally I would say no food ouside of the
kitchen (this is my rule in our house) and even then they are responsible
for clearing their dishes and garbage.

Except in our house, the way it is set up, the dining room table has to go
in the living room. So they are eating at the table, except they haven't
been too good about cleaning up after themselves again. They have left all
of their stuff out and are not getting up and picking up after themselves.

Some type of consequence can be set up if they don't. I would think that
maybe a chore schedule charted out in a visible place might be helpful
also. That way they know what is expected of them and if they don't do it
there is a consequence. Just a few ideas. HTH.

I had a chore chart and we got away from it. I guess it's time for me to get
back to that again. I guess my problem is today that they are off school and
nothing has been done. I guess I kind of expected them to pitch in and help
and I see that that they really don't care enough to help me out with unless
I stand over them, like Marie said. Thanks.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

"Marie" wrote in message
You know, when I was their age (and I'm pretty sure you also), I was
doing most of the housecleaning, and having to keep my bedroom
spotless. Not because I wanted to, mind you!!

Yep, see I guess that's my problem. When I was growing up, my mom had a huge
garden that she tended to. I hated being outside, so it was our deal that I
kept the inside clean and she did the outside. I don't mind cleaning, but I
guess I resent having to pick up my kids messes and junk when I know they
are capable of it, they just don't care and that's what bothers me. I know
that they are capable of doing the things I ask. It's just a matter of
getting it done.

So I have absolutely no advice for you, only commiseration. Send them
to the meanest babysitter you can and do it all yourself P

LOL. Joel said yesterday that it was too bad we couldn't swap kids from a
more unfortunate family so that they could see just how good they have it.
Thanks for the commiseration. It helps.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)