Rewarding good or "not bad"

On Dec 6, 9:24 am, Banty wrote:

snip

This is slow-drip torture for a bright kid, and the road to cynicism.
She's
already gotten cynical. Are there other educational opportunities around
for
her?

No! Unless someone wishes to send us about £10K a year for school fees! (or
we win the lottery) and someone can persuade dh that the road to hell isn't
lines with private schools.
Debbie
Ps before anyone suggests, homeschooling would not be a good option for her

Hopefully things may change in the junior high school next year.

?? At what age/grade *do* they start giving letter grades in UK
schools?

On Dec 6, 6:35�am, "Welches"
wrote:
I'm coming from the view of #1, who sits still, listens and obeys (at school
anyway!!) and is at the top end of her form. Her teacher commented that she
"coasts" the academic side, and still is at the top. Certainly she produces
much better work at home than she does at school.

At various times she has commented that you get more rewards at school by
being "not bad" than being always good. It's been comment before but I'm
beginning to sense a frustration, as often these other children are getting
rewards frequently that she would like to have occasionally.

Having observed at various times the 3-4 children in her form that are least
able to concentrate seem to get more than half the visible rewards going at
any time, this does seem to be disproportionate, but I can sympathise with
the teachers who have to keep them going. The school is very
non-competative, and don't seem to reward achievement either academically,
sporting, or other although they're good at recognising effort. I like the
awarding for effort, but sometimes #1 is confused by this and thinks she
must have done something badly because others got commended and she didn't
or thinks she must be really good at something that she isn't, but gets
rewarded because she tries.

Last year I overheard her discussing with friends whether it was worth being
"naughty" one day to get "star of the day". Luckily they decided it wasn't
worth being told off back then, but I'm not sure she's going to keep that
decision up if this continues. (I susequently noticed that the "star of the
day" was basically awarded to the same 3 children every week, and maybe
another if they remembered to do it on another day)
#1 has commented that the rewards are not done on an equal scale, which she
seems to find a bit confusing (she commented one time that her teacher had
said that 2 stories in the class were "superb" and one subsequently got a
head teacher's certificate for it and the other didn't. She thought the head
teacher must have forgotten the other child) and I have discussed with her
about finding different things hard and trying hard being important.

I think this is an issue with at least one other girl in her class too, from
speaking to her parent.

I'm wondering how other schools deal with this problem, as I can't think of
a realisitc way round this where all are going to be motivated and feel
rewarded. The ones who really seem to miss out from my observation are those
who are quiet, obedient, and middle of the class in achievements, they seem
to get very, very few rewards at all.

Debbie

I think I would certainly point out the issues the teacher is probably
inadvertently creating with her reward system to the teacher, and at
the same time, I would tell my daughter what a wonderful student she
is and that the system is really created for children who *should*
know better to try to do better, that we all know she is already doing
her best, which IS wonderful, and that she should be quite proud that
she doesn't need a reward system to motivate her to be the best person/
student she can be. I hope that teacher is at least willing to keep
the "not bad" rewards at a different level than those that should be
created for star students.

Welches wrote:
"Penny Gaines" wrote in message
...
[snip]
I'm not quite sure what you can do as a parent, except possibly bring it
to the teacher's notice. I suppose you could bring it up with the
governors (for non-UK posters, these could be thought of as the school
board), but it would need to be changed from within the school.

Anyway, you have my sympathies, but beyond changing school, I'm not
quite sure what you could do about it.

She leaves at the end of the year, for junior school, so I don't think I'd
bring it up unless it was raised. As for the governors-I might speak to dh
about it, but I don't think it is in their present remit. :-)
They are (as I've gradually realised) very committed to non-competitiveness.
They even have a non-competitive sports day which, as a child whose aim was
not to come last, I think is unfair on those who are good. No house points,
no competitive things in any way. I think the hm is afraid of being called
on favouritism so they make sure no one shines too brightly. (and I'm not
specifically thinking of my child as I say that!)
It is generally a very good school, and we're lucky to get in-they were
oversubscribed by at least 50% last year, and this is really a minor niggle.
But I feel it must be pretty obvious for her and others to have noticed at
their age.

Well, my DD was only 3yo when she spotted the playgroup leaders were
giving stickers to some children but other well-behaved children never
got any.

I would still be inclined to bring it up with the teacher at the next
parents evening. It might merely mean that your DD is added to the
short-list of "children who get stickers".

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

Welches wrote:

I'm wondering how other schools deal with this problem, as I can't think of
a realisitc way round this where all are going to be motivated and feel
rewarded. The ones who really seem to miss out from my observation are those
who are quiet, obedient, and middle of the class in achievements, they seem
to get very, very few rewards at all.

Have you brought up the issue with teachers and administrators?
If not, I would suggest you do so. The problem is that the compliant
students are slipping through the cracks. The teachers may be so busy
trying to deal with the more noticeable problems that they're not
very aware of how it's affecting those other than the "target" students.
They might be willing to tweak their systems a bit if you brought
this to their attention.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Beliavsky wrote:
On Dec 6, 9:24 am, Banty wrote:

snip

This is slow-drip torture for a bright kid, and the road to cynicism.
She's
already gotten cynical. Are there other educational opportunities around
for
her?
No! Unless someone wishes to send us about £10K a year for school fees! (or
we win the lottery) and someone can persuade dh that the road to hell isn't
lines with private schools.
Debbie
Ps before anyone suggests, homeschooling would not be a good option for her
Hopefully things may change in the junior high school next year.

?? At what age/grade *do* they start giving letter grades in UK
schools?

Well, never. It is probably more like the Indian system you mentioned.

We have "SATS" exams at 6/7yo, 10/11yo and 13/14yo: the results are
given as a numerical level on the same scale, although these are
sub-divided into a, b or c.

So most children would be expected to be working at level 2 when they
are 7yo, and will be tested in English and maths.

When they are 10/11yo, in May they are tested in English, maths and
science and the average child is expected to be at level 4, although
some children will be working at level 5, and others at level 3.

They are tested in English, maths and science again when they are
13/14yo. At this age, children will be expected to be working at
level 5 or 6.

Then they go onto working towards exams. The exams taken at 15/16yo are
called GCSE's and have a combination of exam and set pieces of work.
The results are given as letters, and most employers consider results of
A-C as a pass, and D or below as a fail.

The next main set of exams are A levels, taken at 17/18yo. If you are
planning to go to University, you would take 3 or possibly 4: the
passing grades are A-E.

Basically, the results of SATS are fairly irrelevant once you get to
GCSE level. What employers and colleges are interested in are the GCSE
and A level results. It doesn't really matter to them whether you got a
level 8 in maths when you were 14 if you get a D at GCSE.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

"Welches" wrote in message
...

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Welches says...

I'm coming from the view of #1, who sits still, listens and obeys (at
school
anyway!!) and is at the top end of her form. Her teacher commented that
she
"coasts" the academic side, and still is at the top. Certainly she
produces
much better work at home than she does at school.

At various times she has commented that you get more rewards at school by
being "not bad" than being always good. It's been comment before but I'm
beginning to sense a frustration, as often these other children are
getting
rewards frequently that she would like to have occasionally.

Having observed at various times the 3-4 children in her form that are
least
able to concentrate seem to get more than half the visible rewards going
at
any time, this does seem to be disproportionate, but I can sympathise
with
the teachers who have to keep them going. The school is very
non-competative, and don't seem to reward achievement either
academically,
sporting, or other although they're good at recognising effort. I like
the
awarding for effort, but sometimes #1 is confused by this and thinks she
must have done something badly because others got commended and she
didn't
or thinks she must be really good at something that she isn't, but gets
rewarded because she tries.

Last year I overheard her discussing with friends whether it was worth
being
"naughty" one day to get "star of the day". Luckily they decided it
wasn't
worth being told off back then, but I'm not sure she's going to keep that
decision up if this continues. (I susequently noticed that the "star of
the
day" was basically awarded to the same 3 children every week, and maybe
another if they remembered to do it on another day)
#1 has commented that the rewards are not done on an equal scale, which
she
seems to find a bit confusing (she commented one time that her teacher
had
said that 2 stories in the class were "superb" and one subsequently got a
head teacher's certificate for it and the other didn't. She thought the
head
teacher must have forgotten the other child) and I have discussed with
her
about finding different things hard and trying hard being important.

I think this is an issue with at least one other girl in her class too,
from
speaking to her parent.

I'm wondering how other schools deal with this problem, as I can't think
of
a realisitc way round this where all are going to be motivated and feel
rewarded. The ones who really seem to miss out from my observation are
those
who are quiet, obedient, and middle of the class in achievements, they
seem
to get very, very few rewards at all.


This is slow-drip torture for a bright kid, and the road to cynicism.
She's
already gotten cynical. Are there other educational opportunities around
for
her?

No! Unless someone wishes to send us about £10K a year for school fees!
(or we win the lottery) and someone can persuade dh that the road to hell
isn't lines with private schools.



waving I wish I could help. I am a product of private schools. And I am
"Skipping Toward Gamorrah, as it were.

Debbie
Ps before anyone suggests, homeschooling would not be a good option for
her

Beliavsky wrote:
On Dec 6, 7:03 am, Penny Gaines wrote:
[snip]
The difficulty with not rewarding academic results is that doing well
academically is not necessarily obvious to the child. Sporting
achievements are obvious, because you can see the other kids doing
stuff, but you don't necessarily see that another child is getting
crosses against most (or some!) of their maths answers .

My wife tells me that in Indian schools, class ranks based on exams
are kept from the earliest grades, and such ranks appear on the report
cards sent to parents. Academic rank can be made just as clear as
athletic rank if the school wants that. As a parent I think I would,
although I would also want to know how my kids do on standardized
achievment tests given to students throughout the state (and ideally
throughout the country).
[snip]

There is a difference between the school informing the parents about
relative progress, and the children seeing academic differences themselves.

Certainly, parents are informed about how their child is doing, and both
national scores and local scores. The information the parent is getting
is not an issue in the UK.

But the child doesn't see that. If their maths exercise book is full of
ticks, it is easy for them to assume that other children are also
getting almost every sum right, and if their work does not have much in
the way of spelling correction, it is also easy for them to assume
no-one else has many corrections either.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:35:20 GMT, Welches wrote:

Having observed at various times the 3-4 children in her form that are least
able to concentrate seem to get more than half the visible rewards going at
any time, this does seem to be disproportionate, but I can sympathise with
the teachers who have to keep them going. The school is very
non-competative, and don't seem to reward achievement either academically,
sporting, or other although they're good at recognising effort. I like the
awarding for effort, but sometimes #1 is confused by this and thinks she
must have done something badly because others got commended and she didn't
or thinks she must be really good at something that she isn't, but gets
rewarded because she tries.

I think they should reward both effort and excellence.

"Penny Gaines" wrote in message
...
Beliavsky wrote:
On Dec 6, 7:03 am, Penny Gaines wrote:
[snip]
The difficulty with not rewarding academic results is that doing well
academically is not necessarily obvious to the child. Sporting
achievements are obvious, because you can see the other kids doing
stuff, but you don't necessarily see that another child is getting
crosses against most (or some!) of their maths answers .

My wife tells me that in Indian schools, class ranks based on exams
are kept from the earliest grades, and such ranks appear on the report
cards sent to parents. Academic rank can be made just as clear as
athletic rank if the school wants that. As a parent I think I would,
although I would also want to know how my kids do on standardized
achievment tests given to students throughout the state (and ideally
throughout the country).
[snip]

There is a difference between the school informing the parents about
relative progress, and the children seeing academic differences
themselves.

Certainly, parents are informed about how their child is doing, and both
national scores and local scores. The information the parent is getting
is not an issue in the UK.

But the child doesn't see that. If their maths exercise book is full of
ticks, it is easy for them to assume that other children are also getting
almost every sum right, and if their work does not have much in
the way of spelling correction, it is also easy for them to assume no-one
else has many corrections either.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three


I wonder what difference it makes what the other kids are doing.
(PollyAnna!!) But really, the notion of goals and acheivement *should* be
personal. Right now I am working on X. I want to achieve Y. How is my
progress...

On Dec 6, 5:10 pm, "Stephanie" wrote:

snip

I wonder what difference it makes what the other kids are doing.
(PollyAnna!!) But really, the notion of goals and acheivement *should* be
personal. Right now I am working on X. I want to achieve Y. How is my
progress...

I think there is a sex difference such that males are more motivated
by competition than females are, on average. Many educators, such as
those in the OP's school, frown on competition nowadays, and this may
be partly explain why boys have fallen behind girls in academic
achievement. Christina Hoff Sommers discussed this in a book "The War
Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men".

I've seen otherwise intelligent men on trading floors engage in eating/
drinking contests. I doubt a group of women would do that.

I know I was a fairly competitive student by high school -- I didn't
just want A's but to be the top student in every individual class. I
did not succeed in the latter, but the goal may have motivated me to
work harder than I otherwise would have.