We don need no steenkin' CPS.

0:- wrote:
Greegor wrote:
1500 kids per year killed by parents?
Where are these stats and who reported them?
Worldwide or US?

****, Greegor, Doug and I have discussed this many times. It runs in the
upper 1,400's usually. And just recently I POSTED THIS and the source.

I'm sick and tired of you NOT reading the threads, then popping up like
a groundhog looking for the sun and babbling your demands that HAVE
ALREADY BEEN MET IF YOU'D LOOK.

Do you, for instance, how damn easy it is to simply GOGGLE that
information? A couple of words in the search field, hit enter, and
bingo...there's all you could possibly want to know.

Or in your case, NOT WANT TO KNOW BECAUSE IT SHOWS AGAIN YOU ARE SICK
LIAR AMONG A GROUP OF SICK LIARS.

I'm sorry if you are disabled by anything that would effect your memory,
of course, if that is the case. Please learn to keep bookmarks on
relevant items that you commonly question.

Oh hell, WHY NOT?

THIS IS THE LAST TIME YOU LITTLE **** FACED HARASSING LYING ****ANT
FREAK OF NATURE.

Here you GO ****ant!

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/p...four.htm#child

And here is MY POST in THIS ****ING THREAD, YOU ****ANT, in both ascps
and aps, which you had to have read. Or were you out on bottle and can
pickup patrol for the past two days? You sure as hell read OTHER things
and replied.

Here's what I said TWO DAYS AGO:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...c7602a48f69724

"...
Over a thousand a year. My bet is not ONE of those murderous parents
thinks CPS is a useful agency.

Nearly 1,500 a year kill their children. Pretty much year in and year
out. Think how that mounts up in totals.

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/p...four.htm#child

Number of Child Fatalities

During 2004, an estimated 1,490 children died (compared to 1,460
children for 2003) from abuse or neglect ...

Age and Sex of Fatalities

Based on data from 32 States, more than fourfifths (81.0%) of children
who were killed were younger than 4 years of age, 11.5 percent were 4-7
years of age, 4.1 percent were 8-11 years of age, and 3.4 percent were
12-17 years of age (figure 4-1).

The youngest children experienced the highest rates of fatalities.
Infant boys (younger than 1 year) had a fatality rate of 18 deaths per
100,000 boys of the same age.3 Infant girls (younger than 1 year) had a
fatality rate of 17 deaths per 100,000 girls of the same age. In
general, fatality rates for both boys and girls decreased with the age
of the children. ...

Real children. Living, breathing, precious children. Just like our own.
Only now dead. Forever. By the hand of their parents.

Does our lil 'o' have problems? Oh.....I'd say so.

About a thousand children a year that die at the hands of their parents
do so because of "discipline" that escalated to murder. In other words,
two thirds of the total each year were "disciplined to death."

And these creeps wonder why anyone would be interested in legislation to
end spanking.

0:-
"

See that thing in the middle of this quoted commentary? It's the answer
to your question about WHO reported this number.


http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/p...four.htm#child

Try it you stupid lying piece of ****.

Then there's the Death By Spanking [subject field] thread

http://tinyurl.com/or98m

I began with this:

"The Department of Health and Human Services and the New England Journal
of Medicine estimate that 1,000 to 2,000 children die every year in the
U.S. from corporal punishment that has escalated to a lethal level. They
estimate that 142,000 are seriously injured annually. 1

The DHHS is the source for the other information on the 1500 as well.

That's US Department of Health and Human Services.

This post was on the 16th or 17th of last month, Greegor...less than a
month ago. It's only the 12 now, so three weeks at the outside.

Notice that it would make TWO THIRDS of the deaths by parents cause not
by neglect, but by SPANKING. That IS what "escalated" above MEANS.

From "corporal punishment" obviously legal or the article wouldn't be
about the issue to deadly beating or other injury that was lethal to A
THOUSAND CHILDREN A YEAR.

You don't want CPS, and you don't want spanking to be controlled let
alone ended. YOU want to teach people how to spank.

When you know damn well they lack, in 1000 BRAND NEW cases each year,
the ability to control themselves.

In fact, you lowlife immoral scum sucker, this was your response to me
in the thread on deaths by escalation of corporal punishment:

"When they plaster Big Brother's face all over
the place, Kane wants it to be HIS face! "

Thought you were cute, didn't you? Children's DEATHS AT THE HANDS OF
THEIR PARENTS USING A TIME HONORED TRADITIONAL PRACTICE OF DISCIPLINE
and you want to make light of it and accuse me of wanting to find a way
to stop it as though that amounted to Big Brother oppression.

Just how ****ing sick ARE you?

So what IS wrong with your memory?

I can cut you a tiny bit of slack on three week old posts, but TWO DAYS.

1490 children a year, dead at their parent's hands. 1000 OF THEM FROM
SPANKING GONE OUT OF CONTROL.

Are you insane?

Are you stupid?

Are you a vicious liar?

Chose any or all from the list above.

Kane

Greg, you seem interested in moving on and ignoring this now, preferring
to makes stupid claims about what a plumbing supply line is vs a piece
of PVC (the one mentioned, by the way, is WOVEN PVC).

Why are you not debating me on the issues in this post?

Can I take your absence and avoidance of admission I am factually and
logically correct then?

Will you then, since I am correct, change your ways? Or do you wish to
continue following an incorrect way?

Just thought I'd ask.

0:-



--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

Greegor wrote:
1490 from abuse or neglect eh?
That's quite different from 1490 killed BY parents.

Well what do you plan to do about the 1000 that WERE in fact killed by
their parents by escalating from corporal punishment to murder?

Hi, Kane,

The USDHHS source you cite says nothing about 1,000 of the children being
killed by their parents or that those deaths occurred as the result of
"escalating corporal punishment to murder."

The NCANDS simply reported that 1,490 children died as the result of child
abuse or neglect. It decidedly does NOT say by whom, or the circumstances
that led to the fatal abuse/neglect. Many of the 1,490 deaths were caused
by foster caregivers and other people other than parents.

This was reported by the same government agency. USDHHS.

No. This was claimed by another source, who did not cite anything released
by USDHHS. Call NCANDS. You will find they will deny outright the claim
that 1,000 of the fatalties were the result of escaluation of discipline.

I posted this, and you, in your sly way are avoiding it.

That simply means, you silly twit, that 490 were killed by neglect.

It means no such thing. USDHHS does not break out the fatalities by
cause -- abuse or neglect. The NCANDS data simply shows that 1,490 children
died as the result of abuse and neglect, collectively. Not all physical
abuse that ended in fatalities started with corporal punishment.

And I pointed out that about 2/3rd were by ABUSE, unless of course you
don't call CP escalation to murder, abuse.

Where does the source you cite (NCANDS) support that contention? Nowhere.

"
"The Department of Health and Human Services and the New England Journal
of Medicine estimate that 1,000 to 2,000 children die every year in the
U.S. from corporal punishment that has escalated to a lethal level. They
estimate that 142,000 are seriously injured annually. 1 "

Where is your citation for this source? USDHHS reported no such thing.

Kiddo that not even "1000" the lowest number I could ethically USE by the
limits of the comment I was making, but up to 2000 every year by the
findings of the USDHHS.

The uncited source attributes the numbers to TWO publications, in two
different countries. You do cite USDHHS data, which does NOT support this
claim.

1,000 CHILDREN OR MORE DEAD EVERY YEAR AT THE HANDS OF THEY PARENT
PRACTICING CP THAT ESCALATED?

Not so. The USDHHS data you cite does not in the slightest support this
claim.

Over a thousand a year. My bet is not ONE of those murderous parents
thinks CPS is a useful agency.

Nearly 1,500 a year kill their children. Pretty much year in and year out.
Think how that mounts up in totals.

Hi, Kane,

No, your source reports that 1,490 children died as the result of abuse and
neglect in 2004. Many of those children were killed by foster carers and
caregivers other than parents.

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/p...four.htm#child

Number of Child Fatalities

During 2004, an estimated 1,490 children died (compared to 1,460 children
for 2003) from abuse or neglect ...

See?

Age and Sex of Fatalities

Based on data from 32 States, more than fourfifths (81.0%) of children who
were killed were younger than 4 years of age, 11.5 percent were 4-7 years
of age, 4.1 percent were 8-11 years of age, and 3.4 percent were 12-17
years of age (figure 4-1).

The youngest children experienced the highest rates of fatalities. Infant
boys (younger than 1 year) had a fatality rate of 18 deaths per 100,000
boys of the same age.3 Infant girls (younger than 1 year) had a fatality
rate of 17 deaths per 100,000 girls of the same age. In general, fatality
rates for both boys and girls decreased with the age of the children. ...

Real children. Living, breathing, precious children. Just like our own.
Only now dead. Forever. By the hand of their parents.

No. These are USDHHS figures about the total number of fatalities as the
result of abuse and neglect committed by all caregivers. Many died at the
hands of foster caregivers and carers other than parents.

About a thousand children a year that die at the hands of their parents do
so because of "discipline" that escalated to murder. In other words, two
thirds of the total each year were "disciplined to death."

Not at all so. This contention is not in any fashion supported by your
source.

And these creeps wonder why anyone would be interested in legislation to
end spanking.

They may instead be interested in legislation that would end the child
fatalities due to abuse and neglect.

Doug,
Sorry about my posting I am in a rush.
I just wonder, myself, how many of the children in the stats would have
been killed by parents, rather than foster care, had they not been removed
from their parents.
It does not justify what the fosters and adopters do with these kids, but
it does make me wonder what the outcome would be if the children were left
with their families.

Hi, Betty!

You ask an excellent question -- one that, unfortunately, is very difficult
for social scientists to answer.

Among the obsticles are a tremendous number of variables that are difficult,
and in some cases, impossible to measure or control for. There are, for
instance, ethical boundaries to utilizing experimental designs to make
comparative measures of interventions that address human behavior. And
criteria defining sub-categories of the CPS client population are
non-specific and confusing.

I think a lot of us would approach the question with the hypothesis that
children removed from families that have neither maltreated their children
or put them at risk of maltreatment would be less likely to be killed in
their homes than they would in state custody under the care of strangers.
And we know that the rate of child fatalities due to abuse and neglect is
much lower in the general population than it is in foster care. Research
has shown that there is a direct correlation between abuse/neglect of
children and the blood-connection of their caregivers. But what are the
characteristics of children removed from their homes and placed into foster
care?

206,000 child subjects of child abuse and neglect investigations were taken
into state custody during 2003. 69,000 of those children were removed from
families CPS investigators unsubstantiated for child maltreatment or risk of
maltreatment. Of the 517,000 child victims from families CPS substantiated
for abuse/neglect or risk of same, 380,000 were left in their homes before,
during and after the investigation. http://tinyurl.com/94lu3 Were those
380,000 children more likely to be killed in their home than the 137,000
victims CPS placed into foster care? Again, a good question, but no answer
is available because these subpopulations were not tracked.

Well, we know that a substantial percentage of them were determined by CPS
to be neither maltreated or at risk of maltreatment. We would expect that
these children would be more at risk of serious abuse in foster care than in
their own homes. Yet, no one has tracked this subpopulation of
"nonvictims" -- they are mixed in with children CPS determined were victims
of maltreatment prior to them being removed from their homes.

If researchers were able to track seperately those children who were removed
from homes CPS substantiated for abuse/neglect or risk of abuse and neglect,
we would suspect that the fatality rate would be higher in those homes than
in state custody. But we have no way of measuring that factor because the
children were, in fact, removed. And ethical standards prohibit setting up
an experimental model that calls for intentionally leaving some children in
dangerous homes simply to compare the results to those who have been
removed.

There is evidence to suggest that CPS interventions themselves are
correlated to greater incidence of re-abuse or a repeat of neglect. These
interventions include removal, but also include in-home interventions.
We know that in 2003 nonparental perpetrators (e.g., other relative, foster
parent, residential facility staff, other, legal guardian, etc.) were
responsible for 264 fatalites due to abuse and neglect, or 17.7 percent of
fatalities. http://tinyurl.com/rtce8 We know that the child population
cared for by foster caregivers, guardians and other relatives is much, much
smaller than the number of children cared for by their parent(s). But we
don't know precisely what that number is (Foster care population represents
less than .7 of 1% of the child population.) If the overall fatality rate
of 2 per 100,000 children were applied to that population, we would expect 8
children to be killed by foster caregivers -- although the number of
children killed by foster caregivers is many that number, making the
comparative rate of fatalities many times higher in foster care.
http://tinyurl.com/rtce8 What is the size of the child population cared for
by all non-parental caregivers? We don't know.

One place we can look for the answer to your question is the number of
children who received in-home services at some time during the five years
prior to being killed through neglect or abuse by their caregivers (parental
or non-parental). In 2003, 160 children of families who received in-home
services suffered fatal child neglect/abuse maltreatment -- or about 10.7
percent of the total number of fatalities due to abuse and neglect.
http://tinyurl.com/rtce8 About 5 million children received
post-investigation services during those years (the majority of which were
children from families CPS unsubstantiated for child maltreatment or risk of
same), http://tinyurl.com/94lu3 so the fatality rate due to abuse and
neglect of this population would be 3.2 per 100,000 children -- a higher
rate than the rate of 2.0 in the general population. But, again, this
sub-population includes in the majority non-victim children who received
services. Although far from being a definative answer to your question,
that 3.2 per 100,000 rate is much lower than the rate of fatalities due to
abuse and neglect in foster care.

Again, however, no valid comparison can be made -- too many variables and
categories of sub-populations that are not clearly defined. We don't even
know what specifically killed these children. Around 28.4% (NOT 60) died as
the result of physical abuse, not all of which, obviously, began with
spanking g. Another 35.6% died from neglect (which is sometimes claimed
to be the biggest killer) -- relatively clear. But another 28.9% died as
the result of both neglect and abuse.

42 children (2.8%) among child fatalities due to abuse and neglect were once
in foster care and returned to their families. Could these number be
compared to fatalities among those who remained in foster care during that
period? Hmmm. Maybe a chance, there. I will have to look around for data.

Are you confusing the rat bite story with the
"beaten by PVC ""pipe"" " story?

Doug,
Sorry about my posting I am in a rush.
I just wonder, myself, how many of the children in the stats would have been
killed by parents, rather than foster care, had they not been removed from
their parents.
It does not justify what the fosters and adopters do with these kids, but it
does make me wonder what the outcome would be if the children were left with
their families.


"Doug" wrote in message
...
Over a thousand a year. My bet is not ONE of those murderous parents
thinks CPS is a useful agency.

Nearly 1,500 a year kill their children. Pretty much year in and year
out. Think how that mounts up in totals.

Hi, Kane,

No, your source reports that 1,490 children died as the result of abuse
and neglect in 2004. Many of those children were killed by foster carers
and caregivers other than parents.

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/p...four.htm#child

Number of Child Fatalities

During 2004, an estimated 1,490 children died (compared to 1,460 children
for 2003) from abuse or neglect ...

See?

Age and Sex of Fatalities

Based on data from 32 States, more than fourfifths (81.0%) of children
who were killed were younger than 4 years of age, 11.5 percent were 4-7
years of age, 4.1 percent were 8-11 years of age, and 3.4 percent were
12-17 years of age (figure 4-1).

The youngest children experienced the highest rates of fatalities. Infant
boys (younger than 1 year) had a fatality rate of 18 deaths per 100,000
boys of the same age.3 Infant girls (younger than 1 year) had a fatality
rate of 17 deaths per 100,000 girls of the same age. In general, fatality
rates for both boys and girls decreased with the age of the children. ...

Real children. Living, breathing, precious children. Just like our own.
Only now dead. Forever. By the hand of their parents.

No. These are USDHHS figures about the total number of fatalities as the
result of abuse and neglect committed by all caregivers. Many died at the
hands of foster caregivers and carers other than parents.

About a thousand children a year that die at the hands of their parents
do so because of "discipline" that escalated to murder. In other words,
two thirds of the total each year were "disciplined to death."

Not at all so. This contention is not in any fashion supported by your
source.

And these creeps wonder why anyone would be interested in legislation to
end spanking.

They may instead be interested in legislation that would end the child
fatalities due to abuse and neglect.

Considering that Foster Care is like 10 times
more dangerous than parental homes, and
that masses of kids are removed where the
agencies themselves admit they had NOTHING,
it doesn't take much to figure out that
CPS agencies are NOT making things better.

AND all of this assumes the agencies are
not telling LIES favorable to their position.
That's a rediculous assumption since they
have gotten caught telling lies in their stats.

Doug wrote:
Greegor wrote:
1490 from abuse or neglect eh?
That's quite different from 1490 killed BY parents.
Well what do you plan to do about the 1000 that WERE in fact killed by
their parents by escalating from corporal punishment to murder?

Hi, Kane,

The USDHHS source you cite says nothing about 1,000 of the children being
killed by their parents or that those deaths occurred as the result of
"escalating corporal punishment to murder."

The NCANDS simply reported that 1,490 children died as the result of child
abuse or neglect. It decidedly does NOT say by whom, or the circumstances
that led to the fatal abuse/neglect. Many of the 1,490 deaths were caused
by foster caregivers and other people other than parents.


Why you lying creep:

"Three-quarters (78.9%) of child fatalities were caused by one or more
parents (figure 4-2).5 Almost one-third (31.3%) of fatalities were
perpetrated by the mother acting alone.6 Nonparental perpetrators (e.g.,
other relative, foster parent, residential facility staff, “other,” and
legal guardian) were responsible for 10.6 percent of fatalities.When
these nonparental perpetrators were further examined, it was found that
3.3 percent of fatalities were caused by male partners of a parent."

From the same page of the same source you cite.

That's well over 3/4s of fatalities being caused by "one or more parents."

You can't open your yap without lying, can you Doug?

" Maltreatment Types of Fatalities

The three main categories of maltreatment related to fatalities were
neglect (35.5%), combinations of maltreatments (30.2%), and physical
abuse (28.3%), (figure 4-3).7 Medical neglect accounted for 1.4 percent
of fatalities."

That puts the cause as physical abuse 30.2% and 28.3 percent, or 58.5%
just for this one year.

Over half from physical abuse or a combination of both physical and
neglect or another type...even sexual abuse has some deaths attributed
to it.

This was reported by the same government agency. USDHHS.

No. This was claimed by another source, who did not cite anything released
by USDHHS. Call NCANDS.

Why? They'll point me to the figures above, Doug.

You will find they will deny outright the claim
that 1,000 of the fatalties were the result of escaluation of discipline.

Ever here of anyone that beat their child to death claim they did to
beat them to death? What do they always say, Doug? THEIR OWN CLAIM.

"They fell," at first, escalating quickly to 'discipline." "I would
never kill my child."

Get real. No one is stupid enough to buy your crap but you and the
occasional dummy here you use to buck up your delusions.

I posted this, and you, in your sly way are avoiding it.

That simply means, you silly twit, that 490 were killed by neglect.

It means no such thing.

The hell it doesn't.

USDHHS does not break out the fatalities by
cause -- abuse or neglect.

The hell they didn't and right on the page YOU CITED.

Don't tell me your are going to try and run another NCIC ignorance
number on us when the information you claim doesn't exist YOU cited.

The NCANDS data simply shows that 1,490 children
died as the result of abuse and neglect, collectively. Not all physical
abuse that ended in fatalities started with corporal punishment.

Didn't EVEN BOTHER TO LOOK, did you Doug? Figured that, "hell, this
stupid emotionally unbalanced **** ants will buy anything I say after
years of my clever spin," didn't you, Doug?

Do you think the NEJM is likely to lie, Doug?

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/...urcetype=HWCIT
http://tinyurl.com/nkxtz

"Homicide is the leading cause of infant deaths due to injury,
accounting for almost one third of such deaths in 1996.1 Among children
and adolescents, homicides are most likely to occur in the first year of
life, with similar or higher rates only during later adolescence.1,2,3,4
More than 80 percent of documented homicides in very young children can
be viewed as fatal child abuse, and there is strong evidence that both
homicides and fatal cases of child abuse are undercounted.5,6,7 In
addition, almost one fourth of infants discharged from acute care
facilities with disabilities due to injury are considered to have been
intentionally injured, almost always as a result of child abuse; in an
additional 8 percent of cases, intentionality is undetermined.8 Risk
factors that can be identified in the prenatal period must be
established both to identify infants at high risk for homicide and to
develop timely and effective interventions."

I you read the entire text, it's not long, slowly you will see easily,
if you don't lie to yourself, that their estimates are based on very
likely undercounts and the real number likely much higher.

And the source information?

"Source Information

From the Division of Epidemiology, Statistics, and Prevention Research,
National Institute of Child Health and Human Development.

Address reprint requests to Dr. Overpeck at the National Institute of
Child Health and Human Development, Bldg. 6100, Rm. 7B03, 9000 Rockville
Pike MSC 7510, Bethesda, MD 20892-7510. "

I suggest you look at the "References" as well for the long list of
research report studies that show this to be a very serious large scale
problem.

No one is pulling data out of their hat, Doug, except you. There has
been a great deal of study on this issue both under CDC and pediatric
funded research.

They KNOW what they are talking about...and YOU DO NOT. You are a cherry
picker and a bad one at that..not even seeing confounding information on
the page were you cite.

http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/con...cetyp e=HWCIT

The figures below are drawn JUST from medical records, Doug...not
coronors, or police. JUST medical sources. They would NOT be seeing
those that died BEFORE hospital admissions.

Look at the number for ONE YEAR, of fatal and nonfatal injuries:

"Design Comparative analysis of patients injured by child abuse (n =
1997) with patients injured unintentionally (n = 16,831), newborn to 4
years of age."

Look at the AGE LIMIT DEMOGRAPIC. Obviously a subset of what would have
to a much larger total for a ten year study.

199 children under the age of five KILLED BY ABUSE EACH year, and 1,683
injured severely enough to be seen by a physician.

You minimize child abuse AGAIN, Doug AGAIN!


And I pointed out that about 2/3rd were by ABUSE, unless of course you
don't call CP escalation to murder, abuse.

Where does the source you cite (NCANDS) support that contention? Nowhere.

Then how was I able to QUOTE YOUR SOURCE FOR SUCH FIGURES?

"
"The Department of Health and Human Services and the New England Journal
of Medicine estimate that 1,000 to 2,000 children die every year in the
U.S. from corporal punishment that has escalated to a lethal level. They
estimate that 142,000 are seriously injured annually. 1 "

Where is your citation for this source? USDHHS reported no such thing.

Kiddo that not even "1000" the lowest number I could ethically USE by the
limits of the comment I was making, but up to 2000 every year by the
findings of the USDHHS.

The uncited

How do you uncite by giving the names of the sources Doug? Do you mean
not directly quoted with a link to the exact study? Yes, the latter is
true, but the truth is year after year for decades this has been the
kind of findings, and as the reporting improves it goes up and up.

source attributes the numbers to TWO publications, in two
different countries. You do cite USDHHS data, which does NOT support this
claim.

R R R R R

NEW England Journal of Medicine does NOT come out of *England,* Doug.
chuckle.

Obviously as I an others there have shown repeatedly, you are a sloppy
researcher.

"The New England Journal of Medicine is owned, published, and
copyrighted © 2006 Massachusetts Medical Society.

The New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) is a weekly general medical
journal that publishes new medical research findings, review articles,
and editorial opinion on a wide variety of topics of importance to
biomedical science and clinical practice. Material is published with an
emphasis on internal medicine and specialty areas including
allergy/immunology, cardiology, endocrinology, gastroenterology,
hematology, kidney disease, oncology, pulmonary disease, rheumatology,
HIV, and infectious diseases."

1,000 CHILDREN OR MORE DEAD EVERY YEAR AT THE HANDS OF THEY PARENT
PRACTICING CP THAT ESCALATED?

Not so. The USDHHS data you cite does not in the slightest support this
claim.

Well, you are wrong again Doug, unless you want to claim that because I
can't produce the investigative notes of CPS investigators, and the
police, those that beat their children to death were mostly those that
started off confessing to it as having NEVER SPANKED THEIR CHILDREN AND
ONLY THIS ONCE DECIDED THAT BEATING THEM TO DEATH WOULD BE ENTERTAINING.

You know perfectly well that the vast majority of physical injuries to
children that are intentional start as "spankings." "Discipline" that
got out of hand.

Here's an interesting little piece for you to consider, with an even
more interesting axiom claimed.

Over in a.p.spanking there was a long running argument about the
efficacy of using "hot pepper" as a discipline tool on children. In fact
the wife of Howie Mandell the comedian, mentioned it in a book or piece
of information she wrote on parenting, as having used it herself.

It was quite a controversy in the homeschooling community with outrage
on both sides. "Harmless" one side said, "Abusive and dangerous," the
other claimed. Guess which I said?

There's the background. He's the more authoritative info than our
bickering.

http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/con...cety pe=HWCIT
http://tinyurl.com/eel9w

Note the commentary by this researcher on the frequency of abuse fatalities:

'

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Fatal pepper aspiration

S. D. Cohle, J. D. Trestrail 3rd, M. A. Graham, D. W. Oxley, B. Walp and
J. Jachimczyk
Blodgett Memorial Medical Center, Grand Rapids, Mich 49506.

Eight patients (five previously undescribed) died due to aspiration of
pepper. Seven deaths involved homicides, and one death was accidental in
a child with documented pica. The pepper was administered by the mothers
in three children and by a foster mother, the mother's boyfriend, an
adult male friend, and the child's godfather in one case each. Homicidal
pepper aspiration shares many of the features of more conventional child
abuse: in each instance, the child was being punished, four of the seven
assailants initially gave incorrect histories, and four children were
chronically abused. The facts that each death occurred in a different
state and that five of the seven homicides occurred within the two years
preceding the preparation of this report suggest that this form of child
abuse is not confined to any single part of the country and may be
increasing in infrequency.
"

This was 1988, Doug. 18 years ago, and I assure you, more cases have
come up since.

Here's the line YOU want to burn into your mind, and see if it impacts
your self delusion:

"Homicidal pepper aspiration shares many of the features of more
conventional child abuse: in each instance, the child was being
punished, ... "

Kane



--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

The three main categories of maltreatment related to fatalities were
neglect (35.5%), combinations of maltreatments (30.2%), and physical abuse
(28.3%), (figure 4-3).7 Medical neglect accounted for 1.4 percent of
fatalities."
USDHHS does not break out the fatalities by cause -- abuse or neglect.

The hell they didn't and right on the page YOU CITED.

Hi, Kane,

The 30.2% of fatalities due to a combination of maltreatments do not break
out whether it was abuse or neglect. It lists them in combination.

Don't tell me your are going to try and run another NCIC ignorance number
on us when the information you claim doesn't exist YOU cited.

As your latest example proved, the FBI only allows law enforcement access to
its NCIC data base, as I said. The data I cited has a category that
includes both neglect and abuse, so fatalities in that category cannot be
separated out abuse or neglect. Obviously.

Dragon's Girl wrote:
Doug,
Sorry about my posting I am in a rush.
I just wonder, myself, how many of the children in the stats would have been
killed by parents, rather than foster care, had they not been removed from
their parents.
It does not justify what the fosters and adopters do with these kids, but it
does make me wonder what the outcome would be if the children were left with
their families.

Prepare to be spun.

I have asked essentially this question when he's quoted the data.

In addition there has never been an adequate response that would rebut
my point when I have shown that the foster parent population is a
captive demographic, and by LAW in our country, the general population
is not.

I personally have FOUGHT intrusions into families by government when
they have tried the "preemptive" legislated BS such as "home visits to
newborns by public health nurses."

I don't believe in it. And you know my position on protecting children.
If we can do ANYTHING LEGAL to protect children I am for it.

There is a vast number of cases of abuse, and even homicide we well
never know about, other than estimates by LE researchers and CDC funded
research on this issue.

It stands to reason that things that happen behind closed doors can and
have been successfully concealed.

Foster parents cannot maintain a permanently closed door.

A bio parent can kill a child, and pick and move immediately and no one
at the new location will know there was a child who is now missing, and
the people back home can be bull****ted with "little Alphonse had a
fever, succumbed to a disease and we were requested to have his body
cremated, etc. blah blah blah."

Babies bodies are found that NO source is ever located for.

http://tinyurl.com/lqdp5

"Results 1 - 10 of about 47,900,000 for baby's body found ."

Of course the total is raw, duplicate and unrelated entries would be
heavy, but imagine, if you will, that out of 47 million it has to be at
the least a few thousand a year that are murdered.

What we have in the data from the USDHHS is two demographics being
mentioned, and the agency reporting does not itself make these
calculations of 3 times more this, and 8 times more that, but outsiders
do the apples to oranges comparison for effect. Propagandists.

Been going on here for years.

Kane



"Doug" wrote in message
...
Over a thousand a year. My bet is not ONE of those murderous parents
thinks CPS is a useful agency.

Nearly 1,500 a year kill their children. Pretty much year in and year
out. Think how that mounts up in totals.
Hi, Kane,

No, your source reports that 1,490 children died as the result of abuse
and neglect in 2004. Many of those children were killed by foster carers
and caregivers other than parents.

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/p...four.htm#child

Number of Child Fatalities

During 2004, an estimated 1,490 children died (compared to 1,460 children
for 2003) from abuse or neglect ...
See?

Age and Sex of Fatalities

Based on data from 32 States, more than fourfifths (81.0%) of children
who were killed were younger than 4 years of age, 11.5 percent were 4-7
years of age, 4.1 percent were 8-11 years of age, and 3.4 percent were
12-17 years of age (figure 4-1).

The youngest children experienced the highest rates of fatalities. Infant
boys (younger than 1 year) had a fatality rate of 18 deaths per 100,000
boys of the same age.3 Infant girls (younger than 1 year) had a fatality
rate of 17 deaths per 100,000 girls of the same age. In general, fatality
rates for both boys and girls decreased with the age of the children. ...

Real children. Living, breathing, precious children. Just like our own.
Only now dead. Forever. By the hand of their parents.
No. These are USDHHS figures about the total number of fatalities as the
result of abuse and neglect committed by all caregivers. Many died at the
hands of foster caregivers and carers other than parents.

About a thousand children a year that die at the hands of their parents
do so because of "discipline" that escalated to murder. In other words,
two thirds of the total each year were "disciplined to death."
Not at all so. This contention is not in any fashion supported by your
source.

And these creeps wonder why anyone would be interested in legislation to
end spanking.
They may instead be interested in legislation that would end the child
fatalities due to abuse and neglect.





--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin