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Poll: Birth Control



 
 
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  #131  
Old December 24th 05, 06:46 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
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Default Birth Control

"Circe" ) writes:
"Catherine Woodgold" wrote in message
...
"Circe" ) writes:
"Amy" wrote in message
oups.com...
...but I should "suck it up" and continue to take the pill, or get an
IUD, or get sterilized myself, or ....?

In a word, yes.

No, I'm sorry, we both have
sex, we both have responsiblities, and when the time comes to make the
decision that we're done reproducing, the responsiblity is going to be
his, because up until then the responsiblity is mine. That's just
biology. It's not fair, and I don't have to like it, and neither does
he.

Sorry, but biology says that his body is not your body. The law says you
don't own his body.


I don't get it. Sure, she doesn't own his body; but aren't
you talking above as if you own her body? What gives
you the right to say she should just suck it up?


Um, no. I'm saying that a mutual decision has to be made on contraception
and that one or the other of them is going to have to be the one to "do the
deed". Whether it's Amy or her husband, I can't say. But it's up to the two
of THEM to decide between THEM what to do. It's not for Amy to say to her
husband "Suck it up and get a vasectomy whether you want one or not" any
more than it's up to her husband to say "Suck it up and keep taking care of
this yourself". Neither one is a respectful attitude to have towards one's
spouse.

Really, Catherine, I'm stunned. You're usually so good at recognizing when
people are being disrespectful to one another that I'm shocked you don't see
the problem here.
--
Be well, Barbara


There seems to be some sort of misunderstanding. I think you
wrote "In a word, yes" and that in context, that "yes" seemed
to mean that Amy should just "suck it up". Then later, you
wrote "Um, no," which seemed to mean that that wasn't what
the "yes" meant, after all. Maybe you could try again answering
Amy's question at the top of this post?

I think the idea of Amy saying "suck it up" to her husband
is a straw man. That's a phrase she posted anonymously on
a newsgroup -- not, as far as I know, a quote of anything
she had said, or was intending to say, to her husband.

I think the use of "suck it up" was an expression of anger,
and I think anger is natural and perhaps even productive
when one realizes one has been carrying more than a fair
share of a burden in a relationship and one begins thinking
about how to go about arranging to change that. Expressing
the anger directly as anger towards the person one is angry
at may be counterproductive, but expressing it privately can
be a first step towards realizing how much one wants a change
to happen, and generating the sort of energy that can lead to
setting aside resources (such as time to think it over methodically)
that can eventually have positive results.
  #132  
Old December 24th 05, 06:49 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
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Default Birth Control

"Circe" ) writes:
What have you heard? IUDs got a really bad reputation back in the 1970s due
to a bad product called the Dalkon shield. There is a small risk of
infection immediately following insertion, but that seems to be quite rare.
Other than that, I think that IUDs generally cause fewer health problems for
women than BC pills.


My understanding is that all IUD's involve something that can be
called infection. The uterus is normally free of bacteria, but
there is a zone around an IUD which contains bacteria. The zone
can vary in size and shape and type of tissue penetrated.
The question may be better phrased, not "is there an infection or
not," but "how extensive is the bacterial zone?"
  #133  
Old December 24th 05, 06:54 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
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"Cathy Weeks" ) writes:
and NFP is actualy MUCH higher if you go to the effort to do it right.


That's my understanding, too.

Now, I've heard people point to the IUD and say "I know such and such,
and she got pregnant on the IUD". And they use that as a reason the
IUD is bad. I'm not sure why, but I so rarely hear people talk about
vasectomy babies.


Well, maybe getting pregnant on the IUD is much scarier than
getting pregant with a vasectomy. The complications for the baby
can be rather horrible. Might be a reason it would be
talked about more.
  #134  
Old December 24th 05, 06:59 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
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"Circe" ) writes:
Really, what I'm having trouble with isn't her position, it's her attitude.
There's a "I did this being pregnant, having babies, taking birth control I
don't like for YOU and now you have to do THIS for ME" thing in there that
I find troubling. First of all, it implies that she didn't want to have
babies and is doing it purely for her husband's benefit, which is surely not
true (but if it isn't, there's another problem here!). Second, it implies
that she's taking contraceptive for HIS benefit, too (i.e., SHE gets no
benefit from not getting pregnant when she doesn't want to). I just think
starting from this position, which is both dogmatic and hostile. when
discussing something your spouse is uncomfortable with from the get-go is a
good way to go right up his nose and solidify his rejection of the whole
idea.


I don't think those things are necessarily implied.

If I'm playing a card game and I say, "Well, you dealt the
cards last hand, so now it's my turn to deal the cards,"
that doesn't imply that I'm not enjoying the game or that
I didn't want to play in the first place.
  #135  
Old December 24th 05, 08:02 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
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Default Birth Control


Catherine Woodgold wrote:
"Circe" ) writes:
Well, there's "force" and there's "force". Telling your spouse you're not
going to have sex with him/her any more until he/she does X is a form of
coercion, and anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling herself.


So -- how does this work the other way around? If she mentions
the idea of a vasectomy and he says he's not willing to do that --
isn't he coercing her just as much?


No, he is not coercing her just as much. Saying "*I* will not doing
something" is not nearly as coercive as saying "*you* will do
something."

I think there's an important subtle difference between
"I'm not going to have sex until you have a V" and
"I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to take pills (or etc.) any more
and I don't want more children, either."


I agree... and it seems to contradict your statement above.

Cathy Weeks

  #136  
Old December 24th 05, 08:07 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
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Default Birth Control


Catherine Woodgold wrote:

I think the idea of Amy saying "suck it up" to her husband
is a straw man. That's a phrase she posted anonymously on
a newsgroup -- not, as far as I know, a quote of anything
she had said, or was intending to say, to her husband.


I have thought this all along - that likely she and her husband do NOT
communicate as she was describing (and it *was* a hypothetical
situation, as they aren't ready to stop having kids yet) - I have a
hard time imagining any partnership surviving for long if that *is* how
they interracted.

Cathy Weeks

  #137  
Old December 24th 05, 10:02 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
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Default Birth Control

Cathy Weeks writes:

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
"Circe" ) writes: Well, there's "force" and there's
"force". Telling your spouse you're not going to have sex with him/her
any more until he/she does X is a form of coercion, and anyone who
thinks otherwise is fooling herself.

So -- how does this work the other way around? If she mentions the idea
of a vasectomy and he says he's not willing to do that -- isn't he
coercing her just as much?


No, he is not coercing her just as much. Saying "*I* will not doing
something" is not nearly as coercive as saying "*you* will do
something."


Right - and an example is that saying "I will not be having vaginal sex
with you unless we're protected by a form of contraception managed by you,
not me" is *not* coercion to get a vasectomy, and anyone who thinks it is
is fooling herself, IMNSHO. I'm shocked to find people here who think it's
impossible to have a happy relationship without vaginal sex, to such an
extent that they apparently think it's perfectly OK to pressure a woman
(never a man, note) to modify her body by hardware or drugs in order to
avoid that terrible fate, absence of vaginal sex. Get a grip. If it's so
important to *this particular* couple, then presumably having worked out
that starting from the basis of their own initial feelings it's the only
possible solution, they may do some soul-searching about those initial
feeling and maybe modify them. OK. But to rule it out as an option for
consideration, without knowing anything about this particular couple's
relationship - honestly, how absurd can you get?!

The underlying theme that I'm hearing here and that's making me angry is
the old, old assumption that it's not OK for a woman to own her body and
say what she will and won't do with it. Sex is, or should be, a gift freely
given on both sides. If a couple isn't in a position to give that gift to
one another at some stage of their lives, let them give other gifts, but
don't tell the woman that sex has to happen and she has to do whatever it
takes to make it possible.

Sidheag
DS Colin Oct 27 2003





  #138  
Old December 25th 05, 08:37 AM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
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Default Birth Control

Catherine Woodgold writes:
: "Circe" ) writes:
: Well, there's "force" and there's "force". Telling your spouse you're not
: going to have sex with him/her any more until he/she does X is a form of
: coercion, and anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling herself.

: So -- how does this work the other way around? If she mentions
: the idea of a vasectomy and he says he's not willing to do that --
: isn't he coercing her just as much?

OK. So I will post one of my rare posts on this thread...

Yes and no. If he only says he is not willing to get a V, then
it doesn't qualify as coercion. ... yet.

But if he says I am not willing to take any responsibility for the
birth control, I expect you to do it, and I expect to keep having
sex, then it does.

It depends on how far he takes his statement and what compromises
he is (not) willing to make.

Larry

Back to lurkdom, where it is more fun anyway!
  #139  
Old December 25th 05, 08:40 AM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
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Default Birth Control

I don't know of anybody is listening, but nice post.
Larry

writes:
: This is being typed late at night and in rather a rush, and because my
: newsgroups aren't working and I'm going through Google, it's being
: typed in Word first and then cut and pasted in. So please excuse me if
: it's a) incoherent and b) crappily formatted.

: Something that I've learned the hard and painful way is that it is a
: Bad Idea for me to lose sight of the idea that our marriage is about
: working together as a team. This involves a lot of things, and these
: things include respect for each other's viewpoints and a willingness
: to make decisions together rather than laying down the law.

: No matter how sure I am that I'm right on a particular issue, no
: matter how unwilling I feel to compromise, I've found that presenting
: it as "This is the way we're doing it, so suck it up and deal with
: it" is a really, really bad idea. It's a bad idea because what it
: really means is "I do not have enough respect for you to think that
: your opinion on the subject is even worth taking into account. You are
: a nonentity in this decision." This does not promote marital
: harmony. It fails to promote marital harmony in much the same way that
: Saddam Hussein failed to promote peace on earth and goodwill towards
: men.

: What I have learned, and what I wish to hell I could always remember
: myself when I'm dealing with situations in real life rather than
: reading about them on Usenet, is that the thorny issues in life are
: things we deal with together, because that's all part of being a
: team. Which means ditching the "Suck it up and deal with it"
: attitude in favour of "Sweetie, we've got a problem here. This is
: the way I see it - what do you think?"

: A lot of people in this thread seem to be talking as though the issue
: here was which partner in this marriage is going to coerce the other
: partner into doing things _their_ way. When I have tried approaching
: problems in our marriage with that attitude, it didn't work. Oh,
: boy, did it not work. Of course, that doesn't mean that it
: wouldn't work for anyone else. But I've found that what works for
: us is to stop thinking in terms of which of us gets our way, and start
: thinking in terms of there being a problem here that we need to work
: together on dealing with, and bring _that_ attitude to the discussion
: with my husband instead. After all, that's the attitude he tries to
: use with me, and that's the attitude I _like_ him to use with me
: rather than a "Do things this way" attitude. So, it's only fair.


: All the best,

: Sarah

: --
:
http://www.goodenoughmummy.blogspot.com

: But how do we _know_ that nobody ever said on their deathbed that they
: wished they'd spent more time at the office?

 




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