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#41
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OT - Potty training - can it be child-led? (xpost)
LisaBell wrote:
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:09:18 -0500, "Sophie" wrote: Sophie #4 due 7/18/04 Hey Sophie....I didn't know you were already expecting #4. Congrats! --Lisabell Me either. Congratulations!!! :-) I'm happy for you. -- Nikki Mama to Hunter (4) and Luke (2) |
#42
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OT - Potty training - can it be child-led? (xpost)
Whot? I'm not that old, my mom always had an automatic washer, my
siblings are younger than me by up to 8 years, and we all trained before 2. And a few kids will train early. Sure. All kids are different. Just as some walk and talk early and meet other milestones early, some potty train early. One of the kids in the preschool knew all his letters at well before his second birthday. My DS uses the toilet and has for 8 months now, though at 14mo ,he's just starting to have language skills and mobility, so I anticipate it will move more quickly now as he can (and occasionally does) take himself to the bathroom. Your son has been using the toilet since he was 6 months old? I trust you are talking about a rather different method of potty training then. There are, of course, many different mthods out there. Up until about 50 years ago, most mothers 'trained' their kids using a mixture of habit training (putting the child on the potty very often, so the child would come to associate the feeling of the toilet seat with the need to push) and mother training (mom would watch baby for the change of expression that indicated baby was going to have a bowel movement) (and an expectation of frequent accidents). In slightly more recent times (say, until about 20 years ago, there was yet a different method, used to train kids typically at around 18 months to 2 years. I don't think there's anything inherantly "wrong" with any of them, but they do strike me as a lot of unnecessary work, when most kids will train pretty quickly and easily when they are ready, which usually comes a little later, (and does NOT mean "waiting until junior insists on using the toilet", but simply waiting until junior shows physiological readiness AND interest.) I'm not sure we can chalk it up to washing facilities or trauma. I'm curious why you think 40-50 years ago people didn't want to wash diapers but would put in the "intense effort" and "deal..with very freuqent accidents"...I would think if it didn't pay off, they wouldn't bother. I It was all those, and it was also the fact that it was what parents were told to do. Early toilet training was considered vital for the child's health and well being. (Both physical and emotional.) And if it took months to acheive, and required taking the child to the toilet on an hourly basis for months on end... well ... that's what you did. I don't see why it has to be either child led or cruel. That seems to be the options offered. Why can't the parent direct and lead, and not force or traumatise? Did you see the word "cruel" or "angst" appear anywhere in my post? I'm talking about practicalities here. I work with about half a dozen kids of this age range on a daily basis. NONE of them are ready for potty training. Several of the parents have been trying for months. One little boy was apparently 'trained' for a while. Then he suddenly started having accidents. Every single day. I'd ask him, literally every15 minutes, if he had to use the potty. He'd say no. "Are you sure? Let's try, ok?" "No, I don't have to." (He's 2 1/2, and extremely verbal and smart. His mother had trained him just after he turned 2). She tried sending him to school without underwear, thinking that the panties felt like a diaper to him. Didn't help, just meant an even bigger mess when he had an accident. So, finally, she put him back in diapers. Maybe in another few months he'll really be ready. And we'll try again. Why is this much different than learning to eat with a fork or learn colors? We expose kids to THOSE kinds of skills far earlier than we expect mastery, and we shape their behaviours to end up with the "finished" result, but can see basic skills developing quite Sure. And the kids are being exposed. We 'talk up' the potty. The preschool kids see the potty in the bathroom. They are welcome to try sitting on it anytime they choose, bare bottomed or with a diaper. And they think it's lots of fun. But it IS well known that for most kids, if you wait until they are physiologically and emotionally ready, training DOES go pretty quickly (days or weeks rather than months to pretty good reliability -- yeah, there will still be the occassional accident, but not daily or many times daily). So, unless you have a child who is pleading to use the potty early, why push it before he's ready? What do either of you gain? (And yeah, like it or not, 'partial mastery' of toileting IS more problematic from a sanitary and practical standpoint than 'partial mastery' of colors or table manners.) But sure, if a mom comes to me and says "I want to start serious potty training with Johnny today. I have him in underwear. Please take him to the toilet every 20 minutes," I am more than happy to oblige, and am fully aware that there will be accidents and puddles along the way. But if, after a couple of weeks of this, there are still more puddles that potty successes, I may well ask Johnny's mother how training is going at home, since it isn't going so well at school. (And if home isn't going well either, I might suggest that we stop for a while until Johnny shows more signs of readiness.) Naomi CAPPA Certified Lactation Educator (either remove spamblock or change address to to e-mail reply.) |
#43
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OT - Potty training - can it be child-led? (xpost)
"Dawn Lawson" wrote in message news:_b9vb.442110$6C4.329142@pd7tw1no... Jenrose wrote: Here's how "I" trained my daughter. She said, "Me be naked." I said, "You not pee on floor." She said, "Okay." *g* I can picture that. I've wiped up a few puddles, but it's NBD and he's learning where it comes from and how it feels. Pee's sterile. I was living with my parents. They had carpets. Pee on the floor was NOT something I was willing to deal with, period. I can't stand it when pets do that and I can't stand it when kids do that. We had one puddle. I just put her in her diaper immediately, saying, "Oops, you forgot. We'll have the diaper on now." Pee may be sterile, but if you've got a toddler addicted to garlic capsules (long story) it's awfully stinky in a really pervasive sort of way. I found the Baby Bjorn potty to be excellent for her.. much less difficult than the more traditional models. Jenrose |
#45
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OT - Potty training - can it be child-led? (not xpost) *long*
Naomi Pardue wrote: Whot? I'm not that old, my mom always had an automatic washer, my siblings are younger than me by up to 8 years, and we all trained before 2. And a few kids will train early. Sure. Well, three of us. Don't think it was just that mom was lucky, cuz my grandmother did it too. Maybe we're a spechul family, but I really don't think so, because I'm not the only person doing it, and at some point, some of these people would hit a "late" kid, I'd think. Your son has been using the toilet since he was 6 months old? yes. I trust you are talking about a rather different method of potty training then. I think so. Somehow I don't see that as a negative thing at ALL, if the option is to wait 3 years. There are, of course, many different mthods out there. Up until about 50 years ago, most mothers 'trained' their kids using a mixture of habit training (putting the child on the potty very often, so the child would come to associate the feeling of the toilet seat with the need to push) and mother training (mom would watch baby for the change of expression that indicated baby was going to have a bowel movement) (and an expectation of frequent accidents). if by "accident" you mean a BM in a diaper, then it's not a big deal. You don't HAVE to have the kid in regular underwear to train them. As for "mother training" that seems to be highly scorned these days, but surely the better way to link sensation with action for the child is to "catch" the baby in the midst of the appropriate sensation. In slightly more recent times (say, until about 20 years ago, there was yet a different method, used to train kids typically at around 18 months to 2 years. Cuold you describe it? I don't think there's anything inherantly "wrong" with any of them, but they do strike me as a lot of unnecessary work I simply do NOT understand why what I am doing could *possibly* be more work than changing dirty diapers. At ALL. I'm not saying that with anger, but I absolutely postively am baffled by the constant refrain I hear that being aware of one's small child's habits is somehow more work than changing 3 or more YEARS of dirty diapers. , when most kids will train pretty quickly and easily when they are ready, which usually comes a little later, (and does NOT mean "waiting until junior insists on using the toilet", but simply waiting until junior shows physiological readiness AND interest.) Well, people are free to wait if they want, but I have zero intentions of waiting for him to be dry for hours and want to flush the toilet a lot to start conditioning him to associate his bodily functions with sitting on the toilet. No stress, very very few dirty diapers. I'm not sure we can chalk it up to washing facilities or trauma. I'm curious why you think 40-50 years ago people didn't want to wash diapers but would put in the "intense effort" and "deal..with very freuqent accidents"...I would think if it didn't pay off, they wouldn't bother. I It was all those, I have to respectfully disagree. My mother isn't THAT far from child raising AND was a kindergarten and early intervention teacher for 30ish years. She certainly didn't find potty training intense effort, or fraught with "frequent accidents" but she approached it far differently than the "wait and see if Jr shows interest" way I keep reading and hearing about. and it was also the fact that it was what parents were told to do. Early toilet training was considered vital for the child's health and well being. (Both physical and emotional.) And if it took months to acheive, and required taking the child to the toilet on an hourly basis for months on end... well ... that's what you did. That's not what the family stories I have relate. Where do you find your accounts? (curious, not confrontational) I don't see why it has to be either child led or cruel. That seems to be the options offered. Why can't the parent direct and lead, and not force or traumatise? Did you see the word "cruel" or "angst" appear anywhere in my post? I'm talking about practicalities here. I find pottying my DS far more practical than the alternatives. I keep hearing how a child is not emotionally or physically ready and I suppose the blank left to fill in there is that starting earlier sets up some sort of negative situation. Plus I hear a lot of people fretting about their kids' reactions to potty training. I'd say "anxiety" features pretty highly in those discussion. I work with about half a dozen kids of this age range on a daily basis. NONE of them are ready for potty training. Several of the parents have been trying for months. Can it not be considered that perhaps the problem is with the standard methods used?? If I was not getting success after months of trying one method, I would be questioning the method. I REALLY do not believe that earlier training is so incredibly difficult, timeconsuming, messy and not worth trying. I REALLY don't get the idea of diapers til 3. I'm honestly trying to sort this out, because as I have said, it's a bit of a freak show atmosphere when people find out that DS is pooping on the toilet and has for a long time now. Where did this whole idea of waiting so long COME from? One little boy was apparently 'trained' for a while. Then he suddenly started having accidents. Every single day. I'd ask him, literally every15 minutes, if he had to use the potty. He'd say no. "Are you sure? Let's try, ok?" "No, I don't have to." Ok, but does ANYone have to go to the bathroom every 15 minutes? It's not related to his body sensations at all, as far as I can figure it. To me, as I've said before, the earliest idea of using the potty has to be linked to the sensation of NEEDING to go. Temporal connection. Seems to me that would be FAR far faster than the sort of crap shoot (hmmmm, pun not intended) approach of taking the kid to the bathroom every 20 minutes in hopes of getting the right moment now and then. I've been trying to figure out what the difference in approach really is. I keep thinking that if a horse can be trained to eliminate in a specific area or on command, and a cat can be trained to use the toilet, a dog to use a specific area, surely some of the methods used for these situations can be brought into play for training a kid?? Why is this much different than learning to eat with a fork or learn colors? We expose kids to THOSE kinds of skills far earlier than we expect mastery, and we shape their behaviours to end up with the "finished" result, but can see basic skills developing quite Sure. And the kids are being exposed. We 'talk up' the potty. The preschool kids see the potty in the bathroom. They are welcome to try sitting on it anytime they choose, bare bottomed or with a diaper. And they think it's lots of fun. But what has that to do with linking their physical sensations to the process? That's the part that seems to be lacking in the "modern" approach. The part that makes an early connection between what they feel and what they do. I agree that training shouldn't be stressful, but the idea of toilet as "fun" without a connection to what it's FOR is a little strange to me. But it IS well known that for most kids, if you wait until they are physiologically and emotionally ready, training DOES go pretty quickly (days or weeks rather than months to pretty good reliability -- yeah, there will still be the occassional accident, but not daily or many times daily) I don't have daily or many daily accidents with DS and his bowel movements. I'd say there's probably less than one a week, and that usually because his signals were missed, not because he didn't know. IOW, my bad, not his unreadiness. I'm just starting to work on pee training with him, now that he's walking. Many people who are more into the EC methods have far younger kids than him mostly clean and dry. .. So, unless you have a child who is pleading to use the potty early, why push it before he's ready? I'm not "pushing", but I'm not sitting around waiting for some future date either. I started because it seemed more sanitary and practical than dabbling about with dirty diapers, because I knew it could be done, and continued because DS quickly showed his preference and it was very easy and to me, sensible. What do either of you gain? ??? really??? Just to start the list, *I* gain more pleasant laundry duty, a chance to help DS be more comfortable and *he* gains the freedom from a diaper full of squooshed up, smeared on his butt, smelly poop. (And yeah, like it or not, 'partial mastery' of toileting IS more problematic from a sanitary and practical standpoint than 'partial mastery' of colors or table manners.) Nope. not here. He's in diapers atm, but a dirty one is a rarity. Partial mastery in inappropriate clothing for that level of mastery, yes, I can see where you're coming from there. But is that the kid's problem? But sure, if a mom comes to me and says "I want to start serious potty training with Johnny today. I have him in underwear. Please take him to the toilet every 20 minutes," I am more than happy to oblige I still fail to see how this method is engineered to work. I have a sneaking suspicion that there's a behaviour psychologist or two who'd rework the entire process to achieve faster and better results. I think (my opinion, as a Zoology/Psychology grad) that there's a lot of logic and conditioning principles missing from the methods I hear about, which isn't a jab at anyone in particular, but more of the sort of mainstream approach right now. People scoff at EC type toileting, but why?? Somehow it seems wrong to condition a kid for 2 or 3 years to use a diaper and then wonder why they find it unsettling to have to change their pattern. Some of the problems I'm hearing strike me as the child not being too *young* to start potty training, but rather having passed the earlier window where they may have accepted the use of the potty with less anxiety and resistance. i've about said all I can on this, I'm not going to stop what I'm doing just because DS isn't "old enough" to be doing what he's doing. He's not stressed, I'm not stressed, my sanitary and practical situation is far better than the moms I know who's similar aged kids are not using teh toilet, and I have no intention of having a 3yo in diapers. If anyone wants to email me to talk about earlier training than the "norm", I'm happy to chat about it. I don't think I'm necessarily the best source of information, but it's working just dandy here, and did for my mother and grandmother as well. :-) Dawn |
#46
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OT - Potty training - can it be child-led? (xpost)
I find this whole discussion really interesting. I think I'm really struck
by the fact that my mother's generation who brought up babies in the 60's saw early potty play as 'no big deal' and a practical part of the toilet routine from an early age. I also think a lot of women of this age are SCARED to advise us because they lack the self-esteem and access to knowledge that we take for granted (e.g. we are so much more informed about breastfeeding than they were) and so they don't like to question the accepted practice NOW becuase they think it is more 'scientific' or they will be corrected with facts and figures. (I KNOW that not ALL women are like that, and plenty of you have dragon-mothers who are willing to let you know their opinion on EVERYTHING, but basically I think there is a lack of trust between the generations - particularly as the age gap is widening between us and our mothers - and perhaps that is contributing to our failure to trust our mother's experience and wisdom on baby-training matters in general.) I was discussing it with a friend of mine recently who is in her late-sixties, and she said she had all her babies trained around 18 months - she said they were "clean by 12 months and dry by 18 months". That seems to be a fairly common experience. My mother thinks it extraordinary that we now have 3-4 year olds who are not potty trained. She just doesn't understand why it's such a big deal. To me, like Dawn, I don't understand WHY we abandoned this method. There doesn't seem to be any reason for it. I can't help but wonder whether it is a victory on behalf of the disposable nappy industry which has come into being since our mother's time. I think maybe it's just a con to keep us in nappies longer. And why not? The disposable nappy market is worth $4 billion a year. I was reading a site recommended by the BBC for potty training: http://www.pottytrainingtips.com/preparing-tips.htm and it says: - Make potty training your top priority. Make potty training a top priority on a consistent basis when you have the emotional and physical energy to do it. Even if your child shows signs of potty training readiness, you may not be ready for it as a parent. - Pick a potty day. Get a calendar and ask your child when s/he wants to begin to learn how to use the potty. Circle the date in a bright color and keep reminding her/him that "potty day" is almost here. Perhaps this is a bit of an extreme site, but to me this seems like it is making such a HUGE deal out of what should be a natural and simple process. It also seems like a perfect way to introduce stress into a small child's life, and into their parent's ("you may not be ready for it as a parent"?!). I definitely prefer to start 'em young, associating the feeling of peeing or pooing with sitting on the potty. It seems a far more natural approach to me. Appreciating the discussion, ROSIE "Naomi Pardue" wrote in message ... Whot? I'm not that old, my mom always had an automatic washer, my siblings are younger than me by up to 8 years, and we all trained before 2. And a few kids will train early. Sure. All kids are different. Just as some walk and talk early and meet other milestones early, some potty train early. One of the kids in the preschool knew all his letters at well before his second birthday. My DS uses the toilet and has for 8 months now, though at 14mo ,he's just starting to have language skills and mobility, so I anticipate it will move more quickly now as he can (and occasionally does) take himself to the bathroom. Your son has been using the toilet since he was 6 months old? I trust you are talking about a rather different method of potty training then. There are, of course, many different mthods out there. Up until about 50 years ago, most mothers 'trained' their kids using a mixture of habit training (putting the child on the potty very often, so the child would come to associate the feeling of the toilet seat with the need to push) and mother training (mom would watch baby for the change of expression that indicated baby was going to have a bowel movement) (and an expectation of frequent accidents). In slightly more recent times (say, until about 20 years ago, there was yet a different method, used to train kids typically at around 18 months to 2 years. I don't think there's anything inherantly "wrong" with any of them, but they do strike me as a lot of unnecessary work, when most kids will train pretty quickly and easily when they are ready, which usually comes a little later, (and does NOT mean "waiting until junior insists on using the toilet", but simply waiting until junior shows physiological readiness AND interest.) I'm not sure we can chalk it up to washing facilities or trauma. I'm curious why you think 40-50 years ago people didn't want to wash diapers but would put in the "intense effort" and "deal..with very freuqent accidents"...I would think if it didn't pay off, they wouldn't bother. I It was all those, and it was also the fact that it was what parents were told to do. Early toilet training was considered vital for the child's health and well being. (Both physical and emotional.) And if it took months to acheive, and required taking the child to the toilet on an hourly basis for months on end... well ... that's what you did. I don't see why it has to be either child led or cruel. That seems to be the options offered. Why can't the parent direct and lead, and not force or traumatise? Did you see the word "cruel" or "angst" appear anywhere in my post? I'm talking about practicalities here. I work with about half a dozen kids of this age range on a daily basis. NONE of them are ready for potty training. Several of the parents have been trying for months. One little boy was apparently 'trained' for a while. Then he suddenly started having accidents. Every single day. I'd ask him, literally every15 minutes, if he had to use the potty. He'd say no. "Are you sure? Let's try, ok?" "No, I don't have to." (He's 2 1/2, and extremely verbal and smart. His mother had trained him just after he turned 2). She tried sending him to school without underwear, thinking that the panties felt like a diaper to him. Didn't help, just meant an even bigger mess when he had an accident. So, finally, she put him back in diapers. Maybe in another few months he'll really be ready. And we'll try again. Why is this much different than learning to eat with a fork or learn colors? We expose kids to THOSE kinds of skills far earlier than we expect mastery, and we shape their behaviours to end up with the "finished" result, but can see basic skills developing quite Sure. And the kids are being exposed. We 'talk up' the potty. The preschool kids see the potty in the bathroom. They are welcome to try sitting on it anytime they choose, bare bottomed or with a diaper. And they think it's lots of fun. But it IS well known that for most kids, if you wait until they are physiologically and emotionally ready, training DOES go pretty quickly (days or weeks rather than months to pretty good reliability -- yeah, there will still be the occassional accident, but not daily or many times daily). So, unless you have a child who is pleading to use the potty early, why push it before he's ready? What do either of you gain? (And yeah, like it or not, 'partial mastery' of toileting IS more problematic from a sanitary and practical standpoint than 'partial mastery' of colors or table manners.) But sure, if a mom comes to me and says "I want to start serious potty training with Johnny today. I have him in underwear. Please take him to the toilet every 20 minutes," I am more than happy to oblige, and am fully aware that there will be accidents and puddles along the way. But if, after a couple of weeks of this, there are still more puddles that potty successes, I may well ask Johnny's mother how training is going at home, since it isn't going so well at school. (And if home isn't going well either, I might suggest that we stop for a while until Johnny shows more signs of readiness.) Naomi CAPPA Certified Lactation Educator (either remove spamblock or change address to to reply.) |
#47
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OT - Potty training - can it be child-led? (xpost)
"Nikki" wrote in message ... LisaBell wrote: On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:09:18 -0500, "Sophie" wrote: Sophie #4 due 7/18/04 Hey Sophie....I didn't know you were already expecting #4. Congrats! --Lisabell Me either. Congratulations!!! :-) I'm happy for you. -- Nikki Mama to Hunter (4) and Luke (2) Thanks |
#48
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OT - Potty training - can it be child-led? (xpost)
"Cathy Weeks" wrote in message om... Hi all, My daughter is almost two, and all of a sudden has started asking to sit on the potty. She prefers to do it fully clothed, and while one of her parents are sitting on the toilet, but I figured it was time to start reading up on the topic. My guess is that she's still a bit young for this - she is starting to show some signs of readiness: She tells me when she poops, and is asking to be changed (a huge change from 18 months of HATING to be changed), but she isn't showing other signs - she doesn't hold her pee consciously as far as I can tell, or even understand the concept of waiting. My guess is that she's starting to be aware of the function of the toilet and is copying us. I got the potty out because she *asked* to poop on the potty (I about fell over in shock!). She's sat on the potty (mostly because she follows one of the adults into the bathroom several times, a couple of times with no diaper (at bath time) but hasn't actually gone in the toilet. She even "wiped" and threw the toilet paper into the potty! Now, long ago, after watching a family member go through a difficult potty training, where using the toilet turned into a power struggle (and as soon as they gave up - she decided to use the toilet), Chris and I decided that we would let Kivi train herself. When she was ready, she would ask US to train. The reasons go back further than that - Chris's mom had a lot of difficulty potty training him, and we decided that potty training should be child-led. However, that doesn't mean we know what we are doing with regard to the topic! My stepson trained easily when he was about 2 years 8 months, but his Mom did it while we were on our honeymoon, much to our relief. She just told us what to do when we got back. Are there any good potty training books or resources out there that follow our philosophy? Cathy Weeks Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01 Kids are so smart, sounds to me like she knows and that she is ready. From my experence and from what I have heard from family and friends it's seems that most children have learned to potty train through watching their parents and most of all other kids. When they see other kids using the potty they usally want to follow. Personally I don't think she is to young, my daughter was totally potty trained 2 weeks after her 1st Birthday all in 1 day. But then again she was off the bottle by the time she was 8 months and drank out of a sippy cup. Now I think my daughter was a little to young to be taken off the bottle so soon and some what pushed to be potty trained but the doctors thought is was great, especially coming from (at the time) a 19 year old mother. Does she have her own little potty? Are pull-ups something you are going to try? Good Luck!! Crystal |
#49
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OT - Potty training - can it be child-led? (xpost)
Hi - I've seen quite a few kids -- mostly girls -- train at about 2 years, and the kids were the ones who led the way. If you're concerned that she doesn't know when she's peeing, you might try to play a game with her. (Only do this if it's warm outside, or you have wood floors that are easy to clean.) Tell her that you're going to let her run around outside with just a dress on, no diaper. You'll take her portable potty outside with her. The game is to put her pee in the potty. Play the game just for one day, and during that day give her LOTS to drink. Think of some low-key way to deal with her accidents so that she'll neither get upset by them, nor be encouraged. Cheer her on whenever she gets *any* pee into the potty. If she's physiologically ready, she may well figure out the connection between a full bladder and the act of urination by the end of the day. If she doesn't, then she may be ALMOST ready, but not quite. The big hurdle in toilet training, no matter who leads the way, is establishing the cause-effect relationship between the feeling of a full bladder or bowel, and the act of elimination. Once the child understands the connection, then the ball is in the kid's court, and all you can do is encourage or get in the way. The game I suggested is one way of helping your child understand the connection, but certainly not the only way. It's a great feeling, not having to buy diapers anymore. (At least, not for daytime use. Nights are a completely separate issue.) --Beth Kevles http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner. NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would like me to reply. |
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OT - Potty training - can it be child-led? (xpost)
Rosie wrote: I was discussing it with a friend of mine recently who is in her late-sixties, and she said she had all her babies trained around 18 months - she said they were "clean by 12 months and dry by 18 months". Interesting, thanks. As I've not started pee training til DS walked, at nearly 13 mo, I was wondering what I could expect. I hadn't heard anyone talk about the lag in dryness over clean. (Intersting that I've lately read more people saying that they struggle with clean more than dry, as I found clean to be very easy) He's pretty much clean now (acutally has been for a long time) and today, when I left him upstairs while I changed the laundry over, he came and hollered at me at the gate, then took me to the bathroom so he KNOWS when he has to poop, and where to go. If I ask "where does poop go?" or say "lets go to the potty" he will point and go over and whack the lid. And he will not sit on the toilet if he doesn't have to go, and will not willingly come off if he's not finished. He definately gets it. Dawn |
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