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Unusually Sleepy Baby



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 12th 05, 12:11 PM
Sidheag McCormack
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Default Unusually Sleepy Baby

Anne Rogers writes:

now I'm surprised, the advice out there is quite confusing, but I've not
seen any that suggests that normal consumption is ok, more that some
consumption is ok, but seeming to indicated less than the normal
amounts, e.g. 1-2 units 1-2 times per week.


I'm not interested in the advice, I'm interested in the research. Do you
know any that's relevant? I don't, and I have looked.

There is no disputing that alcohol goes through to the breastmilk, what
is disputed is what affect that has on the baby, which seems to me to
satisfy both empirical evidence and a reasonable theoretical argument.


?!? I don't know what you can mean by this. There's no dispute that some
alcohol molecules end up in breastmilk. There are some alcohol molecules in
normal orange juice, too, fwiw. In neither case is there any empirical
evidence of those molecules doing harm to the baby, nor any good
theoretical argument that they could. (For those who like evolutionary
arguments, note that alcohol is a normal component of the diet we've
evolved to eat; ripe fruit naturally contains alcohol, and brewing is as
old as the human race.)

How much did you drink whilst you were pregnant?


None, as it happens. (Well, I had no whole drink - I did sometimes have a
sip of DH's.) The empirical evidence base [for abstinence, as opposed to
very low levels of drinking, being beneficial] is pretty shaky here too,
though, so although I chose not to drink I won't criticise someone who does
drink a little in pregnancy. For me, the fact that alcohol levels in the
foetus's blood are approximately the same as those in the mother's blood,
and that sometimes the level of alcohol in my blood has a perceptible
effect on the functioning of *my* brain, and that DS's brain was developing
at the time, came close enough to a theoretical argument that there might
be an effect on him [even if I drank little enough that there wasn't a
perceptible effect on me] that I chose not to drink. Someone else's MMV.

As an aside, there are multiple studies indicating that alcohol inhibits
let down, so though you've clearly had no problems with Colin, that
could be a factor in you not letting down for pumps.


No; I only drink in the evenings, and I seldom pumped in the evenings,
because that was when Colin fed most. Normally when I was pumping, there
was no alcohol in my body. I've never heard any suggestion that drinking
alcohol has a long-lasting effect on one's body's ability to let down,
effective outside the time when the alcohol is in the body, have you?

PS I am so used to low alcohol consumption that I think if I drunk 14
units a week I would feel I was an alcoholic! This is just personal
preference, I wouldn't drink more if I wasn't breastfeeding my body just
seems to suit 1 unit a week.


That's your choice, you know your body. But I do think it's unhelpful when
people misuse the term "alcoholic" so. Alcoholism is an *addiction* to
alcohol. It isn't about drinking any particular amount, let alone about
drinking within commonly given health guidelines!

Sidheag
DS Colin Oct 27 2003



  #12  
Old October 12th 05, 12:22 PM
Linz
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Default Unusually Sleepy Baby

Sidheag McCormack wrote:

I'm surprised you're shocked! Don't know about Cocoamum, but I drink
some alcohol most days, in the sense that most evenings I have a
glass of wine with my evening meal. I stay within the normal
recommendations that apply to all adult women - for the avoidance of
doubt about which guidelines, I mean no more than 14 units per week,
no more than 3 units on any one day, at least 2 alcohol-free days per
week - but I don't restrict alcohol any more than that because I'm
breastfeeding. There's neither any good empirical evidence, nor any
reasonable theoretical argument, that it's beneficial to do so.


You see? We are clones!


  #13  
Old October 12th 05, 12:44 PM
Anne Rogers
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Default Unusually Sleepy Baby

I'm not interested in the advice, I'm interested in the research. Do you
know any that's relevant? I don't, and I have looked.

I haven't looked particularly hard, it not being an issue for me, but I tend
to follow advice unless I can clearly see that it is wrong, the whole better
to be cautious thing.


There is no disputing that alcohol goes through to the breastmilk, what
is disputed is what affect that has on the baby, which seems to me to
satisfy both empirical evidence and a reasonable theoretical argument.


?!? I don't know what you can mean by this. There's no dispute that some
alcohol molecules end up in breastmilk. There are some alcohol molecules
in
normal orange juice, too, fwiw. In neither case is there any empirical
evidence of those molecules doing harm to the baby, nor any good
theoretical argument that they could. (For those who like evolutionary
arguments, note that alcohol is a normal component of the diet we've
evolved to eat; ripe fruit naturally contains alcohol, and brewing is as
old as the human race.)


yeah I know that, but we don't drink orange juice all day do we? Someone did
the calculation not long ago "Question about breastfeeding?" I can't find it
right now, but I think it came out that breastmilk had more alcohol than OJ.
Jenrose's post in reply to this thread is excellent, particularly pointing
out that the effect can be vastly different between different sized women
and different sized babies.

How much did you drink whilst you were pregnant?


None, as it happens. (Well, I had no whole drink - I did sometimes have a
sip of DH's.) The empirical evidence base [for abstinence, as opposed to
very low levels of drinking, being beneficial] is pretty shaky here too,


really? the stuff I read and this was studies, not just advice, gave quite
strong evidence for harm, particularly in the first trimester, I was
particularly looking at the link between alcohol and low birth weight and/or
IUGR and made the decision not to drink in my 2nd pregnancy, babies birth
weight increased by 3 pounds! Unfortunately I don't have links as it was
last August that I read them.

As an aside, there are multiple studies indicating that alcohol inhibits
let down, so though you've clearly had no problems with Colin, that
could be a factor in you not letting down for pumps.


No; I only drink in the evenings, and I seldom pumped in the evenings,
because that was when Colin fed most. Normally when I was pumping, there
was no alcohol in my body. I've never heard any suggestion that drinking
alcohol has a long-lasting effect on one's body's ability to let down,
effective outside the time when the alcohol is in the body, have you?


not sure, didn't read the studies only the abstracts, though I just saw this
in Jenrose's post

"I don't worry about waiting a certain amount of time after one beer. But I
do notice that my milk supply "peaks" from drinking a beer about 6 hours
after the fact, long after the alcohol has completely fled my system...if I
only drink one or two "servings" of alcohol."

which does make me wonder if it has a longer lasting effect


PS I am so used to low alcohol consumption that I think if I drunk 14
units a week I would feel I was an alcoholic! This is just personal
preference, I wouldn't drink more if I wasn't breastfeeding my body just
seems to suit 1 unit a week.


That's your choice, you know your body. But I do think it's unhelpful when
people misuse the term "alcoholic" so. Alcoholism is an *addiction* to
alcohol. It isn't about drinking any particular amount, let alone about
drinking within commonly given health guidelines!


not sure whether you suggest I am misusing the term here or not, but with
your clarification I conclude I am not, as if I did drink 14 units in one
week, I would have consumed them in an inappropriate manner at inappropriate
times and obviously if that continued addiction would be the correct word.

a while back I did the bbc's "are you younger than you think" or however way
they phrased it, according to their questions which were negatives for me
drinking more alcohol is the one thing I could change for the better (can't
change the fact people in my family have had certain illnesses etc.) and it
is something I think about, perhaps buying a wine box so it's on tap, but
then I have one drink and am reminded why I don't want to! I probably should
do it for my husbands sake, as I do the shopping and what not, he doesn't
really drink either, but he does enjoy it, so perhaps I should be
encouraging him to drink his ration of red wine!

Anne


  #14  
Old October 12th 05, 02:57 PM
Sidheag McCormack
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Default Unusually Sleepy Baby

Linz writes:

You see? We are clones!


I knew we would be :-) You know, we have to meet up one of these days.
We'll probably hate one another in person! I may be in your part of the
world in the spring some time... are you ever up in mine?

Sidheag
DS Colin Oct 27 2003



  #15  
Old October 12th 05, 03:12 PM
Nikki
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Default Unusually Sleepy Baby

Anne Rogers wrote:

if I did drink 14
units in one week, I would have consumed them in an inappropriate
manner at inappropriate times and obviously if that continued
addiction would be the correct word.


There is a difference between addiction and abuse. If one drinks
inappropriately then it is alcohol abuse. Addiction can certainly co-exist
with abuse but it doesn't have to be present to abuse alcohol. Addiction is
when one feels a physical and/or emotional *need* to drink.

Some people are more prone to addiction then others. Some people can really
abuse alcohol and not become addicted. Some people can become addicted
quite easily. Others can drink rather regularly and it isn't abusive or
addictive. It is very difficult to make blanket statements IMO.

--
Nikki
Hunter 4/99
Luke 4/01
EDD 4/06


  #16  
Old October 12th 05, 03:18 PM
Sidheag McCormack
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Posts: n/a
Default Unusually Sleepy Baby

Anne Rogers writes:

yeah I know that, but we don't drink orange juice all day do we? Someone
did the calculation not long ago "Question about breastfeeding?" I can't
find it right now, but I think it came out that breastmilk had more
alcohol than OJ.


I think I was the only person who mentioned orange juice in that thread,
and I certainly didn't say that, but I may be misremembering.

really? the stuff I read and this was studies, not just advice, gave
quite strong evidence for harm, particularly in the first trimester, I
was particularly looking at the link between alcohol and low birth
weight and/or IUGR and made the decision not to drink in my 2nd
pregnancy, babies birth weight increased by 3 pounds! Unfortunately I
don't have links as it was last August that I read them.


I think you'll find that those studies showed that "moderate drinking"
caused bad effects, and that "moderate drinking" was defined as something
like 2 units per day, every day. At least, that was what the respectable
studies I found when I looked into it said; that was a few years ago now.
Of course I'm not dismissing the idea that there might be effects to be
discovered at lower levels than that, maybe that apply to only some people
(so that they are difficult to find epidemiologically). How much did you
drink in your first pregnancy?

not sure, didn't read the studies only the abstracts, though I just saw
this in Jenrose's post


"I don't worry about waiting a certain amount of time after one beer.
But I do notice that my milk supply "peaks" from drinking a beer about 6
hours after the fact, long after the alcohol has completely fled my
system...if I only drink one or two "servings" of alcohol."


Whatever this is, it isn't evidence of, or even an anecdote supporting the
idea of, alcohol causing problems with let down after the alcohol has left
the body! I think she was saying this in the context of discussion about
whether the old wives' tale about beer being good for supply was true?
Someone said that it was the hops in beer that were the issue there. I have
no idea how long hop chemicals take to leave the body!

not sure whether you suggest I am misusing the term here or not, but
with your clarification I conclude I am not, as if I did drink 14 units
in one week, I would have consumed them in an inappropriate manner at
inappropriate times and obviously if that continued addiction would be
the correct word.


Yes, I suppose using a substance even though it's inappropriate within
one's life circumstances is a pretty good sign of addiction. I'm not sure
why you think this would necessarily be the case for you. (Obviously if you
went suddenly from drinking one unit per week to drinking 14 units per week
there would be a question about why, no disputing that!)

a while back I did the bbc's "are you younger than you think" or however
way they phrased it, according to their questions which were negatives
for me drinking more alcohol is the one thing I could change for the
better (can't change the fact people in my family have had certain
illnesses etc.) and it is something I think about, perhaps buying a wine
box so it's on tap, but then I have one drink and am reminded why I
don't want to! I probably should do it for my husbands sake, as I do the
shopping and what not, he doesn't really drink either, but he does enjoy
it, so perhaps I should be encouraging him to drink his ration of red
wine!


Lol, I don't think the evidence of red wine being beneficial is really
strong enough to make it wise for someone who doesn't enjoy it to drink it
for their health, but if your husband enjoys a glass of red wine, yes maybe
having a wine box around would be a good idea! Or, particularly if what he
actually likes is two glasses, getting a Vacuvin and using bottles might be
a good alternative. A bottle of wine can easily keep three or four days if
you remember to vacuvin the bottle as soon as you've poured what you want.
In our experience if you drink the bottle just one glass at a time, it
doesn't quite keep in good condition to the bottom of the bottle,
unfortunately. Maybe those wine keepers that use nitrogen would do better?
The trouble with a wine box if there's only one person drinking it is that
it's a long time to drink the same wine. (Can you tell DH experimented with
various options when he was drinking and I wasn't?! Incidentally, there
were 18 months before my pregnancy when I was TTC and therefore hardly
drinking, which may be another reason why I wasn't inclined to abstain for
2+ years of breastfeeding as well.)

Sidheag
DS Colin Oct 27 2003



  #17  
Old October 12th 05, 04:18 PM
Cuddlefish
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Default Unusually Sleepy Baby

Anne Rogers wrote:
did he have jabs? 2 months is the first lot here and sleeping for a long
time afterwards isn't unusual

you are now making me wonder, I posted a couple of days ago about Ada being
sleepy, we also had a thanksgiving meal (no we are not in canada, nor
canadian), but I didn't drink.

Anne


Jabs? No, I have no idea about that sort of thng! Maybe it is time to
make a doctor appointment for this... hmmmm

Jacqueline
  #18  
Old October 12th 05, 04:22 PM
Cuddlefish
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Default Unusually Sleepy Baby

Cocoamum wrote:

Cuddlefish wrote:

So as you know, it was Thanksgiving long weekend here in Canada. On
Sunday I had a turkey dinner, and yesterday I had two turkey buns from
the leftovers. I drank alcohol too, but no more than what I drink
typically with meals. DS [2 months] is exclusively breastfed.



"...no more than what I drink typically with meals"

We'll freze the picture a moment.....

Do you regularly drink with meals?

I know that the amount of alcohol the baby gets is very little, but
every day?

I must admit I'm shocked.

Tine, Denmark, where there is a very liberal attitude to alcohol, but
where nursing mothers don't drink regularly and get away with it.


*shrug*

Yes, I drink alcohol. I would have on average maybe 3 glasses of wine a
week, with a meal. There are some meals I have where I consume water
instead...

Jacqueline
  #19  
Old October 12th 05, 04:29 PM
Anne Rogers
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Default Unusually Sleepy Baby

Jabs? No, I have no idea about that sort of thng! Maybe it is time to make
a doctor appointment for this... hmmmm


I've no idea about what the system is in other places, but we get automatic
notifications through the post, plus reminders if we don't go. As far as I
know the vaccination schedule is quite similar across the western world
beinging with a series of 3 jabs and 2,3,4 months protecting against
Diptheria, Tetanus, Pertusiss, Menigitis C and a few more...

Anne


  #20  
Old October 12th 05, 04:38 PM
Anne Rogers
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Posts: n/a
Default Unusually Sleepy Baby


I think you'll find that those studies showed that "moderate drinking"
caused bad effects, and that "moderate drinking" was defined as something
like 2 units per day, every day. At least, that was what the respectable
studies I found when I looked into it said; that was a few years ago now.
Of course I'm not dismissing the idea that there might be effects to be
discovered at lower levels than that, maybe that apply to only some people
(so that they are difficult to find epidemiologically). How much did you
drink in your first pregnancy?


not all that much, definitely not what was described above as moderate, but
I did have 3 sessions where I drank 3ish units, possibly more, a few days
before I found out I was pregnant, it happens that both my husband I my
birthdays and matriculation dinner were then, and though we had been TTC
that cycle I had forgotten about it! I would have drunk 1 drink a couple of
times a week from then on, but I had 2 on a small number of occasions as
well.
"I don't worry about waiting a certain amount of time after one beer.
But I do notice that my milk supply "peaks" from drinking a beer about 6
hours after the fact, long after the alcohol has completely fled my
system...if I only drink one or two "servings" of alcohol."


true, I'd forgotten it wouldn't be the alcohol in the beer that causes that,
but it does give pause for thought, without knowing the exact biochemistry
of how alchohol affects the body over time it would be difficult to say for
sure, is the hour per unit a half life, or to completely clear?


Lol, I don't think the evidence of red wine being beneficial is really
strong enough to make it wise for someone who doesn't enjoy it to drink it
for their health, but if your husband enjoys a glass of red wine, yes
maybe
having a wine box around would be a good idea! Or, particularly if what he
actually likes is two glasses, getting a Vacuvin and using bottles might
be
a good alternative. A bottle of wine can easily keep three or four days if
you remember to vacuvin the bottle as soon as you've poured what you want.
In our experience if you drink the bottle just one glass at a time, it
doesn't quite keep in good condition to the bottom of the bottle,
unfortunately. Maybe those wine keepers that use nitrogen would do better?
The trouble with a wine box if there's only one person drinking it is that
it's a long time to drink the same wine. (Can you tell DH experimented
with
various options when he was drinking and I wasn't?! Incidentally, there
were 18 months before my pregnancy when I was TTC and therefore hardly
drinking, which may be another reason why I wasn't inclined to abstain for
2+ years of breastfeeding as well.)


thanks for the ideas, we don't have anything wine saver like, which is a
reason we don't buy bottles, we only get a bottle if I cook with it and then
we drink some over 2 days.

Anne


 




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