HELP! 9mo doesn't like formula (crossposted slightly)

Rosalie B. wrote:

x-no-archive:yes
Sorry, attributions garbled:

Are you aware of how little instruction MDs get in school with regard to
breastfeeding?


Whether MDs get or do not get instruction in school in re bf doesn't
really come into the equation. There's a whole lot of stuff that they
don't get in med school including nutrition. Some doctors (the good
ones) keep educating themselves after med school.

And very very many do NOT. It certainly IS important how much info MD's
have wrt bfding if they are going to council women to give it up on the
slightest reason. I've been told to wean just IN CASE I had to take
incompatible meds. Women who don't wish to wean need to be able to ask
eslewhere (pharmacists, Hales lookups) to find accurate information when
they need it. Telling women to wean because they are taking amoxillan
is stupid, but mkb has seen it over and over.




Perhaps we tend to think that a lot of people don't understand how
breastfeeding works because we see endless examples of people - even medical
professionals - dispensing advice that is totally wrong.


I'm NOT saying that bf moms should not take responsibility for
verifying what the doctors say - in fact unless I've been going to
some particular physician for enough time to have faith in his
judgement (mostly because he's explained stuff to me in a way that
makes sense) I rarely take what the doctor says as gospel.

So wtf? All that has been said is that it's not always the optimal
course of action to follow the prescribing dr's advice wrt drug safety
during lactation, and consulting other more relevent and up to date
sources, including Hales, decent pharmacists, etc, might be a better
plan of action.


The thing is - no one is attacking you. You attacked someone who
stated that it wasn't a good idea to disregard instructions not to bf
when taking medications, and I at least reacted to that scorn from
you.

Disregarding poor medical advice is ALWAYS a good idea. you say so
yourself.


By saying 'truly incompatible' you were at the very least
disrespecting the experience of moms who have had to take medication
that IS incompatible with bf.

BS. There are fewer meds truly incompatible with nursing than the
average MD seems to think. And there seems to be a great deal of
reluctance for the MD's to actually FIND OUT when they are prescribing
if the drug is truly contraindicated for lactating women.



_Medications and Mothers' Milk_ by Thomas Hale, Ph.D., currently in its
tenth edition. If you want more information about Dr. Hale, see his website
at http://neonatal.ttuhsc.edu/lact/.


I am really not interested as not only are my own children grown, but
all of their children are past bf age.

Well, maybe a graceful bow OUT of this topic would be called for about
now, then, eh??? You don't WANT to find out that the person you're
calling down about this might be refering to an accurate and
well-respected source? Why not?

You weren't questioned about
any specific medication in this case, so your recommendations of Hale
are not appropriate or necessary,

What? WHyever not? Women who may be prescribed medications and who are
wanting to continue to nurse their infants/children without unnecessary
interruptions should know that there is a source available to confirm
various drug compatibilty with bfding. From there, using the L1-L4
designations, they can decide for themselves, or in consult with their
drs, what they want to do.

nor was your reaction to those
people who said that some medications are contra-indicated for bf. I
am presuming that there ARE indeed some medications which are indeed a
bad idea?

FEWER than most woman are told, and bfding relatinoships are ended
needlessly because of this inaccureate information.

Dawn

x-no-archive:yes
Dawn Lawson wrote:

The original thread that I saw had only two paragraphs to it and
medication use was not addressed in either paragraph. It was posted
to Newsgroups:
misc.kids.breastfeeding,misc.kids,alt.parenting.so lutions,alt.support.breastfeeding,misc.kids.health

All I had was:

ryanding wrote:
My 9-month-old daughter does not like any infant formula. The more we
try, the harder she cries.

This started when she was 5 month when started to stop breast feeding.


I don't know what there was in the post originally, but given that
fragment, there is no reason to even bring up medications taken while
bf. As I scanned the thread I saw the bf nazis coming in and
castigating the OP for stopping bf and telling her that she can/should
start up again.

While I agree that bf is best and that there are a lot of bogus
reasons given for stopping, I don't agree that one should require
someone to justify their decisions to you or other folks on the
internet. There is a fine line between giving helpful advice and
harassing someone.

And harassing folks whose children are grown when they try to help out
the OP by giving possible solutions (and I'm not talking about myself
BTW) goes over the line of what is appropriate and helpful EVEN IF it
the advice posted is true.

Rosalie B. wrote:

x-no-archive:yes
Sorry, attributions garbled:

Are you aware of how little instruction MDs get in school with regard to
breastfeeding?


Whether MDs get or do not get instruction in school in re bf doesn't
really come into the equation. There's a whole lot of stuff that they
don't get in med school including nutrition. Some doctors (the good
ones) keep educating themselves after med school.

And very very many do NOT. It certainly IS important how much info MD's
have wrt bfding if they are going to council women to give it up on the
slightest reason. I've been told to wean just IN CASE I had to take
incompatible meds. Women who don't wish to wean need to be able to ask
eslewhere (pharmacists, Hales lookups) to find accurate information when
they need it. Telling women to wean because they are taking amoxillan
is stupid, but mkb has seen it over and over.




Perhaps we tend to think that a lot of people don't understand how
breastfeeding works because we see endless examples of people - even medical
professionals - dispensing advice that is totally wrong.


I'm NOT saying that bf moms should not take responsibility for
verifying what the doctors say - in fact unless I've been going to
some particular physician for enough time to have faith in his
judgement (mostly because he's explained stuff to me in a way that
makes sense) I rarely take what the doctor says as gospel.

So wtf? All that has been said is that it's not always the optimal
course of action to follow the prescribing dr's advice wrt drug safety
during lactation, and consulting other more relevent and up to date
sources, including Hales, decent pharmacists, etc, might be a better
plan of action.


The thing is - no one is attacking you. You attacked someone who
stated that it wasn't a good idea to disregard instructions not to bf
when taking medications, and I at least reacted to that scorn from
you.

Disregarding poor medical advice is ALWAYS a good idea. you say so
yourself.


By saying 'truly incompatible' you were at the very least
disrespecting the experience of moms who have had to take medication
that IS incompatible with bf.

BS. There are fewer meds truly incompatible with nursing than the
average MD seems to think. And there seems to be a great deal of
reluctance for the MD's to actually FIND OUT when they are prescribing
if the drug is truly contraindicated for lactating women.



_Medications and Mothers' Milk_ by Thomas Hale, Ph.D., currently in its
tenth edition. If you want more information about Dr. Hale, see his website
at http://neonatal.ttuhsc.edu/lact/.


I am really not interested as not only are my own children grown, but
all of their children are past bf age.

Well, maybe a graceful bow OUT of this topic would be called for about
now, then, eh??? You don't WANT to find out that the person you're
calling down about this might be refering to an accurate and
well-respected source? Why not?

You weren't questioned about
any specific medication in this case, so your recommendations of Hale
are not appropriate or necessary,

What? WHyever not? Women who may be prescribed medications and who are
wanting to continue to nurse their infants/children without unnecessary
interruptions should know that there is a source available to confirm
various drug compatibilty with bfding. From there, using the L1-L4
designations, they can decide for themselves, or in consult with their
drs, what they want to do.

nor was your reaction to those
people who said that some medications are contra-indicated for bf. I
am presuming that there ARE indeed some medications which are indeed a
bad idea?

FEWER than most woman are told, and bfding relatinoships are ended
needlessly because of this inaccureate information.

Dawn

grandma Rosalie

In article Tahmb.168521$pl3.102724@pd7tw3no, Dawn Lawson says...



Rosalie B. wrote:

x-no-archive:yes
Sorry, attributions garbled:

Are you aware of how little instruction MDs get in school with regard to
breastfeeding?


Whether MDs get or do not get instruction in school in re bf doesn't
really come into the equation. There's a whole lot of stuff that they
don't get in med school including nutrition. Some doctors (the good
ones) keep educating themselves after med school.

And very very many do NOT. It certainly IS important how much info MD's
have wrt bfding if they are going to council women to give it up on the
slightest reason. I've been told to wean just IN CASE I had to take
incompatible meds. Women who don't wish to wean need to be able to ask
eslewhere (pharmacists, Hales lookups) to find accurate information when
they need it. Telling women to wean because they are taking amoxillan
is stupid, but mkb has seen it over and over.




Perhaps we tend to think that a lot of people don't understand how
breastfeeding works because we see endless examples of people - even medical
professionals - dispensing advice that is totally wrong.


I'm NOT saying that bf moms should not take responsibility for
verifying what the doctors say - in fact unless I've been going to
some particular physician for enough time to have faith in his
judgement (mostly because he's explained stuff to me in a way that
makes sense) I rarely take what the doctor says as gospel.

So wtf? All that has been said is that it's not always the optimal
course of action to follow the prescribing dr's advice wrt drug safety
during lactation, and consulting other more relevent and up to date
sources, including Hales, decent pharmacists, etc, might be a better
plan of action.


How about *this* plan of action:

Instead of telling people to ignore medical advice, since you have *no*
credentials yourself, suggest that people take Hale's book as a cite, and
present that to their physician and pediatrician.

And consult AAP information as well.

Not only do you *not* have medical credentials, you do *not* have the
opportunity to examine anyone who comes to mkp, you do *not* have a way to
confirm exactly what medications people are taking just from what they tell you,
you do *not* have access to their medical history. For these reasons M.D.'s
with integrity are loathe to give medical advice on USENET. *You* should stay
even further from that line.

You (as in mkp 'you' as well as *you*) can make yourself a resource without
taking this current reprehensible path of calling for "Hale lookups" and telling
people that their physicians are ignorant.

So how about it - educate those physicians you think are so ignorant as well as
their patients, and get out of the business of passing along advice for
yourself.

Advise nursing mothers to take what information you can give them to their
personal medical professionals.

Banty

Rosalie B. wrote:
The original thread that I saw had only two paragraphs to it and
medication use was not addressed in either paragraph. It was posted
to Newsgroups:

misc.kids.breastfeeding,misc.kids,alt.parenting.so lutions,alt.support.breast
feeding,misc.kids.health

So? What does that have to do with thread drift?

I don't know what there was in the post originally, but given that
fragment, there is no reason to even bring up medications taken while
bf. As I scanned the thread I saw the bf nazis coming in and
castigating the OP for stopping bf and telling her that she can/should
start up again.

I NEVER said anything to the OP at all.


While I agree that bf is best and that there are a lot of bogus
reasons given for stopping, I don't agree that one should require
someone to justify their decisions to you or other folks on the
internet. There is a fine line between giving helpful advice and
harassing someone.


Where the HELL do you get "harassment" from me pointing out that even
medications that are known to be safe have warnings against use while BF?

I give up. You are not being rational. You're attributing words and
intentions to me that I never said or implied. I did not call anyone
"silly." I did not ask anyone to justify their actions. I do not tell
"strangers or acquaintances on the Internet" what to do, nor do I give
unasked-for advice. I did not "attack someone who
stated that it wasn't a good idea to disregard instructions not to bf when
taking medications." I did not disrespect anyone's experience. You say that
I did all those things when all I did was point out that you can't
necessarily go by the CYA labels plastered on medicine containers when
determining safety, and that most meds are at least potentially compatible
with BF. I don't know WHAT your problem with me is, but in the future, can
you please keep your attacks on me based on reality?

--
iphigenia
www.tristyn.net
"i have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
i do not think that they will sing to me."

In ,
Rosalie B. wrote:

*I don't know what there was in the post originally, but given that
*fragment, there is no reason to even bring up medications taken while
*bf. As I scanned the thread I saw the bf nazis coming in and
*castigating the OP for stopping bf and telling her that she can/should
*start up again.

I didn't see any breastfeeding nazis! I just saw concerned readers
wondering if the original poster had any chance of resuming the BF
relationship as a solution to her problem. Interesting how one's
perspective can color one's interpretation.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large

In article Tahmb.168521$pl3.102724@pd7tw3no,
Dawn Lawson wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote:


nor was your reaction to those
people who said that some medications are contra-indicated for bf. I
am presuming that there ARE indeed some medications which are indeed a
bad idea?

FEWER than most woman are told, and bfding relatinoships are ended
needlessly because of this inaccureate information.

Dawn


What interests me -- at least in part -- is that this debate started
when I responded to someone who said there is NEVER EVER ANY GOOD REASON
WHATSOEVER to switch from breast to bottle. Whether it is common or
not, it is true that there are drugs that a mother might have to take
that would make breastfeeding inappropriate -- so there ARE times when
it is necessary.

I'm sorry to hear that MD's may recommend it when it isn't necessary;
however, that does not change the fact that there are times when it flat
out IS necessary.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article ,
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

In ,
Rosalie B. wrote:

*I don't know what there was in the post originally, but given that
*fragment, there is no reason to even bring up medications taken while
*bf. As I scanned the thread I saw the bf nazis coming in and
*castigating the OP for stopping bf and telling her that she can/should
*start up again.

I didn't see any breastfeeding nazis! I just saw concerned readers
wondering if the original poster had any chance of resuming the BF
relationship as a solution to her problem. Interesting how one's
perspective can color one's interpretation.

Unless I'm mistaken, i think you filter out one of the people who
responded most offensively.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

Banty wrote:

Instead of telling people to ignore medical advice, since you have
*no* credentials yourself, suggest that people take Hale's book as a
cite, and present that to their physician and pediatrician.

Often as not, we DO.


And consult AAP information as well.


We DO.

Not only do you *not* have medical credentials, you do *not* have the
opportunity to examine anyone who comes to mkp,

This would be mkb, not mkp.


You (as in mkp 'you' as well as *you*) can make yourself a resource
without taking this current reprehensible path of calling for "Hale
lookups" and telling people that their physicians are ignorant.

Ah, so now you've decided we're acting reprehensibly, though you don't
actually read mkb and apparently have no familiarity with the typical med
discussions there. And we don't denigrate physicians as generally ignorant,
except, often, in the case of breastfeeding.


So how about it - educate those physicians you think are so ignorant
as well as their patients, and get out of the business of passing
along advice for yourself.

A lot of us *have* passed on editions to doctors, given people Hale's drug
entries to take to their doctors, take our copies with us to our own medical
appointments, etc. Whether or not people are willing to outright challenge
their doctors on the advice they've given is their own decision. Maybe the
"accept without discussion" attitude that people have toward doctors is part
of the reason the misinformation persists.

Maybe *you* could leave off judging us on actions with which you have no
familiarity.

--
iphigenia
www.tristyn.net
"i have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
i do not think that they will sing to me."

Banty wrote:



How about *this* plan of action:

Instead of telling people to ignore medical advice, since you have *no*
credentials yourself, suggest that people take Hale's book as a cite, and
present that to their physician and pediatrician.

OR, as iphegenia has been doing....offer the Hale's rating for the drug.
WHAT is the big deal????
Credentials aren't the be-all-end-all for recognising bad advice.

And consult AAP information as well.

Not only do you *not* have medical credentials, you do *not* have the
opportunity to examine anyone who comes to mkp, you do *not* have a way to
confirm exactly what medications people are taking just from what they tell you,

PFt. Neither does a dr seeing a patient in the office, in an ordinary
visit. I've worked in a pharmacy and can tell you that drs do NOT konw
what people are taking, and further, will rx dangerous combinations,
sometimes even KNOWING the meds a person is on. BEing an MD doesn't
make you infalliable or omnicient. (surprise!)

you do *not* have access to their medical history. For these reasons M.D.'s
with integrity are loathe to give medical advice on USENET. *You* should stay
even further from that line.

Giving the Hale's rating of a drug is hardly giving medical advice.
Being an MD doesn't guarantee never giving bad advice, as we've seen
over and over again.

You (as in mkp 'you' as well as *you*) can make yourself a resource without
taking this current reprehensible path of calling for "Hale lookups" and telling
people that their physicians are ignorant.

YOU, as in you, are very very very defensive. WHy is it reprehensible
to look up a drug in a reference book that MD's use/should use? Using
reference books isn't limited to those with degrees, or restricted to
MD's. Nver mind the internet, either. I can go into the university
library and learn from exactly the same textbooks the med students and
interns are reading.

Welcome to usenet, where people can call anyone ignorant if they so
chose. BTW, many physicians ARE ignorant of bfding both in terms of
advising on bfding itself, and apparently from what we keep seeing, on
what drugs are safe to take while lactating (and how to deal with those
that aren't)

So how about it - educate those physicians you think are so ignorant as well as
their patients, and get out of the business of passing along advice for
yourself.

Nah. There's no way I can educate ignorant physicians across the world,
but I CAN point out that they may not be the best source of advice wrt
breastfeeding, including drug compatibility for same. Repeated
situations where mothers have been advised to stop nursing for very very
unnecessary reasons suggest it's pretty darn important for SOMEone to
speak up.

Bfding advice is what mkb is all about. Stop crossposting if you find
it offensive that people would advise on what they know, and would offer
information on drugs. ANYone can buy a copy of Hale's book, fercrissake.

Advise nursing mothers to take what information you can give them to their
personal medical professionals.


Done. What's the big deal?

Do you as, apparently, a dr. feel that you have a great deal of
knowledge about breastfeeding and that you are always using uptodate and
accurate sources for advising women what drugs are safe to use? Would
you feel ok about telling a woman to stop nursing for a 7 day or 10 day
course of amoxillan, even if that could jeopardise her nursing
relationship with her child? What about telling a woman to pump and
dump needlessly while using codeine? THat's the kind of stuff mkb sees
probably weekly.

Dawn, recalling now just how flippin' toxic mk is

In article , iphigenia says...

Banty wrote:

Instead of telling people to ignore medical advice, since you have
*no* credentials yourself, suggest that people take Hale's book as a
cite, and present that to their physician and pediatrician.

Often as not, we DO.

"Often as not"??!?

You should *always*. You don't have credentials, or opportunity to examine or
confirm medications or know the medical history *ever* - not the 'often', not
the 'as not'. So you should *always* refrain from giving the medical advice
yourself.



And consult AAP information as well.


We DO.

And WHICH do you follow if the advice conflicts?


Not only do you *not* have medical credentials, you do *not* have the
opportunity to examine anyone who comes to mkp,

This would be mkb, not mkp.

OK, mkb mkb.



You (as in mkp 'you' as well as *you*) can make yourself a resource
without taking this current reprehensible path of calling for "Hale
lookups" and telling people that their physicians are ignorant.

Ah, so now you've decided we're acting reprehensibly, though you don't
actually read mkb and apparently have no familiarity with the typical med
discussions there. And we don't denigrate physicians as generally ignorant,
except, often, in the case of breastfeeding.

"Except....case of breastfeeding"?? What do think I'm talking about??
Appendectomies??

I'm *talking* about a newsgroup about bf dismissing medical advice concerning
bf!

I do read mkb, and I *do* see too much willingness to override what a physician
has told a mother, and too much dismissal of professional medical advice. If
you think she's getting too conservative advice - OK fine, do your good deed -
but tell her to take the references back to her physician. Don't tell her to
ignore medical advice (or warnings on labels either!) on the basis of what some
lay people who inhabit a USENET ng think! And that's who you are on mkb.



So how about it - educate those physicians you think are so ignorant
as well as their patients, and get out of the business of passing
along advice for yourself.

A lot of us *have* passed on editions to doctors, given people Hale's drug
entries to take to their doctors, take our copies with us to our own medical
appointments, etc. Whether or not people are willing to outright challenge
their doctors on the advice they've given is their own decision. Maybe the
"accept without discussion" attitude that people have toward doctors is part
of the reason the misinformation persists.

That should be the SOP. Not "a lot of us *have*".

Give the information, and advise a reader to take the info back to her doc. Who
has examined the reader. Who knows the reader's medical history. Who knows
*for sure* what the Rx is. Who isn't going from what she recalls when she posts
on USENET.

Banty