A disconnect at camp

In article , Nan says...

On 10 Aug 2006 10:47:09 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


IF the child feels comfortable speaking to the counselor. IF the
counselor gives a fl***g f***, as opposed to being some teenager who
really just wants to get through the summer the easiest way and collect
his tips at the end. IF its not the counselor who is the problem. IF
the situation is not one that needs immediate attention.

But I'm glad to see that you admit that reporting a problem to mom and
dad is a viable option. The cell phone is simply a faster means that a
letter that's going to take several days to reach the parents. And
honestly, Banty, no one expects the kid to call while an incident is
occurring. They would call in a private moment, later on.

IME, there was always a phone available in the camp office, or a pay
phone outside. We were able to use it if we needed to. Nobody was
prevented from using it, if they felt it was necessary. Believe it or
not, we were able to communicate problems to our parents before cell
phones were invented!


Exactly. The only advantage to a cell phone is immediacy. And it's the
perceived need for immediacy that I question.

Banty


--

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222154.stm

Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 10:47:09 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


IF the child feels comfortable speaking to the counselor. IF the
counselor gives a fl***g f***, as opposed to being some teenager who
really just wants to get through the summer the easiest way and collect
his tips at the end. IF its not the counselor who is the problem. IF
the situation is not one that needs immediate attention.

But I'm glad to see that you admit that reporting a problem to mom and
dad is a viable option. The cell phone is simply a faster means that a
letter that's going to take several days to reach the parents. And
honestly, Banty, no one expects the kid to call while an incident is
occurring. They would call in a private moment, later on.

IME, there was always a phone available in the camp office, or a pay
phone outside. We were able to use it if we needed to. Nobody was
prevented from using it, if they felt it was necessary. Believe it or
not, we were able to communicate problems to our parents before cell
phones were invented!

But Nan, the argument began with the statement that kids should NOT be
able to call their parents at will while at summer camp. *We need to
cut that cord* the battlecry went. Ergo, no cell phone. If kids are
able to call home at will using a landline, how could it *possibly*
change the entire nature of the experience to permit them to use a cell
phone for the same purpose? You can't have it both ways.

Moreover, payphones are not as available today as they were even 5
years ago. I would never count on one being available if I needed it.

Barbara

On 10 Aug 2006 12:02:00 -0700, Barbara wrote:

Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 10:47:09 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


IF the child feels comfortable speaking to the counselor. IF the
counselor gives a fl***g f***, as opposed to being some teenager who
really just wants to get through the summer the easiest way and collect
his tips at the end. IF its not the counselor who is the problem. IF
the situation is not one that needs immediate attention.

But I'm glad to see that you admit that reporting a problem to mom and
dad is a viable option. The cell phone is simply a faster means that a
letter that's going to take several days to reach the parents. And
honestly, Banty, no one expects the kid to call while an incident is
occurring. They would call in a private moment, later on.

IME, there was always a phone available in the camp office, or a pay
phone outside. We were able to use it if we needed to. Nobody was
prevented from using it, if they felt it was necessary. Believe it or
not, we were able to communicate problems to our parents before cell
phones were invented!

But Nan, the argument began with the statement that kids should NOT be
able to call their parents at will while at summer camp. *We need to
cut that cord* the battlecry went. Ergo, no cell phone. If kids are
able to call home at will using a landline, how could it *possibly*
change the entire nature of the experience to permit them to use a cell
phone for the same purpose? You can't have it both ways.


Are you honestly asserting that, presuming a payphone is there,
that the child will have the same access and availability to
it as they would to a cell phone? Come on, be serious.


Moreover, payphones are not as available today as they were even 5
years ago. I would never count on one being available if I needed it.

It's a safe bet that if there isn't a payphone, then at least
there's an office phone for the staff. So unless you're going to
assert that the *entire* camp staff is going to actively prevent
a child from using the phone, when they truly need it, well,
that reasoning just won't fly.

- Rich


--
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
http://www/mulveyfamily.com/kids

the issue with this while what he did was wrong, and you reacted normaly,
the councelors just saw a homesick girl that for some reason wasn't joining
in. They are not trained to be psychologists. If you had explained this
right away I am sure you would have been allowed to call. If you had told
right away it would have saved you weeks of suffering. What did you trust
about the other kids that you did not trust about the councelors? Would you
have told them if they asked?
Tori
You want a real story? I'll give you one. When I was 16, I went on a
6 week school-sponsored trip abroad. In the first week, I was molested
by a tour guide (not one of our tour leaders). I spent the rest of the
summer upset, withdrawn, fearful and crying. The group leaders never
once asked me what was wrong; if they had, I would have told them.
Instead, they threatened me -- if you don't buck up, we'll send you
home alone, in shame; at the time, that seemed like an awful option. I
didn't feel comfortable telling the group leaders. Within 2 weeks,
virtually every kid in the group knew why I was so upset, but no one
told the leaders. I begged to call my parents, but the *rules* were no
calls. I wish I'd had a cell phone. it would have saved me weeks --
hell, years -- of pain.

Really, this is all about the Invisible Electronic Umbilical Chord, and
Momma-Bears and Papa-Bears pinning that Concerned Parent Merit Badge on
their
aprons and suits.

Do you *really* think that it advances your argument to belittle and
insult people who hold differing opinions? Or do you write in this
manner to disguise the fact that you lack a single logical argument in
favor of your position?

I think it may also be that Ubiquitous Cell Phone Culture, where every
"do you
want skirt steak or london broil tonight" or "well, look in your sock
drawer for
them - did you ask your dad where you left them" question HAS to be asked
and
answered IMMEDIATELY or Life Falls Apart.


I don't believe that cell phones are *necessary* for all kids who goes
to overnight camp. Indeed, there's probably a lot to be said for
cutting that cord. OTOH, I don't think that Lyn's position is out of
line, overprotective, or otherwise ridiculous. IIRC, her son is now
about 2 years old, so I don't think that overnight camp is imminent.
However, whomever said that when the time comes -- if it comes -- she
should seek out a camp that permits cell phones (and they do exist) is
correct; that's what I would do.

Naw, it's a silly position, no surprise from the author. Mamma Bear
Supreme.

Well, since I am the one espousing the position, I'll proudly bear the
name. And why wouldn't I want to be known as someone who looks out for
her child's best interests and tries to protect him?

I put these objections into the same category as the complaints from
speeding
drivers "but whattif I had my laboring wife about to have a baby". It's
unlikely, and silly anysay (pros should be transporting).

I've never heard a speeder say that. I have, however, heard people
lament today's safety devices while refusing to use them. *I'm a good
driver. I've never been in an accident. I never wore seatbelts when I
was a kid. There's no reason for my kid to be in a carseat* *Oh,
c'mon. No one wore bike helmets when we were kids* Ad infinitum.
Come to think of it, they're right. Most trips don't result in
accidents; its probably 1 in a million for any given car trip that a
baby will need the protection of a carseat. Same for bike helmets,
using power mowers. I don't see the cell phone as being any different.

The reason why cell phones are often banned is because it impacts the
camp
environment and atmosphere to have kids IMing and yammering at each other
across
the camp. As well as needing to cut that invisible umbilical chord for
some
little time - it's called growing up!

Since I grew up just fine without ever going to overnight camp, I
imagine that kids will grow up just fine with cell phones at camp. Its
simply not an unreasonable thing to have, if the camp allows it.

Although an *alternate* policy is "no cell phones visibie". That is, the
child
can have a cell for calling home in true emergencies, or after camp, or
in case
there is a need to shut down the camp early. So - they can carry the
cell, but
if it's out (and there's no accepted reason for it to be out; if it's
out, it's
assumed that it's out for use), it gets confiscated. No, not just for
the day.
That's what my son's daycamp, and his school district, has.

So, would a policy like that make folks feel more comfortable?

We've made a decision that for us, the risks of not having a phone at
school -- at a point when One is still taking the school bus -- or day
camp are minimal. He comes home at the end of the day and can report
any problems or incidents to us, or we can observe behavioral changes
and look into why they're occurring. Its different if the kid is away
for 8 weeks. It will also be different for me when One starts taking
public transit to and from school, and otherwise going places without
parental supervision.

What would be the advantage of allowing a child to have a phone, but
not letting him use it? It seems rather silly to me.

Barbara

On 10 Aug 2006 12:02:00 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 10:47:09 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


IF the child feels comfortable speaking to the counselor. IF the
counselor gives a fl***g f***, as opposed to being some teenager who
really just wants to get through the summer the easiest way and collect
his tips at the end. IF its not the counselor who is the problem. IF
the situation is not one that needs immediate attention.

But I'm glad to see that you admit that reporting a problem to mom and
dad is a viable option. The cell phone is simply a faster means that a
letter that's going to take several days to reach the parents. And
honestly, Banty, no one expects the kid to call while an incident is
occurring. They would call in a private moment, later on.

IME, there was always a phone available in the camp office, or a pay
phone outside. We were able to use it if we needed to. Nobody was
prevented from using it, if they felt it was necessary. Believe it or
not, we were able to communicate problems to our parents before cell
phones were invented!

But Nan, the argument began with the statement that kids should NOT be
able to call their parents at will while at summer camp. *We need to
cut that cord* the battlecry went. Ergo, no cell phone. If kids are
able to call home at will using a landline, how could it *possibly*
change the entire nature of the experience to permit them to use a cell
phone for the same purpose? You can't have it both ways.

But using a land line to report problems to your parents isn't "at
will". Sorry, but with the invention of new and better(?) ways to
communicate, the perceived 'need' for immediacy (thanks for the
phrase, Banty ;-) has been born. If we got along okay without it
before, then kids can get along without it now.

Moreover, payphones are not as available today as they were even 5
years ago. I would never count on one being available if I needed it.

Barbara

I will grant that payphones aren't as abundant as they used to be.
However, a camp would make sure a phone is available for staff, and
for the campers to contact their parents, if necessary.

Nan

Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 12:02:00 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 10:47:09 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


IF the child feels comfortable speaking to the counselor. IF the
counselor gives a fl***g f***, as opposed to being some teenager who
really just wants to get through the summer the easiest way and collect
his tips at the end. IF its not the counselor who is the problem. IF
the situation is not one that needs immediate attention.

But I'm glad to see that you admit that reporting a problem to mom and
dad is a viable option. The cell phone is simply a faster means that a
letter that's going to take several days to reach the parents. And
honestly, Banty, no one expects the kid to call while an incident is
occurring. They would call in a private moment, later on.

IME, there was always a phone available in the camp office, or a pay
phone outside. We were able to use it if we needed to. Nobody was
prevented from using it, if they felt it was necessary. Believe it or
not, we were able to communicate problems to our parents before cell
phones were invented!

But Nan, the argument began with the statement that kids should NOT be
able to call their parents at will while at summer camp. *We need to
cut that cord* the battlecry went. Ergo, no cell phone. If kids are
able to call home at will using a landline, how could it *possibly*
change the entire nature of the experience to permit them to use a cell
phone for the same purpose? You can't have it both ways.

But using a land line to report problems to your parents isn't "at
will". Sorry, but with the invention of new and better(?) ways to
communicate, the perceived 'need' for immediacy (thanks for the
phrase, Banty ;-) has been born. If we got along okay without it
before, then kids can get along without it now.

Moreover, payphones are not as available today as they were even 5
years ago. I would never count on one being available if I needed it.

Barbara

I will grant that payphones aren't as abundant as they used to be.
However, a camp would make sure a phone is available for staff, and
for the campers to contact their parents, if necessary.

Nan

Its really difficult to respond when everyone here keeps changing their
positions.

It started out as *anyone who would send a cell phone to camp with
their kids is a horrible parent intent upon keeping their kids too
close.*

Lyn's response -- sometimes bad things happen at camp and kids need to
contact their parents

Response -- Noooooooo. WE'VE been to camp, and nothing awful never
happens there.

My response -- sure it does. Here's some examples.

Response -- well, of COURSE those things can happen, and kids can go to
their counselors or write

My response -- maybe not. Here are some examples.

[Alternate response -- well, a *good* parent would screen for those
things, and that would *never* happen. My response -- you can try, but
don't expect to always succeed.]

Response -- well, OF COURSE there may be situations such as that. They
can CALL! its perfectly reasonable and responsible parenting to expect
that your child will be able to use PAY phone if there's an emergency.
But if a parent provides a CELL phone for that same emergency, well,
then, that parent is a terrible parent, deserving of insults of the
type that are practically Banty's trademark.

Sorry, I don't buy it. If there are times when a TELEPHONE is needed
for emergencies, then it is not inherently unreasonable for parents to
provide a CELL PHONE for those emergencies. (And surely you know that
you can disable text messaging, and even program certain phones to only
call certain emergency numbers.)

Barbara

In article .com, Barbara
says...

Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 12:02:00 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 10:47:09 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


IF the child feels comfortable speaking to the counselor. IF the
counselor gives a fl***g f***, as opposed to being some teenager who
really just wants to get through the summer the easiest way and collect
his tips at the end. IF its not the counselor who is the problem. IF
the situation is not one that needs immediate attention.

But I'm glad to see that you admit that reporting a problem to mom and
dad is a viable option. The cell phone is simply a faster means that a
letter that's going to take several days to reach the parents. And
honestly, Banty, no one expects the kid to call while an incident is
occurring. They would call in a private moment, later on.

IME, there was always a phone available in the camp office, or a pay
phone outside. We were able to use it if we needed to. Nobody was
prevented from using it, if they felt it was necessary. Believe it or
not, we were able to communicate problems to our parents before cell
phones were invented!

But Nan, the argument began with the statement that kids should NOT be
able to call their parents at will while at summer camp. *We need to
cut that cord* the battlecry went. Ergo, no cell phone. If kids are
able to call home at will using a landline, how could it *possibly*
change the entire nature of the experience to permit them to use a cell
phone for the same purpose? You can't have it both ways.

But using a land line to report problems to your parents isn't "at
will". Sorry, but with the invention of new and better(?) ways to
communicate, the perceived 'need' for immediacy (thanks for the
phrase, Banty ;-) has been born. If we got along okay without it
before, then kids can get along without it now.

Moreover, payphones are not as available today as they were even 5
years ago. I would never count on one being available if I needed it.

Barbara

I will grant that payphones aren't as abundant as they used to be.
However, a camp would make sure a phone is available for staff, and
for the campers to contact their parents, if necessary.

Nan

Its really difficult to respond when everyone here keeps changing their
positions.

It started out as *anyone who would send a cell phone to camp with
their kids is a horrible parent intent upon keeping their kids too
close.*

Lyn's response -- sometimes bad things happen at camp and kids need to
contact their parents

Response -- Noooooooo. WE'VE been to camp, and nothing awful never
happens there.

My response -- sure it does. Here's some examples.

Response -- well, of COURSE those things can happen, and kids can go to
their counselors or write

My response -- maybe not. Here are some examples.

[Alternate response -- well, a *good* parent would screen for those
things, and that would *never* happen. My response -- you can try, but
don't expect to always succeed.]

Response -- well, OF COURSE there may be situations such as that. They
can CALL! its perfectly reasonable and responsible parenting to expect
that your child will be able to use PAY phone if there's an emergency.
But if a parent provides a CELL phone for that same emergency, well,
then, that parent is a terrible parent, deserving of insults of the
type that are practically Banty's trademark.

Sorry, I don't buy it. If there are times when a TELEPHONE is needed
for emergencies, then it is not inherently unreasonable for parents to
provide a CELL PHONE for those emergencies. (And surely you know that
you can disable text messaging, and even program certain phones to only
call certain emergency numbers.)

::boggle::

Truly, the only phones you know about are cellphones and payphones?

Banty (TM)


--

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222154.stm

"Barbara" wrote in message
oups.com...
Its really difficult to respond when everyone here keeps changing
their
positions.

I haven't given my position yet, but I am also in the "no cell phone"
camp. If there were no downsides, then I'd say, "Sure, let 'em have
'em." But there are. There is a discipline issue of kids using them
when they're not supposed to. There is the problem of parents or
friends calling the camper. There is the possibility of losing the
thing in the woods. There is the fact that many of the cabins/tents
the kids stay in have no electricity to charge the darn things. There
is the "haves vs. have nots" dynamic set up.

Sure the camp might be able to work with or around all these things,
but I don't blame the camp if they don't want to. It wouldn't make me
suspicious that there were things going on that they didn't want
reported. Of course you and Lyn don't have to send your kid to camp
if you don't agree with their policies. I wouldn't want to send mine
to a camp where all parental contact was forbidden. But if there were
two similar camps and one allowed cell phones and the other didn't,
I'd send mine to the "no cell phones" camp.

Bizby

Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 12:02:00 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 10:47:09 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


IF the child feels comfortable speaking to the counselor. IF the
counselor gives a fl***g f***, as opposed to being some teenager who
really just wants to get through the summer the easiest way and collect
his tips at the end. IF its not the counselor who is the problem. IF
the situation is not one that needs immediate attention.

But I'm glad to see that you admit that reporting a problem to mom and
dad is a viable option. The cell phone is simply a faster means that a
letter that's going to take several days to reach the parents. And
honestly, Banty, no one expects the kid to call while an incident is
occurring. They would call in a private moment, later on.

IME, there was always a phone available in the camp office, or a pay
phone outside. We were able to use it if we needed to. Nobody was
prevented from using it, if they felt it was necessary. Believe it or
not, we were able to communicate problems to our parents before cell
phones were invented!

But Nan, the argument began with the statement that kids should NOT be
able to call their parents at will while at summer camp. *We need to
cut that cord* the battlecry went. Ergo, no cell phone. If kids are
able to call home at will using a landline, how could it *possibly*
change the entire nature of the experience to permit them to use a cell
phone for the same purpose? You can't have it both ways.

But using a land line to report problems to your parents isn't "at
will". Sorry, but with the invention of new and better(?) ways to
communicate, the perceived 'need' for immediacy (thanks for the
phrase, Banty ;-) has been born. If we got along okay without it
before, then kids can get along without it now.

Moreover, payphones are not as available today as they were even 5
years ago. I would never count on one being available if I needed it.

Barbara

I will grant that payphones aren't as abundant as they used to be.
However, a camp would make sure a phone is available for staff, and
for the campers to contact their parents, if necessary.

Nan

Our G/S camp in town no longer has a payphone.

But on another topic entirely, when was the last time you *saw* a
payphone in an urban environment? For me, it was '92 (Boston's
Chinatown/Combat Zone)....haven't seen one of those things in years.

Caledonia

Banty wrote:
In article .com, Barbara
says...

Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 12:02:00 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 10:47:09 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


IF the child feels comfortable speaking to the counselor. IF the
counselor gives a fl***g f***, as opposed to being some teenager who
really just wants to get through the summer the easiest way and collect
his tips at the end. IF its not the counselor who is the problem. IF
the situation is not one that needs immediate attention.

But I'm glad to see that you admit that reporting a problem to mom and
dad is a viable option. The cell phone is simply a faster means that a
letter that's going to take several days to reach the parents. And
honestly, Banty, no one expects the kid to call while an incident is
occurring. They would call in a private moment, later on.

IME, there was always a phone available in the camp office, or a pay
phone outside. We were able to use it if we needed to. Nobody was
prevented from using it, if they felt it was necessary. Believe it or
not, we were able to communicate problems to our parents before cell
phones were invented!

But Nan, the argument began with the statement that kids should NOT be
able to call their parents at will while at summer camp. *We need to
cut that cord* the battlecry went. Ergo, no cell phone. If kids are
able to call home at will using a landline, how could it *possibly*
change the entire nature of the experience to permit them to use a cell
phone for the same purpose? You can't have it both ways.

But using a land line to report problems to your parents isn't "at
will". Sorry, but with the invention of new and better(?) ways to
communicate, the perceived 'need' for immediacy (thanks for the
phrase, Banty ;-) has been born. If we got along okay without it
before, then kids can get along without it now.

Moreover, payphones are not as available today as they were even 5
years ago. I would never count on one being available if I needed it.

Barbara

I will grant that payphones aren't as abundant as they used to be.
However, a camp would make sure a phone is available for staff, and
for the campers to contact their parents, if necessary.

Nan

Its really difficult to respond when everyone here keeps changing their
positions.

It started out as *anyone who would send a cell phone to camp with
their kids is a horrible parent intent upon keeping their kids too
close.*

Lyn's response -- sometimes bad things happen at camp and kids need to
contact their parents

Response -- Noooooooo. WE'VE been to camp, and nothing awful never
happens there.

My response -- sure it does. Here's some examples.

Response -- well, of COURSE those things can happen, and kids can go to
their counselors or write

My response -- maybe not. Here are some examples.

[Alternate response -- well, a *good* parent would screen for those
things, and that would *never* happen. My response -- you can try, but
don't expect to always succeed.]

Response -- well, OF COURSE there may be situations such as that. They
can CALL! its perfectly reasonable and responsible parenting to expect
that your child will be able to use PAY phone if there's an emergency.
But if a parent provides a CELL phone for that same emergency, well,
then, that parent is a terrible parent, deserving of insults of the
type that are practically Banty's trademark.

Sorry, I don't buy it. If there are times when a TELEPHONE is needed
for emergencies, then it is not inherently unreasonable for parents to
provide a CELL PHONE for those emergencies. (And surely you know that
you can disable text messaging, and even program certain phones to only
call certain emergency numbers.)

::boggle::

Truly, the only phones you know about are cellphones and payphones?

Banty (TM)

BOGGLE is right! How about a substantive response to my points?

Barbara