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#11
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Jeff wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... Some facts: 1) Mainstream publications in the USA have not published speculations that Thimerosal may be damaging. Mainstream publications in the USA have repeatedly published stories that Thimerosal is NOT damaging. This is like mainstream publications repeatedly publishing "xy killer not guilty", without having published a single story about "xy killer charged". This is absured behavior, and can only be planted. Incorrect. The reason why the mainstream publications repeatedly publish that vaccines don't cause autism is because the fact is that vaccines don't It's also a fact that someone _speculated_ that toxic levels of mercury in vaccines may be causing autism. That speculation was very valid science; all good science starts out of such speculations. Why wasn't that speculation newsworthy? Why are the (false) refutations newsworthy, then? Why is it never newsworthy when the refutations turn out to be crooked? Why so many refutations? Why wasn't one enough? cause autism. In this case, the truth wins out. Jeffie boy, truth does win out, and bad boys do get taken care of in the end. You don't believe that now, but you will someday. Everything adds up. You will too. |
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wrote in message ups.com... Jeff wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Some facts: 1) Mainstream publications in the USA have not published speculations that Thimerosal may be damaging. Mainstream publications in the USA have repeatedly published stories that Thimerosal is NOT damaging. This is like mainstream publications repeatedly publishing "xy killer not guilty", without having published a single story about "xy killer charged". This is absured behavior, and can only be planted. Incorrect. The reason why the mainstream publications repeatedly publish that vaccines don't cause autism is because the fact is that vaccines don't It's also a fact that someone _speculated_ that toxic levels of mercury in vaccines may be causing autism. That speculation was very valid science; all good science starts out of such speculations. Just because good science starts out of such speculations, that doesn't mean that all such speculations bear fruit. In this case, there still is no evidence that vaccines or thimerasol causes autism. Why wasn't that speculation newsworthy? Is every speculation newsworthy? I don't think so. Why are the (false) refutations newsworthy, then? What false refuations? Why is it never newsworthy when the refutations turn out to be crooked? Why so many refutations? Why wasn't one enough? It has not been shown that the refutations are crooked. cause autism. In this case, the truth wins out. Jeffie boy, I see you are being condescending. How nice. The name is "Jeff." truth does win out, and bad boys do get taken care of in the end. You don't believe that now, but you will someday. Everything adds up. You will too. Nice comeback. Why don't you back your claims with evidence? I see you deleted that part of the post where I asked for evidence. All talk. No action. The best you could do is call me "Jeffie." Jeff |
#13
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Jeff wrote:
Nice comeback. Why don't you back your claims with evidence? I see you deleted that part of the post where I asked for evidence. Other threads. Do your own homework and googling. As for this thread, you said absolutely nothing useful about the incidence of autism in the Amish community (you simply made some unbacked assertions about mysterious "facts" that had nothing to do with Amish,) so I didn't think you'd want to point any fingers about substance and content... Even so, if you post relevent arguments in the relevant threads, I will take you seriously. For that matter, if you post any relevant facts about Amish in this thread, and why the correlation cannot hold, I will still take you seriously. (Repeating "it's a fact that there is no relation between Autism and mercury" dozens of times doesn't make it a fact in my book. I don't care if you repeat it 100 or 1000 times. It merely marks you out to me as a rather well-trained parrot. Not someone with an independent brain, able to think and reason.) |
#14
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"Jeff" wrote in message k.net... "Mark Probert" wrote in message ... Jeff wrote: "Ilena Rose" wrote in message ... The Vac Flack Machine, may repeat the same lies over and over again. That still doesn't make them true. True. But the facts are that vaccines have been shown to be safe and effective in many different studies. So while the Vac Flack Machine repeats the truth over and over again, that doesn't make what the Vac Flack Machine say true. Facts are make what the Vac Flack Machine says true. Excellent observation. Merely repeating, OR REPOSTING, the same thing over and over does not make it true, unless there are facts to support it. Thanks. But reposting the same thing over and over, even if there are facts to support it, doesn't make it true. The facts make it true or false. In the case of the autism being caused by vaccines, the facts disprove the hypothesis that autism is caused by vaccines. Jeff Some FACTS are ignored. http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm Thimerosal,New study reopens debate on vaccinations Published: Sep ,8,2004 16:21 PM By ### Special to The Wall Street Journal & Medicalnewstoday By Tara Parker-Pope The Wall Street Journal Just a few months after the nation's top medical adviser rejected a link between vaccines and autism, a mouse study has reignited the debate and raised new fears among parents considering vaccinations and flu shots for their kids. For years, a cadre of parents and physicians have contended that thimerosal, an ethyl-mercury compound that has been one of the most widely used vaccine preservatives, is partly responsible for an apparent rise in autism in recent decades. But broad population studies haven't supported the claim. In May, a major report from the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety Review Committee rejected a link between autism and vaccines. But today, a congressional committee will review a June study from Columbia University, which found that a preservative used in vaccines can cause autism-like symptoms in a specific strain of mice. The research raises questions about whether some people might be genetically vulnerable to the effects of thimerosal. The study also raises questions about a new push by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to add flu shots to the immunization schedule for school-age kids. The vast majority of flu shots given still contain the preservative. In the study, researchers administered thimerosal to four strains of young mice. Three of the mice strains were unaffected by thimerosal, but the fourth developed problems consistent with autism such as delayed growth, social withdrawal and brain abnormalities. The mice were known to have a genetic susceptibility to mercury. Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of autism-like damage in mice A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in the developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and Dawn Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health, Columbia University. Over the past 20 years, there has been a striking increase--at least ten-fold since 1985--in the number of children diagnosed with autism spectrum disorders. Genetic factors alone cannot account for this rise in prevalence. Researchers at the Mailman School, led by Dr. Mady Hornig, created an animal model to explore the relationship between thimerosal (ethylmercury) and autism, hypothesizing that the combination of genetic susceptibility and environmental exposure to mercury in childhood vaccines may cause neurotoxicity. Cumulative mercury burden through other sources, including in utero exposures to mercury in fish or vaccines, may also lead to damage in susceptible hosts. Timing and quantity of thimerosal dosing for the mouse model were developed using the U.S. immunization schedule for children, with doses calculated for mice based on 10th percentile weight of U.S. boys at age two, four, six, and twelve months. The researchers found the subset of autoimmune disease susceptible mice with thimerosal exposure to express many important aspects of the behavioral and neuropathologic features of autism spectrum disorders, including: Abnormal response to novel environments; Behavioral impoverishment (limited range of behaviors and decreased exploration of environment); Significant abnormalities in brain architecture, affecting areas subserving emotion and cognition; Increased brain size. These findings have relevance for identification of autism cases relating to environmental factors; design of treatment strategies; and development of rational immunization programs. The use of thimerosal in vaccines has been reduced over the past few years, although it is still present in some influenza vaccines. Identifying the connection between genetic susceptibility and an environmental trigger for autism--in this case thimerosal exposure--is important because it may promote discovery of effective interventions for and limit exposure in a specific population, stated the lead author Dr. Mady Hornig. Because the developing brain can be exposed to toxins that are long gone by the time symptoms appear, clues gathered in these animal models can then be evaluated through prospective human birth cohorts--providing a powerful to tool to dissect the interaction between genes and the environment over time. Citation source: Molecular Psychiatry 2004 Volume 9, advance on line publication doi:10.1038/sj.mp.4001529 For further information on this work, please contact Mady Hornig, MD, Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health, Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032, United States of America, phone: 212-342-9036; FAX: 949-824-1229; e-mail: ARTICLE: "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse strain-dependent" M Hornig, D Chian, W. I. Lipkin Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Mailman School of Public Health, Columbia University, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032 |
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Jeff wrote:
Nice comeback. Why don't you back your claims with evidence? I see you deleted that part of the post where I asked for evidence. Perhaps it is unfair to expect everybody to read all kinds of stuff, so I will just post a link: http://tinyurl.com/bkf6u I have not come across any single credible refutation of these claims, other than quacky stuff like "there is no scientific evidence whatsover..." which to me is typical PR usage of the word "science" to make unscientific claims. As to whether speculations are newsworthy -- all speculations are clearly not newsworthy. However, if a speculation is not newsworthy, its numerous refutations should be even less so. Just ask yourself: Where did you read about the Danish study? Where did you read about objections to it? Only someone extremely biased or incomptent will hold on to the opinion that a speculation and all its supporting evidence are not at all newsworthy, but all its refutations are. Anybody else with any reasoning abilities and integrity at all, will wonder about such a state of affairs. |
#16
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"LadyLollipop" wrote in message news:HTwKe.257921$xm3.251433@attbi_s21... (...) Some FACTS are ignored. No, thimerasol is no longer used in vaccines for mice. Jeff |
#17
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On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:05:06 +0000, Jeff wrote:
Please provide evidence that the Danish study is crooked. Jeff Simple. The Danish study counted autistics before and after 1992 when thimerosal was removed from the vaccines. When counting the numbers before 1992 the researchers counted only hospitalized patients. But from 1995 on, they counted everybody. Since only a small fraction of autistics requires hospitalization (I imagine they must be involved in seriously aggressive or self-destructive behavior) the result was that the number of autistics increased after withdrawal of thimerosal. A neat trick, isn't it? And there are more. See http://www.safeminds.org/research/do...Pediatrics.pdf The study has been done by Statens Serum Institut, a vaccine manufacturer. As it is not a disinterested party this crookery is not surprizing. When the researcher a) knows which result is desired by employer and b) wants to keep his job, then he does not even have to be told what to do. On top of that the employer is free not to publish a study it does not like. So, the result is predetermined. This is why no research done by a party interested in a specific outcome can ever be trusted. |
#18
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"mike" wrote in message news On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:05:06 +0000, Jeff wrote: Please provide evidence that the Danish study is crooked. Jeff Simple. The Danish study counted autistics before and after 1992 when thimerosal was removed from the vaccines. When counting the numbers before 1992 the researchers counted only hospitalized patients. But from 1995 on, they counted everybody. Since only a small fraction of autistics requires hospitalization (I imagine they must be involved in seriously aggressive or self-destructive behavior) the result was that the number of autistics increased after withdrawal of thimerosal. A neat trick, isn't it? And there are more. See http://www.safeminds.org/research/do...Pediatrics.pdf Interesting accusations. Have they backed them up? The study has been done by Statens Serum Institut, a vaccine manufacturer. As it is not a disinterested party this crookery is not surprizing. When the researcher a) knows which result is desired by employer and b) wants to keep his job, then he does not even have to be told what to do. On top of that the employer is free not to publish a study it does not like. So, the result is predetermined. This is why no research done by a party interested in a specific outcome can ever be trusted. And safe minds is not a disinterested party. |
#19
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wrote in message oups.com... Jeff wrote: Nice comeback. Why don't you back your claims with evidence? I see you deleted that part of the post where I asked for evidence. Perhaps it is unfair to expect everybody to read all kinds of stuff, so I will just post a link: http://tinyurl.com/bkf6u I have not come across any single credible refutation of these claims, other than quacky stuff like "there is no scientific evidence whatsover..." which to me is typical PR usage of the word "science" to make unscientific claims. As to whether speculations are newsworthy -- all speculations are clearly not newsworthy. However, if a speculation is not newsworthy, its numerous refutations should be even less so. Just ask yourself: Where did you read about the Danish study? The journal Pediatrics. Where did you read about objections to it? I read objections to the study in sites by people who are against the use of vaccines or against the use of mercury in vaccines. Hardly disinterested parties. Only someone extremely biased or incomptent will hold on to the opinion that a speculation and all its supporting evidence are not at all newsworthy, but all its refutations are. It depends on the evidence. Anybody else with any reasoning abilities and integrity at all, will wonder about such a state of affairs. Sad, isn't it? People who have disabled kids wasting their time looking for a cause that isn't there. Jeff |
#20
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"Jeff" wrote in message nk.net... "LadyLollipop" wrote in message news:HTwKe.257921$xm3.251433@attbi_s21... (...) Some FACTS are ignored. No, thimerasol is no longer used in vaccines for mice. Jeff Point made!!! http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm Thimerosal,New study reopens debate on vaccinations Published: Sep ,8,2004 16:21 PM By ### Special to The Wall Street Journal & Medicalnewstoday By Tara Parker-Pope The Wall Street Journal Just a few months after the nation's top medical adviser rejected a link between vaccines and autism, a mouse study has reignited the debate and raised new fears among parents considering vaccinations and flu shots for their kids. For years, a cadre of parents and physicians have contended that thimerosal, an ethyl-mercury compound that has been one of the most widely used vaccine preservatives, is partly responsible for an apparent rise in autism in recent decades. But broad population studies haven't supported the claim. In May, a major report from the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety Review Committee rejected a link between autism and vaccines. But today, a congressional committee will review a June study from Columbia University, which found that a preservative used in vaccines can cause autism-like symptoms in a specific strain of mice. The research raises questions about whether some people might be genetically vulnerable to the effects of thimerosal. The study also raises questions about a new push by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to add flu shots to the immunization schedule for school-age kids. The vast majority of flu shots given still contain the preservative. In the study, researchers administered thimerosal to four strains of young mice. Three of the mice strains were unaffected by thimerosal, but the fourth developed problems consistent with autism such as delayed growth, social withdrawal and brain abnormalities. The mice were known to have a genetic susceptibility to mercury. Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of autism-like damage in mice A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in the developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and Dawn Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health, Columbia University. Over the past 20 years, there has been a striking increase--at least ten-fold since 1985--in the number of children diagnosed with autism spectrum disorders. Genetic factors alone cannot account for this rise in prevalence. Researchers at the Mailman School, led by Dr. Mady Hornig, created an animal model to explore the relationship between thimerosal (ethylmercury) and autism, hypothesizing that the combination of genetic susceptibility and environmental exposure to mercury in childhood vaccines may cause neurotoxicity. Cumulative mercury burden through other sources, including in utero exposures to mercury in fish or vaccines, may also lead to damage in susceptible hosts. Timing and quantity of thimerosal dosing for the mouse model were developed using the U.S. immunization schedule for children, with doses calculated for mice based on 10th percentile weight of U.S. boys at age two, four, six, and twelve months. The researchers found the subset of autoimmune disease susceptible mice with thimerosal exposure to express many important aspects of the behavioral and neuropathologic features of autism spectrum disorders, including: Abnormal response to novel environments; Behavioral impoverishment (limited range of behaviors and decreased exploration of environment); Significant abnormalities in brain architecture, affecting areas subserving emotion and cognition; Increased brain size. These findings have relevance for identification of autism cases relating to environmental factors; design of treatment strategies; and development of rational immunization programs. The use of thimerosal in vaccines has been reduced over the past few years, although it is still present in some influenza vaccines. Identifying the connection between genetic susceptibility and an environmental trigger for autism--in this case thimerosal exposure--is important because it may promote discovery of effective interventions for and limit exposure in a specific population, stated the lead author Dr. Mady Hornig. Because the developing brain can be exposed to toxins that are long gone by the time symptoms appear, clues gathered in these animal models can then be evaluated through prospective human birth cohorts--providing a powerful to tool to dissect the interaction between genes and the environment over time. Citation source: Molecular Psychiatry 2004 Volume 9, advance on line publication doi:10.1038/sj.mp.4001529 For further information on this work, please contact Mady Hornig, MD, Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health, Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032, United States of America, phone: 212-342-9036; FAX: 949-824-1229; e-mail: ARTICLE: "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse strain-dependent" M Hornig, D Chian, W. I. Lipkin Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Mailman School of Public Health, Columbia University, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032 |
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