Man walks into office and kills ex-girlfriend over child support

"John Larkin" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 16:49:12 GMT, "Gini" wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote
"Gini" wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote
......................
Do you feel that men can have sex with women and just abandon them and
the resulting children? Well, the law doesn't, so be careful. And
don't drive drunk, or rob banks, because that's illegal too.
==
Bad analogies. Very bad. These crimes are illegal for everyone. Only
NCPs
are mandated to
to spend a percentage of their income on their children. CPs aren't
required
to nor
are parents in intact families.


Child neglect is a crime.
==
No ****. That's the best you could come up with?


One counter-case is enough.
==
OK, I see you're confused here. Not much of a thinker are ya, John? Maybe
if you reread my post
a few times, you'll get it. Can't do much more than that for you. Hint: You
are correlating "percentage
of income" with "child neglect." Ah geez, forget it.

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wrote in message
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On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:56:31 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


"John Larkin"

wrote in message
news:k58r9314s5d0bpnn6tgndii8k5tm ...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:38:32 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


John, think about it. How would you feel in a
situation
like that. (And
please don't go all preachy on me and tell me how you
would *never* behave
in such a way as to create such a problem)


I have no idea. I wouldn't get into a situation like
that.

How did I know that you were going to say that. So,
John,
I would like a
bit of clarification from you. Do you feel that it is ok
for a woman to
conceal from a man the fact that he is a father until 12
years have passed,
then demand current child support plus 12 years of back
support? Do you
feel that she is doing right by the child to deny that
child a father for 12
years so she can build herself a nice nest egg?


I'd prefer she didn't, but then if she has fed, housed,
and
cared for
his kid for 12 years, don't you think he owes her
something? Even if
she collects $84K, that amounts to $7000 a year, about 80
cents an
hour, not to mention expenses like food and clothing and
medical.

I would say that when the woman can give the man HIS SHARE
of the hugs and kisses, the first steps and first sords,
the
firts day of schools, the "let's paly ball, Dad's" and
wrestling matches and dancing-on-Daddy's-feets, and all
the
other wonderful growing up memories that dad's and kids
share, then and only then should he pay her "child
support"
for all the years she stole from him and his child. If SHE
made the unilateral decision to be a single parent for 12
years (while keeping all the wonders of the child's
growing
and development for herself), she should be not only
willing, but obligated, to pay the price herself.

If you gave your friend a lawnmower, and he mowed your
lawn
for you for 5 years, but only did it while you were at
work,
and never told you he was doing it, would you be willing
to
fork over several thousand dollars when he demanded it at
the end of 5 years?

Sorry, but I see too many men who abuse their children or
spouses to totally agree with you. To make my point, if
you
gave your friend a lawnmower and he broke it while doing
your
lawn.... should YOU have to pay for it?

Oh, I see. Because some men abuse their children, all men
should be handed the sh*tty end of the stick?
** I'm not saying that. You were making a genaralization and
so was I. Each case is different.

That doesn't even begin to make sense, April.
Are you attempting to say that a woman who has a child
without
informing the man that she is pregnant, then demands 12
years
of back child support plus ongoing support has the RIGHT to
do
that. because some men have been abusive?
**Nope, wasn't attempting.

No proof necessary that this particular man might become
abusive--just the woman's unilateral decision? I've known
some mothers who have abused their children--does that mean
that it is ok with you that a father could take his child
and
run off with the child, and 12 years later demand 12 years
of
back child support?
** My Mother left my father with me when I was 2, After 30
years, I finally found my father. My mother told me lies all
my life. I WAS an abused child. Mentally, Physically and
Emotionally by her. My mother doesn't deserve anything. It
was
her choice to keep me away from my father all those years and
deprive me of having him in my formative years. ( doesn't
matter, come to find out I was always like him even when he
wasn't around lol) I'm just saying you were generalizing in
your post so I retorted doing the same. I don't totally
disagree with you but I don't totally agree either. There
are
exceptions.

But, unfortunately, the current CS law does not recognize
that.
It's "victim mommy" deserves the money becuase she raised the
child alone. I do not think that a mother who purposely keeps
a
child from the father deserves a flipping penny whe she
finally
proves paternity. IF she is doing because of abuse, she needs
to
PROVE it!! But the system doesn't care about anything except
the
almighty dollar. To heck with a child's need to have 2
parents--only money matters.



** Isn't that the way the world is with EVERYTHING? Sad I
know,
but it's the truth. Money is the most important thing to most
ppl anymore. Not values.. and certainly not morals.

So let's get this down to your personal opinion--not that it is
any more important than mine or any other individual's when it
comes to the child support system. Do you, personally, think
that
a woman should be able to have a child without informing the
father, raise that child for 12 years, then demand 12 years of
back child support and ongoing support? (Barring any sort of
abuse, of course) Do you think this is right?


**No I don't. As I said it was her choice to keep the father
away
from the child not his. Whay should he have to pay for her
choice?
Now, if the mother is prepared to allow the father visitation and
allow him to get to know his child. I think from that point on
out
he should pay child support. Hard to pay for something you didn't
even know you had.

Yes, that's my take on it also. Some places, however, still
charge
a man back to the birth of the child, no matter what. Other
places
have recognized the unfairness of using a man as a savings account
without his knowledge, and limit the amount of time they charge
for.
Some have refused to charge any arrearages at all in such
situations.

From your experience growing up without your father, I can see
that
you realize first hand how important it is for a child to have
his/
father in his/her life. I wish more people understood that money
will never replace a father. Nor can the hole in the father's
heart
be healed by telling him "but you get to pay for all the time you
missed."

** Well, I had to leave my son's father. He was very abusive to me
and was starting on our son. I could handle it, but you don't beat
on a 1 1/2 year old because he won't stop crying because he doesn't
want a nap. He had anxiety issues and was being medicated for about
a
month. Then he quit. He promised month after month to go back but
it
never happened. AFter 3 months State troppers knock on my door
because my husband was caught on surveillance cameras stealing over
1200.00 for his job.( he worked retail). I couldn't handle anymore.
I
gave him an easy choice. He could forego paying support by just
signing him totally over to me. He refused. He paid child
support.
He couldn't keep a job,and was constantly behind on his payments.
In
over 4 years, he never once tried to see his son yet would tell me
that the name is what's important ( mind you the child knows
nothing
about the family name since his father never saw him) and that he
still loves him. I never will understand my ex-husbands philosophy
on
all of this. But Alas, I have remarried and Next month we all go
downtown to swear in front of the judge that my husband is adopting
my son. his father finally.. (after 7 years) realizes that our son
is better off having a father who does things with him and takes
care
of him. So I guess my story DOES have a happy ending

I'm very glad to hear that a man who had no wish to be a father
stepped aside so that the man who wants to be the father is free to
raise your child with you. It's too bad it took the bio dad so long
to let go. If any child support arrearages have accrued, will you be
signing a letter of satisfaction saying that they are paid in full?

I wish you and your family the very best, April. It sounds like
things are working out well for all of you.
** to tell you the truth, he paid up all his back arrears and is also
paying ofor the adoption. Lawyer's idea and I agree... on one hand
he
could be paying the next 9 years of child support or the $1200.00 for
the adoption.. He opted for the latter.

Wait a second. You have a legal CS obligation too. How much have you
been required to pay all along? Why are you so willing to sell out
your
own CS obligation? Do you really think accepting $1200 lets you off
the
hook to support your child?

I don't quite understand what you are asking, Bob. April said her
child's bio father never wanted anything to do with the child, but
refused to sign away his rights. This last year, he said he would sign
away his rights and let April's husband, who has been raising the child
along with April, adopt him. He has agreed to pay the $1200 adoption
fee. Then he doesn't have to pay child support for 9 more years for a
child he has never even attempted to have a relationship with. April
has
been doing her part to support her son all along.

Well she has had a pretty sweet deal. She gets CS from the child's
father
(he paid all arrears, right?), has a current husband helping to support
her kid, and she doesn't even acknowledge she had any CS obligation of
her
own. Her comments have indicated three adults have been paying to
support
this kid, but I suspect the people supporting the kid are the two men.

I'm asking her how much she was ordered to pay and if she paid it. If
she
claims to have been providing her portion of support too then she has
one
really well taken care of kid. And the adoption will reduce the amount
of
support from three adults to two adults and make the kid worse off. I
suspect this is just another case where the CP mom is shuffling dollars
around and claiming she has been paying her share of CS with the money
she
has been getting from two different men.
** for your information, All of the money I have gotten from the
bio-father
has gone into a savings acct for him.

Yet it is supposed to be used to support the child; hence the term "child
support". I rest my case.

The money was for him and it will
remain so. I have worked upwards of 3 jobs at one time to take care of my
son on my own. I have paid ALL medical bills, ALL food bills, ALL
clothing.
70.00 a week doesn't cover **** when you have a chilld. hence why it all
went into a bank acct. Perhaps , you sir, should get your ****in facts
straight before you go off in directions you have NO comapss for.

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"John Larkin"
wrote in
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On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:56:31 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


"John Larkin"
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStech nologyPART.com wrote in
message
news:k58r9314s5d0bpnn6tgndii8 ...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:38:32 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


John, think about it. How would you feel in a
situation like that. (And
please don't go all preachy on me and tell me how you
would *never* behave
in such a way as to create such a problem)


I have no idea. I wouldn't get into a situation like
that.

How did I know that you were going to say that. So,
John, I would like a
bit of clarification from you. Do you feel that it is
ok for a woman to
conceal from a man the fact that he is a father until
12 years have passed,
then demand current child support plus 12 years of back
support? Do you
feel that she is doing right by the child to deny that
child a father for 12
years so she can build herself a nice nest egg?


I'd prefer she didn't, but then if she has fed, housed,
and cared for
his kid for 12 years, don't you think he owes her
something? Even if
she collects $84K, that amounts to $7000 a year, about
80 cents an
hour, not to mention expenses like food and clothing
and medical.

I would say that when the woman can give the man HIS
SHARE of the hugs and kisses, the first steps and first
sords, the firts day of schools, the "let's paly ball,
Dad's" and wrestling matches and
dancing-on-Daddy's-feets, and all the other wonderful
growing up memories that dad's and kids share, then and
only then should he pay her "child support" for all the
years she stole from him and his child. If SHE made the
unilateral decision to be a single parent for 12 years
(while keeping all the wonders of the child's growing
and development for herself), she should be not only
willing, but obligated, to pay the price herself.

If you gave your friend a lawnmower, and he mowed your
lawn for you for 5 years, but only did it while you were
at work, and never told you he was doing it, would you
be willing to fork over several thousand dollars when he
demanded it at the end of 5 years?

Sorry, but I see too many men who abuse their children or
spouses to totally agree with you. To make my point, if
you gave your friend a lawnmower and he broke it while
doing your lawn.... should YOU have to pay for it?

Oh, I see. Because some men abuse their children, all men
should be handed the sh*tty end of the stick?
** I'm not saying that. You were making a genaralization
and so was I. Each case is different.

That doesn't even begin to make sense, April.
Are you attempting to say that a woman who has a child
without informing the man that she is pregnant, then
demands 12 years of back child support plus ongoing
support has the RIGHT to do that. because some men have
been abusive?
**Nope, wasn't attempting.

No proof necessary that this particular man might become
abusive--just the woman's unilateral decision? I've known
some mothers who have abused their children--does that
mean that it is ok with you that a father could take his
child and run off with the child, and 12 years later
demand 12 years of back child support?
** My Mother left my father with me when I was 2, After 30
years, I finally found my father. My mother told me lies
all my life. I WAS an abused child. Mentally, Physically
and Emotionally by her. My mother doesn't deserve anything.
It was her choice to keep me away from my father all those
years and deprive me of having him in my formative years.
( doesn't matter, come to find out I was always like him
even when he wasn't around lol) I'm just saying you were
generalizing in your post so I retorted doing the same. I
don't totally disagree with you but I don't totally agree
either. There are exceptions.

But, unfortunately, the current CS law does not recognize
that. It's "victim mommy" deserves the money becuase she
raised the child alone. I do not think that a mother who
purposely keeps a child from the father deserves a flipping
penny whe she finally proves paternity. IF she is doing
because of abuse, she needs to PROVE it!! But the system
doesn't care about anything except the almighty dollar. To
heck with a child's need to have 2 parents--only money
matters.



** Isn't that the way the world is with EVERYTHING? Sad I
know, but it's the truth. Money is the most important thing
to most ppl anymore. Not values.. and certainly not morals.

So let's get this down to your personal opinion--not that it
is any more important than mine or any other individual's when
it comes to the child support system. Do you, personally,
think that a woman should be able to have a child without
informing the father, raise that child for 12 years, then
demand 12 years of back child support and ongoing support?
(Barring any sort of abuse, of course) Do you think this is
right?


**No I don't. As I said it was her choice to keep the father
away from the child not his. Whay should he have to pay for
her choice? Now, if the mother is prepared to allow the father
visitation and allow him to get to know his child. I think
from that point on out he should pay child support. Hard to pay
for something you didn't even know you had.

Yes, that's my take on it also. Some places, however, still
charge a man back to the birth of the child, no matter what.
Other places have recognized the unfairness of using a man as a
savings account without his knowledge, and limit the amount of
time they charge for. Some have refused to charge any arrearages
at all in such situations.

From your experience growing up without your father, I can see
that you realize first hand how important it is for a child to
have his/ father in his/her life. I wish more people understood
that money will never replace a father. Nor can the hole in the
father's heart be healed by telling him "but you get to pay for
all the time you missed."

** Well, I had to leave my son's father. He was very abusive to
me and was starting on our son. I could handle it, but you don't
beat on a 1 1/2 year old because he won't stop crying because he
doesn't want a nap. He had anxiety issues and was being medicated
for about a month. Then he quit. He promised month after month
to go back but it never happened. AFter 3 months State troppers
knock on my door because my husband was caught on surveillance
cameras stealing over 1200.00 for his job.( he worked retail). I
couldn't handle anymore. I gave him an easy choice. He could
forego paying support by just signing him totally over to me. He
refused. He paid child support. He couldn't keep a job,and was
constantly behind on his payments. In over 4 years, he never once
tried to see his son yet would tell me that the name is what's
important ( mind you the child knows nothing about the family
name since his father never saw him) and that he still loves him.
I never will understand my ex-husbands philosophy on all of this.
But Alas, I have remarried and Next month we all go downtown to
swear in front of the judge that my husband is adopting my son.
his father finally.. (after 7 years) realizes that our son is
better off having a father who does things with him and takes
care of him. So I guess my story DOES have a happy ending

I'm very glad to hear that a man who had no wish to be a father
stepped aside so that the man who wants to be the father is free
to raise your child with you. It's too bad it took the bio dad so
long to let go. If any child support arrearages have accrued, will
you be signing a letter of satisfaction saying that they are paid
in full?

I wish you and your family the very best, April. It sounds like
things are working out well for all of you.
** to tell you the truth, he paid up all his back arrears and is
also paying ofor the adoption. Lawyer's idea and I agree... on one
hand he could be paying the next 9 years of child support or the
$1200.00 for the adoption.. He opted for the latter.

Wait a second. You have a legal CS obligation too. How much have
you been required to pay all along? Why are you so willing to sell
out your own CS obligation? Do you really think accepting $1200
lets you off the hook to support your child?

I don't quite understand what you are asking, Bob. April said her
child's bio father never wanted anything to do with the child, but
refused to sign away his rights. This last year, he said he would
sign away his rights and let April's husband, who has been raising
the child along with April, adopt him. He has agreed to pay the
$1200 adoption fee. Then he doesn't have to pay child support for 9
more years for a child he has never even attempted to have a
relationship with. April has been doing her part to support her son
all along.

Well she has had a pretty sweet deal. She gets CS from the child's
father (he paid all arrears, right?), has a current husband helping to
support her kid, and she doesn't even acknowledge she had any CS
obligation of her own. Her comments have indicated three adults have
been paying to support this kid, but I suspect the people supporting
the kid are the two men.

I'm asking her how much she was ordered to pay and if she paid it. If
she claims to have been providing her portion of support too then she
has one really well taken care of kid. And the adoption will reduce
the amount of support from three adults to two adults and make the kid
worse off. I suspect this is just another case where the CP mom is
shuffling dollars around and claiming she has been paying her share of
CS with the money she has been getting from two different men.

Well, Bob, it at least sounds as if everyone is ending up
satisfied--the man who never wanted the child (just wanted the child to
have his name for a while) does not have to pay anything any more. The
child has a father who wants him enough to adopt him. And mom, dad,
and kid are a family unit. It's better than most of these cases work
out. I don't know when April married the new husband, or if she worked
outside the home.

Does this mean you are backing off on your prior conclusion that "April
has been doing her part to support her son all along"? I hope so. :-)

You know my point - When the money from CS received, support from
subsequent men in the mom's life, and whatever the mom actually
contributes gets mixed into a household budget there is no way to follow
the money. And the lack of accountability for how the CS dollars are
spent on the children is maddening when you know darn well it is being
used in ways far different than the nice, neat way the CS guidelines are
constructed and used to calculate required support.

Well, Bob, I know darn well you know how I feel about how CS is spent.
You know that the mother of my husband's oldest daughter uses the CS
money as household money, and the lot of the child has not been bettered
at all. But, in reading April's posts, I did not get the impression that
she went from abusive ex to new husband. And she did try to give her ex
an out, so he would not have to pay child support at all. I do think you
may be misreading her.

April is a verbal abuser (I'm sure you read her vulgar diatribes) claiming
her ex-husband is an abuser. I guess you have to have been married to one
of them to recognize the pattern. Erin Prizzy wrote about them as being
"emotional terrorists" intent on destroying men for their perceived
violations of women. What Prizzy found (and she was a women's battered
shelter advocate) was that certain women have an abnormal reaction to men
and concoct stories of abuse far beyond reality to place men in the worst
light. The intent is to take the spotlight off of their own abusive
characteristics and go after men with the intent of total destruction.
This woman fits Prizzy's theory and analysis.

Well, I do think she has used some vulgar language. But this thread is all
I know of her. I also know that you are very knowledgeable and helpful about
child support issues. So I think I'll just leave things as they are, since
I don't have any way of knowing beyond what I read here.

On Jul 18, 4:16 pm, timley screeched sexism:
On Jul 16, 10:51 am, "Chris" wrote:

"John Larkin" wrote in message

.. .

On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:19:35 -0700, "
wrote:

Yeah. You read that right. He drove all the way from Arizona to Ukiah
in California and shot the succubus in the head. And then he walked
next door to the courthouse and surrendered. You gotta hand it to
him. There's only so much abuse a man can take before reacting. And
this is the kind of man that pushes back, violently.

So he'll spend the rest of his life with another guy in a tiny
bunk-bed prison cell, instead of being out and economizing, or even
running away to Brazil and starting over there. That doesn't sound
like a sensible reaction to me.

It does to someone who believes in erasing wicked people.

John

HE SHOULD HAVE KEPT HIS DICK IN HIS PANTS!

You *do* understand that this is *exactly* the argument against ALL
female ONLY
post coital choices, eh ?

Thank you for so easily outing yourself as a man hating sexist bigot.

OR AT BEST IF HE DIDN'T WANT KIDS GET A VASECTOMY.

So, why didn't SHE get HER tubes tied ?

" Her body, her choice... HER *responsibility*. "

BUT NOW BECAUSE HE COULD NOT CONTROL HIS
NEEDS TO GET LAID, A WOMEN IS DEAD AND A CHILD IS PARENTLESS! YOU CALL
THIS A SENSIBLE REACTION? FREAK!

Massive Loon Projection

Andre

On Jul 19, 4:52 pm, "April" wrote:
"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message

...

"April" wrote in message
...
** Well, I had to leave my son's father. He was very abusive to me
and was starting on our son. I could handle it, but you don't beat
on a 1 1/2 year old because he won't stop crying because he doesn't
want a nap. He had anxiety issues and was being medicated for about a
month. Then he quit. He promised month after month to go back but it
never happened. AFter 3 months State troppers knock on my door
because my husband was caught on surveillance cameras stealing over
1200.00 for his job.( he worked retail). I couldn't handle anymore. I
gave him an easy choice. He could forego paying support by just
signing him totally over to me. He refused. He paid child support.
He couldn't keep a job,and was constantly behind on his payments. In
over 4 years, he never once tried to see his son yet would tell me
that the name is what's important ( mind you the child knows nothing
about the family name since his father never saw him) and that he
still loves him. I never will understand my ex-husbands philosophy on
all of this. But Alas, I have remarried and Next month we all go
downtown to swear in front of the judge that my husband is adopting
my son. his father finally.. (after 7 years) realizes that our son
is better off having a father who does things with him and takes care
of him. So I guess my story DOES have a happy ending

I'm very glad to hear that a man who had no wish to be a father
stepped aside so that the man who wants to be the father is free to
raise your child with you. It's too bad it took the bio dad so long
to let go. If any child support arrearages have accrued, will you be
signing a letter of satisfaction saying that they are paid in full?

I wish you and your family the very best, April. It sounds like
things are working out well for all of you.
** to tell you the truth, he paid up all his back arrears and is also
paying ofor the adoption. Lawyer's idea and I agree... on one hand he
could be paying the next 9 years of child support or the $1200.00 for
the adoption.. He opted for the latter.

Wait a second. You have a legal CS obligation too. How much have you
been required to pay all along? Why are you so willing to sell out your
own CS obligation? Do you really think accepting $1200 lets you off the
hook to support your child?
** afraid I'm not following what you are saying.

In the majority of states CS orders detail the CP's obligation, the NCP's
obligation, and the total obligation. Your comments have focused only on
the NCP's CS obligation and have totally ignored what the impact will be
on your CS obligation. In fact, your comments have suggested you don't
recognize your portion of the existing court ordered CS obligation.

By accepting the $1,200 to pay for an adoption you are taking a payoff to
get out from under your court ordered CS obligation. The net legal affect
will be for both the CP's and NCP's legal CS obligation to go away. The
result will be the obligation to support the child will no longer be
controlled by the state/courts.

So my questions are - How much have you been ordered to pay? Have you
been providing it? How do you plan to handle any CS arrearage amounts
from the NCP?

** I am the childs mother, I have provided a hell of alot more financially
and emotionally then his bio-father has. I have paid my due and will
continue the rest of my life.

Not really, no. You had 100% of the *choices*, yet by using the bio-
dad
( Who got ZERO % of the choices ) to fund YOUR choice, you have NOT
" paid your due. "

That comes when you pay in *direct proportion* to your choices: 100%

My husband wants to adopt my son. My son is
thrilled with the idea and cannot wait. The Bio-father has realized he
hasn't been and doesn't care to perform any obligations where his son is
concerned. And that is fine. My son has someone who does and has been.
What's soo wrong about that?

This: You got 100% of the choice. In *every other area of law* that
position
comes bundled with 100% of the *consequences*.

By claiming 100% of the CHOICES, but *refusing* the EQUAL share of
the consequences, you are trying to claim Free Money. From someone YOU
gave ZERO choice to. Thats evil.

What is soo wrong to have all arrears paid up
and the adoption paid for so that my son can be in a family that cares about
him and his well being? This isn't Ebay.. I'm not looking for the best
deal..

Yeah, you a you stated that you wanted the " arrears paid up ". HIS
money for YOUR 100% choice and consequence.

In anything else, thats *theft*. That you got the government to be
your
accomplice in it, mitigates your role not one whit.

I'm looking for the real thing.

Wrong. The " real thing " is, either *share* the choices, or keep ALL
the consequences with ALL of the choices.

All else is demanding special and UNequal treatment. Which is sexist
and evil.

If you had any honour, you would not demand a penny from the man YOU
made, with NO choice for HIM, a bio father. How dare you ? On both
points !

Andre

On Jul 19, 9:45 pm, "Bob Whiteside" wrote:
"teachrmama" wrote in message

...

Well, Bob, it at least sounds as if everyone is ending up satisfied--the
man who never wanted the child (just wanted the child to have his name for
a while) does not have to pay anything any more. The child has a father
who wants him enough to adopt him. And mom, dad, and kid are a family
unit.

Change your opinion yet? She's a nutcase Women's Studies whacko who hates
men and obviously drove her ex away from their son. Once she got her sob
story challenged by a man she went into verbal abuse mode.

Pretty much, yes. If she were really a happy women who had done the
same
degree of her duties as she *kept to herself with her choices*, well,
she'd have
been able to say " I made my choices, and I'm covering their
consequences and
I didn't demand any Free Money from anyone who *I gave AbZero choice
in the
matter to*. "

But, she didn't say that, because she... CAN'T.

She just expects that her view that women get 100% of the choice and
can
then demand 50% of the $$$ from the man who had 0% of the choice is
the
" reasonable " one, and she is shocked into namecalling ( Yes, she
does
fight like a girl... ) when that sexist viewpoint is even questioned,
never mind
challenged.

Feh.

Andre

"Andre Lieven" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 19, 4:52 pm, "April" wrote:
"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message

...

"April" wrote in message
...
** Well, I had to leave my son's father. He was very abusive to
me
and was starting on our son. I could handle it, but you don't
beat
on a 1 1/2 year old because he won't stop crying because he
doesn't
want a nap. He had anxiety issues and was being medicated for
about a
month. Then he quit. He promised month after month to go back but
it
never happened. AFter 3 months State troppers knock on my door
because my husband was caught on surveillance cameras stealing
over
1200.00 for his job.( he worked retail). I couldn't handle
anymore. I
gave him an easy choice. He could forego paying support by just
signing him totally over to me. He refused. He paid child
support.
He couldn't keep a job,and was constantly behind on his payments.
In
over 4 years, he never once tried to see his son yet would tell me
that the name is what's important ( mind you the child knows
nothing
about the family name since his father never saw him) and that he
still loves him. I never will understand my ex-husbands philosophy
on
all of this. But Alas, I have remarried and Next month we all go
downtown to swear in front of the judge that my husband is
adopting
my son. his father finally.. (after 7 years) realizes that our
son
is better off having a father who does things with him and takes
care
of him. So I guess my story DOES have a happy ending

I'm very glad to hear that a man who had no wish to be a father
stepped aside so that the man who wants to be the father is free to
raise your child with you. It's too bad it took the bio dad so
long
to let go. If any child support arrearages have accrued, will you
be
signing a letter of satisfaction saying that they are paid in full?

I wish you and your family the very best, April. It sounds like
things are working out well for all of you.
** to tell you the truth, he paid up all his back arrears and is
also
paying ofor the adoption. Lawyer's idea and I agree... on one hand
he
could be paying the next 9 years of child support or the $1200.00
for
the adoption.. He opted for the latter.

Wait a second. You have a legal CS obligation too. How much have
you
been required to pay all along? Why are you so willing to sell out
your
own CS obligation? Do you really think accepting $1200 lets you off
the
hook to support your child?
** afraid I'm not following what you are saying.

In the majority of states CS orders detail the CP's obligation, the
NCP's
obligation, and the total obligation. Your comments have focused only
on
the NCP's CS obligation and have totally ignored what the impact will
be
on your CS obligation. In fact, your comments have suggested you don't
recognize your portion of the existing court ordered CS obligation.

By accepting the $1,200 to pay for an adoption you are taking a payoff
to
get out from under your court ordered CS obligation. The net legal
affect
will be for both the CP's and NCP's legal CS obligation to go away.
The
result will be the obligation to support the child will no longer be
controlled by the state/courts.

So my questions are - How much have you been ordered to pay? Have you
been providing it? How do you plan to handle any CS arrearage amounts
from the NCP?

** I am the childs mother, I have provided a hell of alot more
financially
and emotionally then his bio-father has. I have paid my due and will
continue the rest of my life.

Not really, no. You had 100% of the *choices*, yet by using the bio-
dad
( Who got ZERO % of the choices ) to fund YOUR choice, you have NOT
" paid your due. "

That comes when you pay in *direct proportion* to your choices: 100%

My husband wants to adopt my son. My son is
thrilled with the idea and cannot wait. The Bio-father has realized he
hasn't been and doesn't care to perform any obligations where his son is
concerned. And that is fine. My son has someone who does and has been.
What's soo wrong about that?

This: You got 100% of the choice. In *every other area of law* that
position
comes bundled with 100% of the *consequences*.

By claiming 100% of the CHOICES, but *refusing* the EQUAL share of
the consequences, you are trying to claim Free Money. From someone YOU
gave ZERO choice to. Thats evil.

What is soo wrong to have all arrears paid up
and the adoption paid for so that my son can be in a family that cares
about
him and his well being? This isn't Ebay.. I'm not looking for the best
deal..

Yeah, you a you stated that you wanted the " arrears paid up ". HIS
money for YOUR 100% choice and consequence.

In anything else, thats *theft*. That you got the government to be
your
accomplice in it, mitigates your role not one whit.

I'm looking for the real thing.

Wrong. The " real thing " is, either *share* the choices, or keep ALL
the consequences with ALL of the choices.

All else is demanding special and UNequal treatment. Which is sexist
and evil.

If you had any honour, you would not demand a penny from the man YOU
made, with NO choice for HIM, a bio father. How dare you ? On both
points !


Andre, they raised the child together for 4 years! She didn't get pregnant,
then demand money. She even gave him the choice to sign away his parental
rights in return for him never having to pay a penny of child support. He
never even came to see the child. How can you say she duped him into
fatherhood? I understand and agree with the need to give men equitable post
conception choices. But I don't understand the POV that says men should
have the option to walk away from a child they helped create and have been
raising and caring for any time they feel like it for any reason or no
reason at all.

"J. Keeper" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 14, 10:19 pm, " wrote:
Yeah. You read that right. He drove all the way from Arizona to Ukiah
in California and shot the succubus in the head. And then he walked
next door to the courthouse and surrendered. You gotta hand it to
him. There's only so much abuse a man can take before reacting. And
this is the kind of man that pushes back, violently.

If the state won't look after men ... men are justified in taking the
law into their own hands.

Indeed. When the government servants fail to do their job, the citizens have
a RESPONSIBILITY to take care of things.

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:16:37 -0700, "Bob Whiteside"
wrote:


Based on your most recent posts showing the extreme anger and hostility you
feel toward men, and your foul language and aggressive attitude toward men,
I find it normal for your ex-husband to not want to have any contact with
you or your son. No wonder he is willing to take your deal to get out of
the abuse cycle.

If you are willing to talk the way you have when addressing a total
stranger, it is not a far stretch to assume you put your ex-husband through
some significant verbal abuse. Why would he want to come around you and
your son to take the abuse? Your son will figure it out in the long term.

Bad language is just rude, and a sign of a bankrupt mind1

A jury is 12 individuals who decides who has the best lawyer.
- Mark Twain

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Chris" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"April" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"April" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"April" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"April" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"April" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"April" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"John Larkin"

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:56:31 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


"John Larkin"

wrote in message
news:k58r9314s5d0bpnn6tgndii8k5tmpc ...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:38:32 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


John, think about it. How would you feel in a
situation
like that. (And
please don't go all preachy on me and tell me how you
would
*never* behave
in such a way as to create such a problem)


I have no idea. I wouldn't get into a situation like
that.

How did I know that you were going to say that. So,
John,
I
would like a
bit of clarification from you. Do you feel that it is
ok
for
a woman to
conceal from a man the fact that he is a father until 12
years have passed,
then demand current child support plus 12 years of back
support? Do you
feel that she is doing right by the child to deny that
child
a father for 12
years so she can build herself a nice nest egg?


I'd prefer she didn't, but then if she has fed, housed,
and
cared for
his kid for 12 years, don't you think he owes her
something?
Even if
she collects $84K, that amounts to $7000 a year, about
80
cents an
hour, not to mention expenses like food and clothing and
medical.

I would say that when the woman can give the man HIS
SHARE
of
the hugs and kisses, the first steps and first sords, the
firts day of schools, the "let's paly ball, Dad's" and
wrestling matches and dancing-on-Daddy's-feets, and all
the
other wonderful growing up memories that dad's and kids
share,
then and only then should he pay her "child support" for
all
the years she stole from him and his child. If SHE made
the
unilateral decision to be a single parent for 12 years
(while
keeping all the wonders of the child's growing and
development
for herself), she should be not only willing, but
obligated,
to pay the price herself.

If you gave your friend a lawnmower, and he mowed your
lawn
for you for 5 years, but only did it while you were at
work,
and never told you he was doing it, would you be willing
to
fork over several thousand dollars when he demanded it at
the
end of 5 years?

Sorry, but I see too many men who abuse their children or
spouses to totally agree with you. To make my point, if
you
gave your friend a lawnmower and he broke it while doing
your
lawn.... should YOU have to pay for it?

Oh, I see. Because some men abuse their children, all men
should be handed the sh*tty end of the stick?
** I'm not saying that. You were making a genaralization
and
so
was I. Each case is different.

That doesn't even begin to make sense, April.
Are you attempting to say that a woman who has a child
without
informing the man that she is pregnant, then demands 12
years
of
back child support plus ongoing support has the RIGHT to do
that. because some men have been abusive?
**Nope, wasn't attempting.

No proof necessary that this particular man might become
abusive--just the woman's unilateral decision? I've known
some
mothers who have abused their children--does that mean that
it
is ok with you that a father could take his child and run
off
with the child, and 12 years later demand 12 years of back
child
support?
** My Mother left my father with me when I was 2, After 30
years,
I finally found my father. My mother told me lies all my
life.
I WAS an abused child. Mentally, Physically and Emotionally
by
her. My mother doesn't deserve anything. It was her choice
to
keep me away from my father all those years and deprive me
of
having him in my formative years. ( doesn't matter, come to
find
out I was always like him even when he wasn't around lol)
I'm
just saying you were generalizing in your post so I retorted
doing the same. I don't totally disagree with you but I
don't
totally agree either. There are exceptions.

But, unfortunately, the current CS law does not recognize
that.
It's "victim mommy" deserves the money becuase she raised the
child alone. I do not think that a mother who purposely keeps
a
child from the father deserves a flipping penny whe she
finally
proves paternity. IF she is doing because of abuse, she needs
to
PROVE it!! But the system doesn't care about anything except
the
almighty dollar. To heck with a child's need to have 2
parents--only money matters.



** Isn't that the way the world is with EVERYTHING? Sad I
know,
but it's the truth. Money is the most important thing to most
ppl
anymore. Not values.. and certainly not morals.

So let's get this down to your personal opinion--not that it is
any
more important than mine or any other individual's when it
comes
to
the child support system. Do you, personally, think that a
woman
should be able to have a child without informing the father,
raise
that child for 12 years, then demand 12 years of back child
support
and ongoing support? (Barring any sort of abuse, of course) Do
you
think this is right?


**No I don't. As I said it was her choice to keep the father
away
from the child not his. Whay should he have to pay for her
choice?
Now, if the mother is prepared to allow the father visitation
and
allow him to get to know his child. I think from that point on
out
he should pay child support. Hard to pay for something you
didn't
even know you had.

Yes, that's my take on it also. Some places, however, still
charge
a
man back to the birth of the child, no matter what. Other places
have
recognized the unfairness of using a man as a savings account
without
his knowledge, and limit the amount of time they charge for.
Some
have refused to charge any arrearages at all in such situations.

From your experience growing up without your father, I can see
that
you realize first hand how important it is for a child to have
his/
father in his/her life. I wish more people understood that money
will
never replace a father. Nor can the hole in the father's heart
be
healed by telling him "but you get to pay for all the time you
missed."

** Well, I had to leave my son's father. He was very abusive to
me
and
was starting on our son. I could handle it, but you don't beat on
a
1
1/2 year old because he won't stop crying because he doesn't want
a
nap. He had anxiety issues and was being medicated for about a
month.
Then he quit. He promised month after month to go back but it
never
happened. AFter 3 months State troppers knock on my door because
my
husband was caught on surveillance cameras stealing over 1200.00
for
his job.( he worked retail). I couldn't handle anymore. I gave him
an
easy choice. He could forego paying support by just signing him
totally over to me. He refused. He paid child support. He
couldn't
keep a job,and was constantly behind on his payments. In over 4
years,
he never once tried to see his son yet would tell me that the name
is
what's important ( mind you the child knows nothing about the
family
name since his father never saw him) and that he still loves him.
I
never will understand my ex-husbands philosophy on all of this.
But
Alas, I have remarried and Next month we all go downtown to swear
in
front of the judge that my husband is adopting my son. his father
finally.. (after 7 years) realizes that our son is better off
having
a
father who does things with him and takes care of him. So I guess
my
story DOES have a happy ending

I'm very glad to hear that a man who had no wish to be a father
stepped
aside so that the man who wants to be the father is free to raise
your
child with you. It's too bad it took the bio dad so long to let
go.
If
any child support arrearages have accrued, will you be signing a
letter
of satisfaction saying that they are paid in full?

I wish you and your family the very best, April. It sounds like
things
are working out well for all of you.
** to tell you the truth, he paid up all his back arrears and is
also
paying ofor the adoption. Lawyer's idea and I agree... on one hand
he
could be paying the next 9 years of child support or the $1200.00
for
the
adoption.. He opted for the latter.

Wait a second. You have a legal CS obligation too. How much have
you
been required to pay all along? Why are you so willing to sell out
your
own CS obligation? Do you really think accepting $1200 lets you off
the
hook to support your child?

I don't quite understand what you are asking, Bob. April said her
child's
bio father never wanted anything to do with the child, but refused to
sign
away his rights.

Just curious: what exactly are these "rights"?

The right to be legally identified as the boy's father.

Translation: The right to have his money extorted from him.

He wanted the boy
to have HIS last name. You would have to discuss with him why he wanted
that, because he was given the opportunity to walk away, but he didn't
take
it. Interesting, huh, Chris.