Man walks into office and kills ex-girlfriend over child support

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"John Larkin" wrote
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On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:56:31 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote
in
message
news:k58r9314s5d0bpnn6tgndii8k5tmpcnvok@4 ax.com...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:38:32 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


John, think about it. How would you feel in a situation like
that. (And
please don't go all preachy on me and tell me how you would
*never* behave
in such a way as to create such a problem)


I have no idea. I wouldn't get into a situation like that.

How did I know that you were going to say that. So, John, I
would
like a
bit of clarification from you. Do you feel that it is ok for a
woman to
conceal from a man the fact that he is a father until 12 years
have
passed,
then demand current child support plus 12 years of back support?
Do you
feel that she is doing right by the child to deny that child a
father for 12
years so she can build herself a nice nest egg?


I'd prefer she didn't, but then if she has fed, housed, and cared
for
his kid for 12 years, don't you think he owes her something? Even
if
she collects $84K, that amounts to $7000 a year, about 80 cents
an
hour, not to mention expenses like food and clothing and medical.

I would say that when the woman can give the man HIS SHARE of the
hugs and kisses, the first steps and first sords, the firts day of
schools, the "let's paly ball, Dad's" and wrestling matches and
dancing-on-Daddy's-feets, and all the other wonderful growing up
memories that dad's and kids share, then and only then should he
pay
her "child support" for all the years she stole from him and his
child. If SHE made the unilateral decision to be a single parent
for
12 years (while keeping all the wonders of the child's growing and
development for herself), she should be not only willing, but
obligated, to pay the price herself.

If you gave your friend a lawnmower, and he mowed your lawn for
you
for 5 years, but only did it while you were at work, and never
told
you he was doing it, would you be willing to fork over several
thousand dollars when he demanded it at the end of 5 years?

Sorry, but I see too many men who abuse their children or spouses
to
totally agree with you. To make my point, if you gave your friend
a
lawnmower and he broke it while doing your lawn.... should YOU have
to pay for it?

Oh, I see. Because some men abuse their children, all men should be
handed the sh*tty end of the stick?
** I'm not saying that. You were making a genaralization and so was
I.
Each case is different.

That doesn't even begin to make sense, April.
Are you attempting to say that a woman who has a child without
informing the man that she is pregnant, then demands 12 years of
back
child support plus ongoing support has the RIGHT to do that. because
some men have been abusive?
**Nope, wasn't attempting.

No proof necessary that this particular man might become
abusive--just the woman's unilateral decision? I've known some
mothers who have abused their children--does that mean that it is ok
with you that a father could take his child and run off with the
child, and 12 years later demand 12 years of back child support?
** My Mother left my father with me when I was 2, After 30 years, I
finally found my father. My mother told me lies all my life. I WAS
an
abused child. Mentally, Physically and Emotionally by her. My mother
doesn't deserve anything. It was her choice to keep me away from my
father all those years and deprive me of having him in my formative
years. ( doesn't matter, come to find out I was always like him even
when he wasn't around lol) I'm just saying you were generalizing in
your post so I retorted doing the same. I don't totally disagree
with
you but I don't totally agree either. There are exceptions.

But, unfortunately, the current CS law does not recognize that. It's
"victim mommy" deserves the money becuase she raised the child alone.
I
do not think that a mother who purposely keeps a child from the father
deserves a flipping penny whe she finally proves paternity. IF she is

doing because of abuse, she needs to PROVE it!! But the system
doesn't
care about anything except the almighty dollar. To heck with a
child's
need to have 2 parents--only money matters.



** Isn't that the way the world is with EVERYTHING? Sad I know, but
it's
the truth. Money is the most important thing to most ppl anymore. Not
values.. and certainly not morals.

So let's get this down to your personal opinion--not that it is any more
important than mine or any other individual's when it comes to the child
support system. Do you, personally, think that a woman should be able
to
have a child without informing the father, raise that child for 12
years,
then demand 12 years of back child support and ongoing support?
(Barring
any sort of abuse, of course) Do you think this is right?


**No I don't. As I said it was her choice to keep the father away from
the
child not his. Whay should he have to pay for her choice?

I agree. He should NOT have to pay her money for her SOLE choice to have a
baby.

Now, if the
mother is prepared to allow the father visitation and allow him to get to
know his child. I think from that point on out he should pay child
support.

That's right. He should have to pay money for the privilege to see her
child..........


Hard to pay for something you didn't even know you had.

Even HARDER to pay money by way of extortion!

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"John Larkin"
wrote in message
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On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:56:31 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


"John Larkin"
wrote in message
news:k58r9314s5d0bpnn6tgndii8k5tmpc ...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:38:32 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


John, think about it. How would you feel in a situation
like that. (And
please don't go all preachy on me and tell me how you would
*never* behave
in such a way as to create such a problem)


I have no idea. I wouldn't get into a situation like that.

How did I know that you were going to say that. So, John, I
would like a
bit of clarification from you. Do you feel that it is ok for
a woman to
conceal from a man the fact that he is a father until 12
years have passed,
then demand current child support plus 12 years of back
support? Do you
feel that she is doing right by the child to deny that child
a father for 12
years so she can build herself a nice nest egg?


I'd prefer she didn't, but then if she has fed, housed, and
cared for
his kid for 12 years, don't you think he owes her something?
Even if
she collects $84K, that amounts to $7000 a year, about 80
cents an
hour, not to mention expenses like food and clothing and
medical.

I would say that when the woman can give the man HIS SHARE of
the hugs and kisses, the first steps and first sords, the
firts day of schools, the "let's paly ball, Dad's" and
wrestling matches and dancing-on-Daddy's-feets, and all the
other wonderful growing up memories that dad's and kids share,
then and only then should he pay her "child support" for all
the years she stole from him and his child. If SHE made the
unilateral decision to be a single parent for 12 years (while
keeping all the wonders of the child's growing and development
for herself), she should be not only willing, but obligated,
to pay the price herself.

If you gave your friend a lawnmower, and he mowed your lawn
for you for 5 years, but only did it while you were at work,
and never told you he was doing it, would you be willing to
fork over several thousand dollars when he demanded it at the
end of 5 years?

Sorry, but I see too many men who abuse their children or
spouses to totally agree with you. To make my point, if you
gave your friend a lawnmower and he broke it while doing your
lawn.... should YOU have to pay for it?

Oh, I see. Because some men abuse their children, all men
should be handed the sh*tty end of the stick?
** I'm not saying that. You were making a genaralization and so
was I. Each case is different.

That doesn't even begin to make sense, April.
Are you attempting to say that a woman who has a child without
informing the man that she is pregnant, then demands 12 years of
back child support plus ongoing support has the RIGHT to do
that. because some men have been abusive?
**Nope, wasn't attempting.

No proof necessary that this particular man might become
abusive--just the woman's unilateral decision? I've known some
mothers who have abused their children--does that mean that it
is ok with you that a father could take his child and run off
with the child, and 12 years later demand 12 years of back child
support?
** My Mother left my father with me when I was 2, After 30 years,
I finally found my father. My mother told me lies all my life.
I WAS an abused child. Mentally, Physically and Emotionally by
her. My mother doesn't deserve anything. It was her choice to
keep me away from my father all those years and deprive me of
having him in my formative years. ( doesn't matter, come to find
out I was always like him even when he wasn't around lol) I'm
just saying you were generalizing in your post so I retorted
doing the same. I don't totally disagree with you but I don't
totally agree either. There are exceptions.

But, unfortunately, the current CS law does not recognize that.
It's "victim mommy" deserves the money becuase she raised the
child alone. I do not think that a mother who purposely keeps a
child from the father deserves a flipping penny whe she finally
proves paternity. IF she is doing because of abuse, she needs to
PROVE it!! But the system doesn't care about anything except the
almighty dollar. To heck with a child's need to have 2
parents--only money matters.



** Isn't that the way the world is with EVERYTHING? Sad I know,
but it's the truth. Money is the most important thing to most ppl
anymore. Not values.. and certainly not morals.

So let's get this down to your personal opinion--not that it is any
more important than mine or any other individual's when it comes to
the child support system. Do you, personally, think that a woman
should be able to have a child without informing the father, raise
that child for 12 years, then demand 12 years of back child support
and ongoing support? (Barring any sort of abuse, of course) Do you
think this is right?


**No I don't. As I said it was her choice to keep the father away
from the child not his. Whay should he have to pay for her choice?
Now, if the mother is prepared to allow the father visitation and
allow him to get to know his child. I think from that point on out
he should pay child support. Hard to pay for something you didn't
even know you had.

Yes, that's my take on it also. Some places, however, still charge a
man back to the birth of the child, no matter what. Other places have
recognized the unfairness of using a man as a savings account without
his knowledge, and limit the amount of time they charge for. Some
have refused to charge any arrearages at all in such situations.

From your experience growing up without your father, I can see that
you realize first hand how important it is for a child to have his/
father in his/her life. I wish more people understood that money will
never replace a father. Nor can the hole in the father's heart be
healed by telling him "but you get to pay for all the time you
missed."

** Well, I had to leave my son's father. He was very abusive to me and
was starting on our son. I could handle it, but you don't beat on a 1
1/2 year old because he won't stop crying because he doesn't want a
nap. He had anxiety issues and was being medicated for about a month.
Then he quit. He promised month after month to go back but it never
happened. AFter 3 months State troppers knock on my door because my
husband was caught on surveillance cameras stealing over 1200.00 for
his job.( he worked retail). I couldn't handle anymore. I gave him an
easy choice. He could forego paying support by just signing him
totally over to me. He refused. He paid child support. He couldn't
keep a job,and was constantly behind on his payments. In over 4 years,
he never once tried to see his son yet would tell me that the name is
what's important ( mind you the child knows nothing about the family
name since his father never saw him) and that he still loves him. I
never will understand my ex-husbands philosophy on all of this. But
Alas, I have remarried and Next month we all go downtown to swear in
front of the judge that my husband is adopting my son. his father
finally.. (after 7 years) realizes that our son is better off having a
father who does things with him and takes care of him. So I guess my
story DOES have a happy ending

I'm very glad to hear that a man who had no wish to be a father stepped
aside so that the man who wants to be the father is free to raise your
child with you. It's too bad it took the bio dad so long to let go. If
any child support arrearages have accrued, will you be signing a letter
of satisfaction saying that they are paid in full?

I wish you and your family the very best, April. It sounds like things
are working out well for all of you.
** to tell you the truth, he paid up all his back arrears and is also
paying ofor the adoption. Lawyer's idea and I agree... on one hand he
could be paying the next 9 years of child support or the $1200.00 for the
adoption.. He opted for the latter.

Wait a second. You have a legal CS obligation too. How much have you
been required to pay all along? Why are you so willing to sell out your
own CS obligation? Do you really think accepting $1200 lets you off the
hook to support your child?

I don't quite understand what you are asking, Bob. April said her child's
bio father never wanted anything to do with the child, but refused to sign
away his rights. This last year, he said he would sign away his rights and
let April's husband, who has been raising the child along with April, adopt
him. He has agreed to pay the $1200 adoption fee. Then he doesn't have to
pay child support for 9 more years for a child he has never even attempted
to have a relationship with. April has been doing her part to support her
son all along.

"DB" wrote in message
. net...

"John Larkin" wrote in

I had a kid, split with her mother, and paid a lot of support. No
legal proceedings made me do it. I did it because the kid was mine.

How about you? Any experiences here?

yea, I've been completely ****ed over@

Lost my job, my ability to work and waiting for deportation proceedings!

This is for the best interest of the child! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Too bad you weren't from the OPPOSITE border. Then you would be welcome with
open arms. Of course you would have had to commit the felony of sneaking in.

"John Larkin" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 07:30:34 -0700, "DB" wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in

I'd prefer she didn't, but then if she has fed, housed, and cared for
his kid for 12 years, don't you think he owes her something?

His Kid?

I thought that was the case.


Owe her something?

Owes his kid, actually.

How so?



You talk as if raising a child is a total burden with no joy involved.

No, but it is expensive.

Why is it my father could raise 3 kids on one blue collar income, yet
women
seem to think they are charity cases and deserve a hand out to raise
their
own off spring?

I don't know what women "seem to think." The laws were written mostly
by men. And it's very rare for people who are legally entitled to
stuff to not demand it.


I think that sex education classes, in addition to teaching about
sperm and eggs and condoms and AIDS, should also teach about child
support laws and wage attachments and statutes of limitation. Maybe
less guys would get into trouble.

I agree, not many people are aware of child support tyranny that can
ruine
their lives!
Forget the sex education bit, most women who find themselves being a
single
parent are in there 30's and some in there early 40's. If it's their
body
and their choice, then let them live with their choice!!!!!!!!!!!1

Do you feel that men can have sex with women and just abandon them and
the resulting children?

It's a free world and people are free to make their own choices, choose
wisely!

Exactly. Play the game and know the risks.

That's why some women end up being at room temperature; because they "played
the game". Makes you wonder if they too knew the risks.



Why do we tax payers always have to clean up the mess of people's full
free
decisions?

Child support enforcement is intended to shift the risk to the missing
parent, and away from taxpayers.

But RARELY to the parent solely responsible for bringing the child into
existence.



And don't drive drunk, or rob banks, because that's illegal too.

It's also illegal to Speed, can you say you have never broken the law?


If I speed, I'm running a calculated risk, and I know I'll be fined if
I am nabbed. So I drive 75 on the freeway, like most everybody else,
and the risk is acceptable. I don't drive 95, because that's a much
bigger deal. If I do get a ticket, I just pay it.

I might point out that the child support laws were written a long time
before women were allowed to be legislators or judges or even to vote.
If it's the laws you are unhappy about, blame the men who wrote them.
Otherwise, blame nature. But any guy who understands the law and
understands nature can judge the risks for himself. Same as mountain
climbing: there's fun and there's risk.

I had a kid, split with her mother, and paid a lot of support. No
legal proceedings made me do it. I did it because the kid was mine.

So therefore ALL men should do it........


How about you? Any experiences here?

John

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:27:32 GMT, "Gini" wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote
......................
Do you feel that men can have sex with women and just abandon them and
the resulting children? Well, the law doesn't, so be careful. And
don't drive drunk, or rob banks, because that's illegal too.
==
Bad analogies. Very bad. These crimes are illegal for everyone. Only NCPs
are mandated to
to spend a percentage of their income on their children. CPs aren't required
to nor
are parents in intact families.


Child neglect is a crime.

John

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 00:02:57 -0700, "Chris" wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 07:30:34 -0700, "DB" wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in

I'd prefer she didn't, but then if she has fed, housed, and cared for
his kid for 12 years, don't you think he owes her something?

His Kid?

I thought that was the case.


Owe her something?

Owes his kid, actually.

How so?

Tradition and law.

John

"John Larkin" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:56:31 -0700, "teachrmama"
wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote in
message
.. .
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:38:32 -0700, "teachrmama"
wrote:


John, think about it. How would you feel in a situation like that.
(And
please don't go all preachy on me and tell me how you would *never*
behave
in such a way as to create such a problem)


I have no idea. I wouldn't get into a situation like that.

How did I know that you were going to say that. So, John, I would like a
bit of clarification from you. Do you feel that it is ok for a woman to
conceal from a man the fact that he is a father until 12 years have
passed,
then demand current child support plus 12 years of back support? Do you
feel that she is doing right by the child to deny that child a father for
12
years so she can build herself a nice nest egg?


I'd prefer she didn't, but then if she has fed, housed, and cared for
his kid for 12 years,

They're "his" kids when it comes to handing free cash to the mother. But
when it comes to the right to raise them or even the right to simply know
they exist, suddenly they are HER kids. How convenient!

don't you think he owes her something?

If I secretly chose to purchase a vehicle with the money you donated to me ,
and insured it, payed the taxes on it, maintained it, and
kept its gas tank full, don't you think you owe me something?

Even if
she collects $84K, that amounts to $7000 a year, about 80 cents an
hour, not to mention expenses like food and clothing and medical.

Irrelevant.


I think that sex education classes, in addition to teaching about
sperm and eggs and condoms and AIDS, should also teach about child
support laws and wage attachments and statutes of limitation. Maybe
less guys would get into trouble.

Do you feel that men can have sex with women and just abandon them and
the resulting children? Well, the law doesn't,

Yes it does if the man is married to the mother.

so be careful. And
don't drive drunk, or rob banks, because that's illegal too.

The difference being that the latter two are immoral, not to mention
applicable across the board. Faulty analogy.


John

"John Larkin" wrote
"Gini" wrote:


"John Larkin" wrote
......................
Do you feel that men can have sex with women and just abandon them and
the resulting children? Well, the law doesn't, so be careful. And
don't drive drunk, or rob banks, because that's illegal too.
==
Bad analogies. Very bad. These crimes are illegal for everyone. Only NCPs
are mandated to
to spend a percentage of their income on their children. CPs aren't
required
to nor
are parents in intact families.


Child neglect is a crime.
==
No ****. That's the best you could come up with?

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"John Larkin"
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:56:31 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


"John Larkin"
wrote in message
news:k58r9314s5d0bpnn6tgndii8k5tmpc ...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:38:32 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


John, think about it. How would you feel in a situation
like that. (And
please don't go all preachy on me and tell me how you
would
*never* behave
in such a way as to create such a problem)


I have no idea. I wouldn't get into a situation like
that.

How did I know that you were going to say that. So, John,
I
would like a
bit of clarification from you. Do you feel that it is ok
for
a woman to
conceal from a man the fact that he is a father until 12
years have passed,
then demand current child support plus 12 years of back
support? Do you
feel that she is doing right by the child to deny that
child
a father for 12
years so she can build herself a nice nest egg?


I'd prefer she didn't, but then if she has fed, housed, and
cared for
his kid for 12 years, don't you think he owes her
something?
Even if
she collects $84K, that amounts to $7000 a year, about 80
cents an
hour, not to mention expenses like food and clothing and
medical.

I would say that when the woman can give the man HIS SHARE
of
the hugs and kisses, the first steps and first sords, the
firts day of schools, the "let's paly ball, Dad's" and
wrestling matches and dancing-on-Daddy's-feets, and all the
other wonderful growing up memories that dad's and kids
share,
then and only then should he pay her "child support" for all
the years she stole from him and his child. If SHE made the
unilateral decision to be a single parent for 12 years
(while
keeping all the wonders of the child's growing and
development
for herself), she should be not only willing, but obligated,
to pay the price herself.

If you gave your friend a lawnmower, and he mowed your lawn
for you for 5 years, but only did it while you were at work,
and never told you he was doing it, would you be willing to
fork over several thousand dollars when he demanded it at
the
end of 5 years?

Sorry, but I see too many men who abuse their children or
spouses to totally agree with you. To make my point, if you
gave your friend a lawnmower and he broke it while doing your
lawn.... should YOU have to pay for it?

Oh, I see. Because some men abuse their children, all men
should be handed the sh*tty end of the stick?
** I'm not saying that. You were making a genaralization and
so
was I. Each case is different.

That doesn't even begin to make sense, April.
Are you attempting to say that a woman who has a child without
informing the man that she is pregnant, then demands 12 years
of
back child support plus ongoing support has the RIGHT to do
that. because some men have been abusive?
**Nope, wasn't attempting.

No proof necessary that this particular man might become
abusive--just the woman's unilateral decision? I've known
some
mothers who have abused their children--does that mean that it
is ok with you that a father could take his child and run off
with the child, and 12 years later demand 12 years of back
child
support?
** My Mother left my father with me when I was 2, After 30
years,
I finally found my father. My mother told me lies all my life.
I WAS an abused child. Mentally, Physically and Emotionally by
her. My mother doesn't deserve anything. It was her choice to
keep me away from my father all those years and deprive me of
having him in my formative years. ( doesn't matter, come to
find
out I was always like him even when he wasn't around lol) I'm
just saying you were generalizing in your post so I retorted
doing the same. I don't totally disagree with you but I don't
totally agree either. There are exceptions.

But, unfortunately, the current CS law does not recognize that.
It's "victim mommy" deserves the money becuase she raised the
child alone. I do not think that a mother who purposely keeps a
child from the father deserves a flipping penny whe she finally
proves paternity. IF she is doing because of abuse, she needs to
PROVE it!! But the system doesn't care about anything except the
almighty dollar. To heck with a child's need to have 2
parents--only money matters.



** Isn't that the way the world is with EVERYTHING? Sad I know,
but it's the truth. Money is the most important thing to most
ppl
anymore. Not values.. and certainly not morals.

So let's get this down to your personal opinion--not that it is
any
more important than mine or any other individual's when it comes
to
the child support system. Do you, personally, think that a woman
should be able to have a child without informing the father, raise
that child for 12 years, then demand 12 years of back child
support
and ongoing support? (Barring any sort of abuse, of course) Do
you
think this is right?


**No I don't. As I said it was her choice to keep the father away
from the child not his. Whay should he have to pay for her choice?
Now, if the mother is prepared to allow the father visitation and
allow him to get to know his child. I think from that point on out
he should pay child support. Hard to pay for something you didn't
even know you had.

Yes, that's my take on it also. Some places, however, still charge
a
man back to the birth of the child, no matter what. Other places
have
recognized the unfairness of using a man as a savings account
without
his knowledge, and limit the amount of time they charge for. Some
have refused to charge any arrearages at all in such situations.

From your experience growing up without your father, I can see that
you realize first hand how important it is for a child to have his/
father in his/her life. I wish more people understood that money
will
never replace a father. Nor can the hole in the father's heart be
healed by telling him "but you get to pay for all the time you
missed."

** Well, I had to leave my son's father. He was very abusive to me
and
was starting on our son. I could handle it, but you don't beat on a
1
1/2 year old because he won't stop crying because he doesn't want a
nap. He had anxiety issues and was being medicated for about a month.
Then he quit. He promised month after month to go back but it never
happened. AFter 3 months State troppers knock on my door because my
husband was caught on surveillance cameras stealing over 1200.00 for
his job.( he worked retail). I couldn't handle anymore. I gave him an
easy choice. He could forego paying support by just signing him
totally over to me. He refused. He paid child support. He couldn't
keep a job,and was constantly behind on his payments. In over 4
years,
he never once tried to see his son yet would tell me that the name is
what's important ( mind you the child knows nothing about the family
name since his father never saw him) and that he still loves him. I
never will understand my ex-husbands philosophy on all of this. But
Alas, I have remarried and Next month we all go downtown to swear in
front of the judge that my husband is adopting my son. his father
finally.. (after 7 years) realizes that our son is better off having
a
father who does things with him and takes care of him. So I guess my
story DOES have a happy ending

I'm very glad to hear that a man who had no wish to be a father
stepped
aside so that the man who wants to be the father is free to raise your
child with you. It's too bad it took the bio dad so long to let go.
If
any child support arrearages have accrued, will you be signing a
letter
of satisfaction saying that they are paid in full?

I wish you and your family the very best, April. It sounds like
things
are working out well for all of you.
** to tell you the truth, he paid up all his back arrears and is also
paying ofor the adoption. Lawyer's idea and I agree... on one hand he
could be paying the next 9 years of child support or the $1200.00 for
the
adoption.. He opted for the latter.

Wait a second. You have a legal CS obligation too. How much have you
been required to pay all along? Why are you so willing to sell out your
own CS obligation? Do you really think accepting $1200 lets you off the
hook to support your child?

I don't quite understand what you are asking, Bob. April said her child's
bio father never wanted anything to do with the child, but refused to sign
away his rights.

Just curious: what exactly are these "rights"?

This last year, he said he would sign away his rights and
let April's husband, who has been raising the child along with April,
adopt
him. He has agreed to pay the $1200 adoption fee. Then he doesn't have
to
pay child support for 9 more years for a child he has never even attempted
to have a relationship with. April has been doing her part to support her
son all along.

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"John Larkin"
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:56:31 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


"John Larkin"
wrote in message
news:k58r9314s5d0bpnn6tgndii8k5tmpc ...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:38:32 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


John, think about it. How would you feel in a situation
like that. (And
please don't go all preachy on me and tell me how you
would
*never* behave
in such a way as to create such a problem)


I have no idea. I wouldn't get into a situation like
that.

How did I know that you were going to say that. So, John,
I
would like a
bit of clarification from you. Do you feel that it is ok
for
a woman to
conceal from a man the fact that he is a father until 12
years have passed,
then demand current child support plus 12 years of back
support? Do you
feel that she is doing right by the child to deny that
child
a father for 12
years so she can build herself a nice nest egg?


I'd prefer she didn't, but then if she has fed, housed,
and
cared for
his kid for 12 years, don't you think he owes her
something?
Even if
she collects $84K, that amounts to $7000 a year, about 80
cents an
hour, not to mention expenses like food and clothing and
medical.

I would say that when the woman can give the man HIS SHARE
of
the hugs and kisses, the first steps and first sords, the
firts day of schools, the "let's paly ball, Dad's" and
wrestling matches and dancing-on-Daddy's-feets, and all the
other wonderful growing up memories that dad's and kids
share,
then and only then should he pay her "child support" for
all
the years she stole from him and his child. If SHE made the
unilateral decision to be a single parent for 12 years
(while
keeping all the wonders of the child's growing and
development
for herself), she should be not only willing, but
obligated,
to pay the price herself.

If you gave your friend a lawnmower, and he mowed your lawn
for you for 5 years, but only did it while you were at
work,
and never told you he was doing it, would you be willing to
fork over several thousand dollars when he demanded it at
the
end of 5 years?

Sorry, but I see too many men who abuse their children or
spouses to totally agree with you. To make my point, if you
gave your friend a lawnmower and he broke it while doing
your
lawn.... should YOU have to pay for it?

Oh, I see. Because some men abuse their children, all men
should be handed the sh*tty end of the stick?
** I'm not saying that. You were making a genaralization and
so
was I. Each case is different.

That doesn't even begin to make sense, April.
Are you attempting to say that a woman who has a child
without
informing the man that she is pregnant, then demands 12 years
of
back child support plus ongoing support has the RIGHT to do
that. because some men have been abusive?
**Nope, wasn't attempting.

No proof necessary that this particular man might become
abusive--just the woman's unilateral decision? I've known
some
mothers who have abused their children--does that mean that
it
is ok with you that a father could take his child and run off
with the child, and 12 years later demand 12 years of back
child
support?
** My Mother left my father with me when I was 2, After 30
years,
I finally found my father. My mother told me lies all my
life.
I WAS an abused child. Mentally, Physically and Emotionally by
her. My mother doesn't deserve anything. It was her choice to
keep me away from my father all those years and deprive me of
having him in my formative years. ( doesn't matter, come to
find
out I was always like him even when he wasn't around lol) I'm
just saying you were generalizing in your post so I retorted
doing the same. I don't totally disagree with you but I don't
totally agree either. There are exceptions.

But, unfortunately, the current CS law does not recognize that.
It's "victim mommy" deserves the money becuase she raised the
child alone. I do not think that a mother who purposely keeps a
child from the father deserves a flipping penny whe she finally
proves paternity. IF she is doing because of abuse, she needs
to
PROVE it!! But the system doesn't care about anything except
the
almighty dollar. To heck with a child's need to have 2
parents--only money matters.



** Isn't that the way the world is with EVERYTHING? Sad I know,
but it's the truth. Money is the most important thing to most
ppl
anymore. Not values.. and certainly not morals.

So let's get this down to your personal opinion--not that it is
any
more important than mine or any other individual's when it comes
to
the child support system. Do you, personally, think that a woman
should be able to have a child without informing the father,
raise
that child for 12 years, then demand 12 years of back child
support
and ongoing support? (Barring any sort of abuse, of course) Do
you
think this is right?


**No I don't. As I said it was her choice to keep the father away
from the child not his. Whay should he have to pay for her
choice?
Now, if the mother is prepared to allow the father visitation and
allow him to get to know his child. I think from that point on
out
he should pay child support. Hard to pay for something you didn't
even know you had.

Yes, that's my take on it also. Some places, however, still charge
a
man back to the birth of the child, no matter what. Other places
have
recognized the unfairness of using a man as a savings account
without
his knowledge, and limit the amount of time they charge for. Some
have refused to charge any arrearages at all in such situations.

From your experience growing up without your father, I can see that
you realize first hand how important it is for a child to have his/
father in his/her life. I wish more people understood that money
will
never replace a father. Nor can the hole in the father's heart be
healed by telling him "but you get to pay for all the time you
missed."

** Well, I had to leave my son's father. He was very abusive to me
and
was starting on our son. I could handle it, but you don't beat on a
1
1/2 year old because he won't stop crying because he doesn't want a
nap. He had anxiety issues and was being medicated for about a
month.
Then he quit. He promised month after month to go back but it never
happened. AFter 3 months State troppers knock on my door because my
husband was caught on surveillance cameras stealing over 1200.00 for
his job.( he worked retail). I couldn't handle anymore. I gave him
an
easy choice. He could forego paying support by just signing him
totally over to me. He refused. He paid child support. He
couldn't
keep a job,and was constantly behind on his payments. In over 4
years,
he never once tried to see his son yet would tell me that the name
is
what's important ( mind you the child knows nothing about the family
name since his father never saw him) and that he still loves him. I
never will understand my ex-husbands philosophy on all of this. But
Alas, I have remarried and Next month we all go downtown to swear in
front of the judge that my husband is adopting my son. his father
finally.. (after 7 years) realizes that our son is better off having
a
father who does things with him and takes care of him. So I guess
my
story DOES have a happy ending

I'm very glad to hear that a man who had no wish to be a father
stepped
aside so that the man who wants to be the father is free to raise
your
child with you. It's too bad it took the bio dad so long to let go.
If
any child support arrearages have accrued, will you be signing a
letter
of satisfaction saying that they are paid in full?

I wish you and your family the very best, April. It sounds like
things
are working out well for all of you.
** to tell you the truth, he paid up all his back arrears and is also
paying ofor the adoption. Lawyer's idea and I agree... on one hand he
could be paying the next 9 years of child support or the $1200.00 for
the
adoption.. He opted for the latter.

Wait a second. You have a legal CS obligation too. How much have you
been required to pay all along? Why are you so willing to sell out
your
own CS obligation? Do you really think accepting $1200 lets you off
the
hook to support your child?

I don't quite understand what you are asking, Bob. April said her
child's
bio father never wanted anything to do with the child, but refused to
sign
away his rights.

Just curious: what exactly are these "rights"?

The right to be legally identified as the boy's father. He wanted the boy
to have HIS last name. You would have to discuss with him why he wanted
that, because he was given the opportunity to walk away, but he didn't take
it. Interesting, huh, Chris.