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Plant Prattlings....was....Would you trust CPS which has FAILED EVERY STATE



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 19th 04, 07:07 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plant Prattlings....was....Would you trust CPS which has FAILED EVERY STATE

On 19 May 2004 14:04:25 GMT, (Fern5827) wrote:

....yet more prattling nonsense which she posted off topic to aps,
instead of ascps where it is on topic...I fixed it for you, rummy
dummy.

And I'll answer your question with another:

Would you trust CPS, who while operating under federal guidelines that
are being questioned now, as I have in the past, as being inoperable
for adequate delivery of client services, was able to bring down the
number of abuses and even reduced the number of sexual abuse cases by
40%?

They have done what pilots have been made heros for...the safe landing
of a badly disabled aircraft.

With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save children
lives.

And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.

Why should families trust the expertise of CPS


Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific job
under nearly impossible odds.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and performance.


Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent have
ignored?

The criteria for how funding is applied is controlled by the feds, and
it is questionable if states can meet the needs of clients by the
application of the federal criteria. In fact it's proving not the
failure of the states, but the failure of the FEDS....AS PER USUAL.

In other words, the fix was in from the beginning for the states to
fail. This was discussed in state meetings and conferences I attended
on ASFA the year it passed into law.

Thoughtful adminstrators with years of experience with the feds, met
with senior managers and most importantly, senior workers, nearly all
MSWs, to see if they could make the federal mandates work.

I can see now in retrospect, something I challenged the federal folks
present at those meetings over, that the fix was in. I and many line
workers I knew were furious over the acceptance of policies of service
delivery that could plainly be seen as doomed to fail.

Some state people got it, but they didn't figure on the duplicity of
the feds being nearly the level I had reason to believe, so my
concerns were set aside with promises of cooperation by the feds being
swallowed by the state....under great pressure from the gov and
legislation to make the federal funding through ASFA and Title IV-E
monies work out.

The key component for failure? The ignoring by the feds of the reality
of client behavior and responses to services, a matter of historical
case record...and that is exactly how it has turned out.

The current screaming for more up front services to keep families
together was standard ops in the decades prior to CAPTA. And what it
got was MORE drug abuse and partying while CPS babysat children
through their entire childhoods.

16 states FAILED ON EVERY submeasure of performance.


Yep, just as they were set up to do. If the criteria is to meet a
certain level of needs calculated by a ratio, or number score of
client services delivered, and the FEDS control how the states deliver
those services WHO IS IN CONTROL OF THE FAILURES?

You, of course are never going to answer, but hopefully other readers
will get the point.

It's like this. I'll give you 20 millions dollars if you can jump
fourteen feet high without mechanical assistance...you train for six
months, (Hell, for 20 mil I'd even try) and just prior to the big day,
I come along and mention that I forgot to tell you that I'm breaking
your kneecaps today.

California, which houses 20% of the nation's foster populace, failed

Federal
audits on every performance scale.


Considering the decades long crash of the economy in CA I'm not the
least surprised at the 20% figure. If you've traveled in California,
as I have, and seen places like West LA, South Sacramento (a town I
spent some teen years in), Marysville, East Oakland, and other
sinkholes of poverty and crime, you'd wonder how the number isn't
higher.

You and your cronies are liars who hide from just such facts.

And yes, there are some CPS failures. It is amazing to me the states
have succeeded in, since the passing of ASFA, to do what they
have...reduce the number of abuse and neglect cases.

Now how did they do THAT, yet "fail" to pass federal standards, eh?

Could it be the standards are WRONG?

http://www.familyrightsassociation.com

Bull**** organization that is yet another purveyor of half truths and
lies buried in more layers of BS. And you pimp for them regularly.

The perfect vehicle for abusive dangerous parents to hide behind.

Kane
  #2  
Old May 20th 04, 07:15 AM
Doug
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plant Prattlings....was....Would you trust CPS which has FAILED EVERY STATE

Kane writes:

Would you trust CPS, who while operating under federal guidelines that
are being questioned now, as I have in the past, as being inoperable
for adequate delivery of client services, was able to bring down the
number of abuses and even reduced the number of sexual abuse cases by
40%?


Hi, Kane!

I don't know what other members of this forum have been saying to you, but
they sure have you on the run. I thought you were telling Fern weeks ago
that the reduction in child sexual abuse cases was a statistical
misreporting -- something about them not counting a certain age group,
etc -- and that child sexual abuse was still going on at the same, or
higher, rates but reported by agencies less. Are you now saying that
incidents of child sexual abuse have gone down 40 percent?

They have done what pilots have been made heros for...the safe landing
of a badly disabled aircraft.


That the Pew Commission -- made up of the some of the same child welfare
experts we have been quoting for years -- has proposed reforms that will
bring CPS down to earth is hardly a heroic act of CPS administrators in the
left seat.

With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save children
lives.


Who on earth do you claim has crippled CPS?? Reform measures now in front
of Congress and state legislatures across the country may change CPS
practice if they are passed, but CPS malfunction during the last three
decades was the product of out-of-control agencies will almost no
accountability to anyone.

And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.


No, the idea of the reforms I have posted and those now suggested by the Pew
Commission is to change federal guidelines and mandates. Most especially,
as many of us have written in this forum for years, changing Title IV-E
funding to a capped entitlement that can be used by the states in a manner
they see fit. We have constantly advocated for taking the foster care, poor
kids strings off this funding.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.


In simply attempting to bring back tax dollars to their state, CPS agency's
incarcerated thousands of innocent children in foster care. Since those
precious tax dollars were in the form of Title IV-E foster care funding, the
agencies removed children from innocent parents out of greed.

Why should families trust the expertise of CPS


Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific job
under nearly impossible odds.


The Pew Commission has found that the foster care system is "unquestionably
broken" and that CPS has done far less than a "terrific" job.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and performance.


Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent have
ignored?


Many of those experts have been asking the same questions for many years.
Child and family advocates have said for years that the foster care system
was broken and that the federal funding through Title IV-E should be used
for purposes other than foster care.

Doug


  #3  
Old May 20th 04, 05:38 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plant Prattlings....was....Would you trust CPS which has FAILED EVERY STATE

On Thu, 20 May 2004 02:15:40 -0400, "Doug" wrote:

Kane writes:

Would you trust CPS, who while operating under federal guidelines

that
are being questioned now, as I have in the past, as being

inoperable
for adequate delivery of client services, was able to bring down

the
number of abuses and even reduced the number of sexual abuse cases

by
40%?


Hi, Kane!

I don't know what other members of this forum have been saying to

you, but
they sure have you on the run. I thought you were telling Fern weeks

ago
that the reduction in child sexual abuse cases was a statistical
misreporting -- something about them not counting a certain age

group,
etc -- and that child sexual abuse was still going on at the same, or
higher, rates but reported by agencies less. Are you now saying that
incidents of child sexual abuse have gone down 40 percent?


Nope, still saying reports have.

And that YOU assholes can't have it both ways.......claiming a failure
of CPS but claiming a decrease in sex abuse as a defense for crippling
CPS further for lack of work to do.

Either CPS did or didn't have an effect on the percentage drop...now
which is it you liar?

They have done what pilots have been made heros for...the safe

landing
of a badly disabled aircraft.


That the Pew Commission -- made up of the some of the same child

welfare
experts we have been quoting for years -- has proposed reforms that

will
bring CPS down to earth is hardly a heroic act of CPS administrators

in the
left seat.


You have your seats mixed up. Unless you think the experts are the
copilots.

Stop blaming CPS for what was forced on them.

With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license

for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save children
lives.


Who on earth do you claim has crippled CPS?? Reform measures now in

front
of Congress and state legislatures across the country may change CPS
practice if they are passed, but CPS malfunction during the last

three
decades was the product of out-of-control agencies will almost no
accountability to anyone.


That is a bald faced lie. They struggled the entire time to be
accountable to the feds, and were under constant scrutiny by their own
legislatures. How do you stand yourself?

And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and

inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.


No, the idea of the reforms I have posted and those now suggested by

the Pew
Commission is to change federal guidelines and mandates.


Have you ever seen my suggest otherwise?

Have you ever SPOKEN OUT AGAINST THE ANTI CPS KANT IN THESE NGS? EVER?

The consisted of things like "Kill CPS" and you let it go on. And you
encouraged and patted on the head those that indulged in it.

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?

Most especially,
as many of us have written in this forum for years, changing Title

IV-E
funding to a capped entitlement that can be used by the states in a

manner
they see fit.


Which "Many" is that? List them and site their instances of having
"written" what you claim.

"used by the states in a manner they see fit" eh?

Show me where even YOU have ever said that before. Go ahead. When you
have cited YOU from the archives, show me who else has EVER SAID SUCH
A THING...except possibly myself in other wording.

Come on Douggie. Show us the citations.

We have constantly advocated for taking the foster care, poor
kids strings off this funding.


Appeals to emotion are just another of your gimmicky ploys, Douggie.

The point is you and I agreed long ago that the people on the line had
a better grasp of what was needed and would work, but YOU encouraged
your lying pack of hyenas here in this ng to ignore this.

And no, you, as in the pack of you, have done NO SUCH THING. Some of
you have advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS, or stripping
them of some of their most powerful inhibitors of child abuse...and
the Pew commission spotlighted this very nicely in just a few words.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.


In simply attempting to bring back tax dollars to their state, CPS

agency's
incarcerated thousands of innocent children in foster care.


They did NOT incarcerated. They placed them in out of home care. No
jails involved at all, you liar.

Since those
precious tax dollars were in the form of Title IV-E foster care

funding, the
agencies removed children from innocent parents out of greed.


Bull****. You are a clearly identified liar in other matters, and this
as well. The did so out of ORDERS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
BY LAW.

Why should families trust the expertise of CPS


Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific job
under nearly impossible odds.


The Pew Commission has found that the foster care system is

"unquestionably
broken" and that CPS has done far less than a "terrific" job.


Under federally mandated policy guidelines set by LAW, both federal
and the required state "sister laws."

You are obfuscating yet again.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and performance.


Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have

for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent have
ignored?


Many of those experts have been asking the same questions for many

years.
Child and family advocates have said for years that the foster care

system
was broken and that the federal funding through Title IV-E should be

used
for purposes other than foster care.


And you certainly haven't seen ME disagree. My bitch is with the
constant hammering at CPS WITHOUT BLAMING THE FEDS FOR THE DEBACLE.

If you steal a man's wallet (taxes), then force him to dance to get it
back, he's likely to dance to your tune.

NOW the feds are going to move the funding to thugs of their own
choosing and it will be worse, not better...you know damn well that
there is going to be NO CAPPED FUNDING the states can use at their
discretion.

There will be a MORE tightly controlled federal dispensation of money
and favors and power. Public education is going through this just as
child protection is. It's the same pattern, and it's cronyism, and the
states HAVE NOT, as you lie, simply paid off local vendors....they
can't FIND ENOUGH OF THEM TO TREAT THE DAMAGE DONE TO CHILDREN BY
THEIR OWN PARENTS NOW, YOU ****ING LIAR.


Doug


And you have a great evening, Sir!

Kane
  #4  
Old May 21st 04, 05:31 AM
bobb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plant Prattlings....was....Would you trust CPS which has FAILED EVERY STATE


"Kane" wrote in message
m...
On Thu, 20 May 2004 02:15:40 -0400, "Doug" wrote:

Kane writes:

Would you trust CPS, who while operating under federal guidelines

that
are being questioned now, as I have in the past, as being

inoperable
for adequate delivery of client services, was able to bring down

the
number of abuses and even reduced the number of sexual abuse cases

by
40%?


Hi, Kane!

I don't know what other members of this forum have been saying to

you, but
they sure have you on the run. I thought you were telling Fern weeks

ago
that the reduction in child sexual abuse cases was a statistical
misreporting -- something about them not counting a certain age

group,
etc -- and that child sexual abuse was still going on at the same, or
higher, rates but reported by agencies less. Are you now saying that
incidents of child sexual abuse have gone down 40 percent?


Nope, still saying reports have.

And that YOU assholes can't have it both ways.......claiming a failure
of CPS but claiming a decrease in sex abuse as a defense for crippling
CPS further for lack of work to do.


Sex abuse is one of the smaller catagories but gets all the attention.
Meaningful reforms will be evidenced in other areas.


Either CPS did or didn't have an effect on the percentage drop...now
which is it you liar?

They have done what pilots have been made heros for...the safe

landing
of a badly disabled aircraft.


That the Pew Commission -- made up of the some of the same child

welfare
experts we have been quoting for years -- has proposed reforms that

will
bring CPS down to earth is hardly a heroic act of CPS administrators

in the
left seat.


You have your seats mixed up. Unless you think the experts are the
copilots.

Stop blaming CPS for what was forced on them.


Actually CPS lobbied for current policy. Nothing was forced on them....
except recent court decisions that do not agree.


With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license

for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save children
lives.


Who on earth do you claim has crippled CPS?? Reform measures now in

front
of Congress and state legislatures across the country may change CPS
practice if they are passed, but CPS malfunction during the last

three
decades was the product of out-of-control agencies will almost no
accountability to anyone.


That is a bald faced lie. They struggled the entire time to be
accountable to the feds, and were under constant scrutiny by their own
legislatures. How do you stand yourself?


I repeat.. CPS got what they wanted from the Feds.. it wasn't forced on
them. As far as constant scrutiny.. there was none... all have failed
recent federal reviews. CPS certainly did not fear the feds.. or even the
provision denying states federal funding for failure to conform. CPS has
had free rein.. until public out-cry reached the ears of true professionals,
the courts, and legislators.

bobb


And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and

inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.


No, the idea of the reforms I have posted and those now suggested by

the Pew
Commission is to change federal guidelines and mandates.


Have you ever seen my suggest otherwise?

Have you ever SPOKEN OUT AGAINST THE ANTI CPS KANT IN THESE NGS? EVER?

The consisted of things like "Kill CPS" and you let it go on. And you
encouraged and patted on the head those that indulged in it.

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?

Most especially,
as many of us have written in this forum for years, changing Title

IV-E
funding to a capped entitlement that can be used by the states in a

manner
they see fit.


Which "Many" is that? List them and site their instances of having
"written" what you claim.

"used by the states in a manner they see fit" eh?

Show me where even YOU have ever said that before. Go ahead. When you
have cited YOU from the archives, show me who else has EVER SAID SUCH
A THING...except possibly myself in other wording.

Come on Douggie. Show us the citations.

We have constantly advocated for taking the foster care, poor
kids strings off this funding.


Appeals to emotion are just another of your gimmicky ploys, Douggie.

The point is you and I agreed long ago that the people on the line had
a better grasp of what was needed and would work, but YOU encouraged
your lying pack of hyenas here in this ng to ignore this.

And no, you, as in the pack of you, have done NO SUCH THING. Some of
you have advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS, or stripping
them of some of their most powerful inhibitors of child abuse...and
the Pew commission spotlighted this very nicely in just a few words.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.


In simply attempting to bring back tax dollars to their state, CPS

agency's
incarcerated thousands of innocent children in foster care.


They did NOT incarcerated. They placed them in out of home care. No
jails involved at all, you liar.

Since those
precious tax dollars were in the form of Title IV-E foster care

funding, the
agencies removed children from innocent parents out of greed.


Bull****. You are a clearly identified liar in other matters, and this
as well. The did so out of ORDERS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
BY LAW.

Why should families trust the expertise of CPS

Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific job
under nearly impossible odds.


The Pew Commission has found that the foster care system is

"unquestionably
broken" and that CPS has done far less than a "terrific" job.


Under federally mandated policy guidelines set by LAW, both federal
and the required state "sister laws."

You are obfuscating yet again.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and performance.

Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have

for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent have
ignored?


Many of those experts have been asking the same questions for many

years.
Child and family advocates have said for years that the foster care

system
was broken and that the federal funding through Title IV-E should be

used
for purposes other than foster care.


And you certainly haven't seen ME disagree. My bitch is with the
constant hammering at CPS WITHOUT BLAMING THE FEDS FOR THE DEBACLE.

If you steal a man's wallet (taxes), then force him to dance to get it
back, he's likely to dance to your tune.

NOW the feds are going to move the funding to thugs of their own
choosing and it will be worse, not better...you know damn well that
there is going to be NO CAPPED FUNDING the states can use at their
discretion.

There will be a MORE tightly controlled federal dispensation of money
and favors and power. Public education is going through this just as
child protection is. It's the same pattern, and it's cronyism, and the
states HAVE NOT, as you lie, simply paid off local vendors....they
can't FIND ENOUGH OF THEM TO TREAT THE DAMAGE DONE TO CHILDREN BY
THEIR OWN PARENTS NOW, YOU ****ING LIAR.


Doug


And you have a great evening, Sir!

Kane



  #5  
Old May 21st 04, 06:44 PM
Doug
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plant Prattlings....was....Would you trust CPS which has FAILED EVERY STATE

Kane writes:

And that YOU assholes can't have it both ways.......claiming a failure
of CPS but claiming a decrease in sex abuse as a defense for crippling
CPS further for lack of work to do.


Hi, Kane!

Who wrote all of that? Certainly not me or anyone else on this forum other
than you.

Either CPS did or didn't have an effect on the percentage drop...now
which is it you liar?


As research posted to this newsgroup has reported, there are many possible
reasons for the decrease. Among them, a sizable blacklash from the 20 year
history of false allegations in this area. Citizens and mandated reporters
are discovering that the phamplets handed out by the agencies regarding
"indicators" of sexual abuse are wrong.

You have your seats mixed up. Unless you think the experts are the
copilots.


I have the seats right. The pilot sits in the left seat.

Stop blaming CPS for what was forced on them.


CPS malpractice was carried out at the agencies' direction and not anyone
elses. No one else is to blame.

With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license

for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save children
lives.


Who on earth do you claim has crippled CPS?? Reform measures now in

front
of Congress and state legislatures across the country may change CPS
practice if they are passed, but CPS malfunction during the last

three
decades was the product of out-of-control agencies will almost no
accountability to anyone.


That is a bald faced lie. They struggled the entire time to be
accountable to the feds, and were under constant scrutiny by their own
legislatures. How do you stand yourself?


CPS agencies were not under the scrutiny of state legislatures nor
accountable to the feds. The recent audits were a federal attempt to BEGIN
to hold the agencies accountable.

And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and

inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.


No, the idea of the reforms I have posted and those now suggested by

the Pew
Commission is to change federal guidelines and mandates.


Have you ever seen my suggest otherwise?

Have you ever SPOKEN OUT AGAINST THE ANTI CPS KANT IN THESE NGS? EVER?

The consisted of things like "Kill CPS" and you let it go on. And you
encouraged and patted on the head those that indulged in it.

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?


LOL! No beef? If you have some substantial information that addresses the
issue we are discussing, I would be glad to see it. The silly name calling
suggests you lack that information.

Most especially,
as many of us have written in this forum for years, changing Title

IV-E
funding to a capped entitlement that can be used by the states in a

manner
they see fit.


Which "Many" is that? List them and site their instances of having
"written" what you claim.


I have. Many times. The others may or may not choose to respond regarding
their participation.

"used by the states in a manner they see fit" eh?

Show me where even YOU have ever said that before. Go ahead. When you
have cited YOU from the archives, show me who else has EVER SAID SUCH
A THING...except possibly myself in other wording.



Many times. I am sure the premise was made using a wide array of wording
and phrasing at different times.

Come on Douggie. Show us the citations.

We have constantly advocated for taking the foster care, poor
kids strings off this funding.


Appeals to emotion are just another of your gimmicky ploys, Douggie.

The point is you and I agreed long ago that the people on the line had
a better grasp of what was needed and would work, but YOU encouraged
your lying pack of hyenas here in this ng to ignore this.


Linepeople following current policy and enmeshed in systemic dysfunction are
making grave errors that injure the very children they are mandated to
protect.

And no, you, as in the pack of you, have done NO SUCH THING. Some of
you have advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS, or stripping
them of some of their most powerful inhibitors of child abuse...and
the Pew commission spotlighted this very nicely in just a few words.


I have not advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS. What sort of
"powerful inhibitors" are you talking about? What specific actions do you
put in that category? Without knowing what you are addressing, I have no
way of knowing if I advocated for taking them away or not.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.


In simply attempting to bring back tax dollars to their state, CPS

agency's
incarcerated thousands of innocent children in foster care.


They did NOT incarcerated. They placed them in out of home care. No
jails involved at all, you liar.


Children with liberty interests in living peacefully with their families are
being forcibly removed from their homes under the color of law and forcibly
confined in state custody. More than 74% of them are confined with
strangers in various types of structures.

Since those
precious tax dollars were in the form of Title IV-E foster care

funding, the
agencies removed children from innocent parents out of greed.


Bull****. You are a clearly identified liar in other matters, and this
as well. The did so out of ORDERS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
BY LAW.


You are absolutely and categorically incorrect. These children were removed
by state child protective agencies on their own initiative with the
motivation to collect federal funding. The federal government did NOT order
these agencies to do it. The feds set the criteria for their money. Since
that criteria provides an incentive to incarcerate poor children, they are
accountable. But that state agencies chose to remove children to get access
to that money is appalling.

Why should families trust the expertise of CPS

Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific job
under nearly impossible odds.


The Pew Commission has found that the foster care system is

"unquestionably
broken" and that CPS has done far less than a "terrific" job.


Under federally mandated policy guidelines set by LAW, both federal
and the required state "sister laws."


The state child protection agencies bear responsibility for their
malpractice. The Nazi defense, "I was ordered to do it" won't work for
personnel of these agencies. The workers within these agencies are
accountable for their own actions.

You are obfuscating yet again.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and performance.

Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have

for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent have
ignored?


Many of those experts have been asking the same questions for many

years.
Child and family advocates have said for years that the foster care

system
was broken and that the federal funding through Title IV-E should be

used
for purposes other than foster care.


And you certainly haven't seen ME disagree. My bitch is with the
constant hammering at CPS WITHOUT BLAMING THE FEDS FOR THE DEBACLE.

If you steal a man's wallet (taxes), then force him to dance to get it
back, he's likely to dance to your tune.


If he dances to the tune in violation of his ethics and moral convictions,
just to get at the money, he alone must face the music. He is responsible.
It is simply inhumane to remove children from their parents, inflicting
tremendous emotional damage, for a buck. The feds are responsible to
providing the temptation, but the state workers are solely responsible for
yeilding to the temptation by irreparably injuring the very children they
were mandated to protect. For the damage they have done to children, the
agencies are fully responsible.


NOW the feds are going to move the funding to thugs of their own
choosing and it will be worse, not better...you know damn well that
there is going to be NO CAPPED FUNDING the states can use at their
discretion.


Thugs are thugs, whoever pays them. In this thread, we have been talking
about holding the current thugs accountable for the damage they have already
done to children. You argue that we should worry about different thugs paid
by the feds without considering the damage already done by the state thugs.

There will be a MORE tightly controlled federal dispensation of money
and favors and power. Public education is going through this just as
child protection is. It's the same pattern, and it's cronyism, and the
states HAVE NOT, as you lie, simply paid off local vendors....they
can't FIND ENOUGH OF THEM TO TREAT THE DAMAGE DONE TO CHILDREN BY
THEIR OWN PARENTS NOW, YOU ****ING LIAR.


The state child protection agencies currently pay thousands of local
vendors -- therapists, consultants, advisors, GAL's, group home operators,
caseworkers, parenting teachers, counselors, lawyers, assorted species of
jacklegs, partridges and the pear trees in which they roost.

Have a wonderful day, sir! You are an adult, so you can be relatively
confident that you can spend it at home with those you love.

Doug


  #6  
Old May 21st 04, 11:36 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plant Prattlings....was....Would you trust CPS which has FAILED EVERY STATE

On Thu, 20 May 2004 23:31:02 -0500, "bobb"
wrote:


"Kane" wrote in message
om...
On Thu, 20 May 2004 02:15:40 -0400, "Doug"

wrote:

Kane writes:

Would you trust CPS, who while operating under federal

guidelines
that
are being questioned now, as I have in the past, as being

inoperable
for adequate delivery of client services, was able to bring down

the
number of abuses and even reduced the number of sexual abuse

cases
by
40%?

Hi, Kane!

I don't know what other members of this forum have been saying to

you, but
they sure have you on the run. I thought you were telling Fern

weeks
ago
that the reduction in child sexual abuse cases was a statistical
misreporting -- something about them not counting a certain age

group,
etc -- and that child sexual abuse was still going on at the same,

or
higher, rates but reported by agencies less. Are you now saying

that
incidents of child sexual abuse have gone down 40 percent?


Nope, still saying reports have.

And that YOU assholes can't have it both ways.......claiming a

failure
of CPS but claiming a decrease in sex abuse as a defense for

crippling
CPS further for lack of work to do.


Sex abuse is one of the smaller catagories but gets all the

attention.

Crock, as usual. All abuse and neglect gets "attention." YOU give sex
abuse too much attention, bobbarino.

Meaningful reforms will be evidenced in other areas.


But not in sex abuse? Like it's gone? A reduction isn't an
eradication.


Either CPS did or didn't have an effect on the percentage

drop...now
which is it you liar?

They have done what pilots have been made heros for...the safe

landing
of a badly disabled aircraft.

That the Pew Commission -- made up of the some of the same child

welfare
experts we have been quoting for years -- has proposed reforms

that
will
bring CPS down to earth is hardly a heroic act of CPS

administrators
in the
left seat.


You have your seats mixed up. Unless you think the experts are the
copilots.

Stop blaming CPS for what was forced on them.


Actually CPS lobbied for current policy.


Crock. They simply asked to be funded for the mandates coming down
from the feds, in response to the failures of CAPTA. ASFA was what
they got, and you forget I was there.

What was asked for, and I remember it well, and agreed with the
workers and administrators input......IS EXACTLY WHAT IS BEING
PROPOSED NOW..............MORE upfront services to families to bring
out reunification.

The assholes, many who spoke about human beings LIKE YOU DO YOU
ASSHOLE, insisted that what would make for unification was the club of
shortening the timelines and making good on the threats to remove
their children.

It was neanderthal then and was fought by a great many people in the
lower ranks. The admin simply patted them on the head, and outspoken
citizens such as myself, and insured us that service delivery of up
front support for families would increase.....they even gave special
names to little demonstration programs....AND FAILED TO FUND THEM
ADUQUATELY.....

Nothing was forced on them....
except recent court decisions that do not agree.


Crock o'shiit as usual from you. YOU don't remember the facts of the
matter at all. There were two factions, and I was asked to shut up by
the other side, or my state might not get much of anything.

With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license

for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save

children
lives.

Who on earth do you claim has crippled CPS?? Reform measures now

in
front
of Congress and state legislatures across the country may change

CPS
practice if they are passed, but CPS malfunction during the last

three
decades was the product of out-of-control agencies will almost no
accountability to anyone.


That is a bald faced lie. They struggled the entire time to be
accountable to the feds, and were under constant scrutiny by their

own
legislatures. How do you stand yourself?


I repeat.. CPS got what they wanted from the Feds.. it wasn't forced

on
them.


You are just one more of the stupid thugs that claim that we were not
there or if there are lying the asses off about what happened.

As far as constant scrutiny.. there was none... all have failed
recent federal reviews.


Failed on seven points, often by a hairsbredth, ignoring all the other
demanding requirements of client service, and surveyed by stacking the
deck on the means of choosing cases to audit.

I said before, and I'll say it again. The fix was in from the
beginning. The states were meant to fail.

CPS certainly did not fear the feds..


You stupid asshole. I went to mixed pubic agency, private agency (like
Casey Foundation, Children's Defense Fund, etc.) and citizens meetings
with up to 500 people at them were the MAJOR TOPIC WAS FEAR OF THE
FEDS AND OUTCOMES EXACTLY LIKE THIS.

We were polite in the meeting halls, but you should have seen us in
the parking lot and on the streets. We were screaming bloody murder at
the feds coming out of the meetings after us, all smug having conned
everyone...well, almost everyone.

or even the
provision denying states federal funding for failure to conform.


Look, Dummy. I you take a look at the data for child abuse over the
teim of ASFA, you will see a steady, but slow reduction, with a few
ups and downs, but over all, DOWNS, and in some areas dramatic.

To do that with the overloads...........that went against
predictions.....no one could foresee the immense impact of the shift
to meth, and the hugh increase in heroin addiction....and the demands
of the federal mandate that showed early on they were nearly
impossible to meet.....IS AN IMMENSE VICTORY FOR CPS...but of course
will be ignored.

Ever ski competitively?

It's like going for the Giant Slalom, making absolutely record winning
time, and lossing because of a few points taken off for minor
penalties.

CPS has
had free rein..


R R R R R .........what a Douggie suckin' asshole you are.

That's the propaganda claim. I've seen legislative hearings for years
with CPS at the table having to explain their actions. You dipwad. You
think you are in exclusive high toned company with Douggie and
crew.....

They and he are a pack of lying twits. Disgusting to anyone that has
been close to this as I have since 1976.

until public out-cry reached the ears of true professionals,
the courts, and legislators.


Crock O'**** as usual.

I'm so sick of you dumbass and vicious lying twits.

How's 14 years ago suit you, asshole:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:W...=en&i e=UTF-8

The one refers to dates back into the '80's.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:c...=en&i e=UTF-8

What I can't supply you is material from news media "morgues" as their
archives back to those times require a paid subscription in many
instance, but I well recall news articles as far back as 1980, when I
did a practicum with CPS. I dreaded it and only did it because my
faculty advisor insisted (she was an old retired private child welfare
agency worker) that I make it my first.

In other words my head was full of the nonsense of the public outcries
about abuses of CPS, WHICH WHEN I WAS A STUDENT INTERN I DID NOT
FIND....and I ran an anthropological field study on the largest agency
office in my state at the time (which of course they were not privy
too...as it kills a flied study if you tell the subjects you are
observing them).

I managed to maintain contact for 9 months in support of my minor.

What I found was large group of hard working, road weary, and often
shell shocked folks dealing with unbelievable barriers and
extraordinary conditions...we are talking horrors here....and
caseloads that by 1990 were in the 80's and more per worker.

YOU ****ERS ARE LIARS OR IGNORANT BABBLING CRETINS.

I have to ask myself why you chose to comment on so few of the points
I bought up.

All that comes to mind is that you are either too stupid to respond to
the important ones, or you are cherry picking under the guidance of
the asswipe that posts here as Doug.

bobb


Kane




And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and

inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.

No, the idea of the reforms I have posted and those now suggested

by
the Pew
Commission is to change federal guidelines and mandates.


Have you ever seen my suggest otherwise?

Have you ever SPOKEN OUT AGAINST THE ANTI CPS KANT IN THESE NGS?

EVER?

The consisted of things like "Kill CPS" and you let it go on. And

you
encouraged and patted on the head those that indulged in it.

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?

Most especially,
as many of us have written in this forum for years, changing Title

IV-E
funding to a capped entitlement that can be used by the states in

a
manner
they see fit.


Which "Many" is that? List them and site their instances of having
"written" what you claim.

"used by the states in a manner they see fit" eh?

Show me where even YOU have ever said that before. Go ahead. When

you
have cited YOU from the archives, show me who else has EVER SAID

SUCH
A THING...except possibly myself in other wording.

Come on Douggie. Show us the citations.

We have constantly advocated for taking the foster care, poor
kids strings off this funding.


Appeals to emotion are just another of your gimmicky ploys,

Douggie.

The point is you and I agreed long ago that the people on the line

had
a better grasp of what was needed and would work, but YOU

encouraged
your lying pack of hyenas here in this ng to ignore this.

And no, you, as in the pack of you, have done NO SUCH THING. Some

of
you have advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS, or

stripping
them of some of their most powerful inhibitors of child abuse...and
the Pew commission spotlighted this very nicely in just a few

words.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO

MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.

In simply attempting to bring back tax dollars to their state, CPS

agency's
incarcerated thousands of innocent children in foster care.


They did NOT incarcerated. They placed them in out of home care. No
jails involved at all, you liar.

Since those
precious tax dollars were in the form of Title IV-E foster care

funding, the
agencies removed children from innocent parents out of greed.


Bull****. You are a clearly identified liar in other matters, and

this
as well. The did so out of ORDERS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
BY LAW.

Why should families trust the expertise of CPS

Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even

the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific

job
under nearly impossible odds.

The Pew Commission has found that the foster care system is

"unquestionably
broken" and that CPS has done far less than a "terrific" job.


Under federally mandated policy guidelines set by LAW, both federal
and the required state "sister laws."

You are obfuscating yet again.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and

performance.

Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have

for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent

have
ignored?

Many of those experts have been asking the same questions for many

years.
Child and family advocates have said for years that the foster

care
system
was broken and that the federal funding through Title IV-E should

be
used
for purposes other than foster care.


And you certainly haven't seen ME disagree. My bitch is with the
constant hammering at CPS WITHOUT BLAMING THE FEDS FOR THE DEBACLE.

If you steal a man's wallet (taxes), then force him to dance to get

it
back, he's likely to dance to your tune.

NOW the feds are going to move the funding to thugs of their own
choosing and it will be worse, not better...you know damn well that
there is going to be NO CAPPED FUNDING the states can use at their
discretion.

There will be a MORE tightly controlled federal dispensation of

money
and favors and power. Public education is going through this just

as
child protection is. It's the same pattern, and it's cronyism, and

the
states HAVE NOT, as you lie, simply paid off local vendors....they
can't FIND ENOUGH OF THEM TO TREAT THE DAMAGE DONE TO CHILDREN BY
THEIR OWN PARENTS NOW, YOU ****ING LIAR.


Doug


And you have a great evening, Sir!

Kane


  #7  
Old May 22nd 04, 01:14 AM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plant Prattlings....was....Would you trust CPS which has FAILED EVERY STATE

"Doug" wrote in message ...
Kane writes:

And that YOU assholes can't have it both ways.......claiming a failure
of CPS but claiming a decrease in sex abuse as a defense for crippling
CPS further for lack of work to do.


Hi, Kane!

Who wrote all of that? Certainly not me or anyone else on this forum other
than you.


Your favorite patronized Plant, Douggie. Try reading those whose asses
you pat.

Either CPS did or didn't have an effect on the percentage drop...now
which is it you liar?


As research posted to this newsgroup has reported, there are many possible
reasons for the decrease. Among them, a sizable blacklash from the 20 year
history of false allegations in this area. Citizens and mandated reporters
are discovering that the phamplets handed out by the agencies regarding
"indicators" of sexual abuse are wrong.


Well, I've read the pamphlets and discussed them with psychatrists and
psychologists that treat both offenders and victims. YOU are wrong,
nummy.

What you focus on, in your lying way, and take advantage of the
ignorant with is ignoring that line about "patters of behavior," in
the many single behaviors don't alone constitute proof of abuse, but
when they mount up......

You make me sick you ****.

You have your seats mixed up. Unless you think the experts are the
copilots.


I have the seats right. The pilot sits in the left seat.


I know where the pilot sits, asshole. AND THE STATE IS NOT THE PILOT,
not when they are being directed by the feds, and following federal
law to the point of having to pass sister laws in support of the
federal laws.

Stop being a wiseass. You knew exactly what I meant.

Stop blaming CPS for what was forced on them.


CPS malpractice was carried out at the agencies' direction and not anyone
elses. No one else is to blame.


CPS managed to still maintain a drop or holding the line in child
abuse and neglect and they were NOT acting soley under their own
dirctions, you ****ing liar.

How can anyone miss that they have for years been under threats by the
feds all over the US? Some have even been taken over by the courts and
I'M NOT HEARING OF GREAT FEATS OF IMPROVEMENT.

The Feds set up a carrot and concealed the stick, then waved it
around, now they are applying it....and the fix was in from the start
for CPS to fail.

Are you going to blame them for not being psysic?

the 90' marked one of he bleakest periods in the drug scene, where
everyone and their brother was setting up meth labs in their kitchen
or basement. Drug use increased hugely in those years. And children's
parents were drug users and makers.

With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license

for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save children
lives.

Who on earth do you claim has crippled CPS?? Reform measures now in

front
of Congress and state legislatures across the country may change CPS
practice if they are passed, but CPS malfunction during the last

three
decades was the product of out-of-control agencies will almost no
accountability to anyone.


That is a bald faced lie. They struggled the entire time to be
accountable to the feds, and were under constant scrutiny by their own
legislatures. How do you stand yourself?


CPS agencies were not under the scrutiny of state legislatures nor
accountable to the feds.


R R R R ....I just posted to the other patronized twit of yours proof
that that is not true. Hell, I went to state legislative hearings when
CPS was involved
clear back to 1980. By the nineties it was damn near a monthy affair
while they were in session.

The recent audits were a federal attempt to BEGIN
to hold the agencies accountable.


You have these assholes here well trained to ignore your lies, but I'm
not among them. You are one sick ****, Doug....a social worker that
lies about child welfare as a regular practice.

If they haven't been under scrutiny for many years please explain
these:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...lfare&as_qdr=y

This goes back to 1990....l4 ****in' years ago, asshole:

"As required in the Adoption and Safe Families Act, the Department has
developed, in consultation with the field, an initial list of results
measures that can be used to gauge State performance in ensuring child
safety and permanence. The list has been published for comment in the
Federal Register, and we are now reviewing input received from almost
two-thirds of the states, at least 12 organizations, a number of
researchers, several members of Congress, and other interested
individuals.

The Department has conducted 24 pilot tests of an outcomes-based
monitoring system and has published proposed regulations that draw
substantially on the lessons from those pilots. We currently are
reviewing public comments on the regulations and intend to publish a
final rule before the end of this year.
As a result of federal financial assistance, technical support, and
clear accountability that includes phased-in penalties, states are now
collecting and able to report much more timely and accurate data on
foster care and adoptions. Reporting on child abuse and neglect also
has improved considerably, as a result of both financial and technical
assistance. "

What do you think "consultation with the field" means? They had coffee
together once in 14 years?

I've gone to meetings with both state and feds CALLING CPS ON THE
CARPET TO EXPLAIN VARIOUS POLICY AND PRACTICE ISSUES SINCE 1990. YOU
are a liar.

Next one 8 years ago...look at the title:

"Testimony on Safety and Well-Being of Abused & Neglected Children by
Olivia A. Golden
Acting Assistant Secretary for Children and Families
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

Before the Senate Committee on Labor and Human Resources
November 20, 1996"

What do you think they are talking about and how did they get the
information, by NOT OVERSEEING CPS?

http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t961120a.html go ahead, take a look,
liar.

Let folks read a few things like the following and you and they will
see why CPS is "failing," and in many instances only by a hair's
breadth on a few of the 7 criteria...ignoring of course all the OTHER
measures, like the their holding the line as abuse and they
horrendousness of the KINDS of abuse when up...even bringing some of
it down over the years.

http://www.rand.org/publications/CF/CF123/burnam/

And here's a 1998 complaint petition in Texas....so no one is
overseeing CPS eh? This one was filed with ...guess who.....the state
****ing legislature of Texas and the governor....one of those you
claim provided no oversight for accountability.

http://www.co.travis.tx.us/petition/summary.asp

A Petition in Behalf of the
Forsaken Children of Texas to the
Governor and the 76th Legislature
Executive Summary
October 14, 1998
Judge F. Scott McCown

This petition is about investigations by the Texas Child Protective
Service of allegations of child abuse and neglect. This petition will
show that due to a lack of resources:

"CPS classifies too few calls about children as reports of abuse or
neglect.
Of those calls classified as reports, CPS assigns too few for
investigation and completes the assigned investigations too slowly.
Of those investigations completed, CPS confirms too few cases.
Of those cases confirmed, CPS removes too few victims.
This executive summary is written to tempt you to read the petition"

I can tell you, Doug, you are wearing me down. I'm getting so tired of
fielding your lies and pointing them out. I'm tired of you avoiding
the larger issues I bring up and peeling off some inconsequential
misuse of a term or a claim that misses the center of the target by an
inch, BUT IS STILL ON TARGET...just like this issue, that I could
puke.

You make me sick you lying ****.
And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and

inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.

No, the idea of the reforms I have posted and those now suggested by

the Pew
Commission is to change federal guidelines and mandates.


Have you ever seen my suggest otherwise?

Have you ever SPOKEN OUT AGAINST THE ANTI CPS KANT IN THESE NGS? EVER?

The consisted of things like "Kill CPS" and you let it go on. And you
encouraged and patted on the head those that indulged in it.

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?


LOL! No beef?


You want me to cite all the lying **** filled destroy CPS posts on
this very newsgroup and then ALL OF YOURS showing you pat these ****s
on the head and congratulate them for posting biased media reports,
and ignoring all the good CPS does do?

Go **** yourself.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...ctive-services

Here, read them all yourself, then post a single post of yours
decrying these viscious attacks and lies. Show me where you have
challenged them. I remember one or two little "oh oh bobb, your
figures are off by a bit" congratulatory bits of pap from you and
that's it.


If you have some substantial information that addresses the
issue we are discussing, I would be glad to see it. The silly name calling
suggests you lack that information.


NO, the name calling isn't silly in the least. It identifies what you
are clearly. And the disgust I hold for a professional in the field
that would lie and mislead to the injury of children and the risk of
families. **** you, asshole.

As for the "substantial information" I've used many of the same
sources YOU have during our exchanges, as well as others (see this and
other recent posts), and fought your twisted lying interpretations
again and again.

YOur claim that I'm not supply ing substantial information is AN
EXPOSURE OF YOUR LIES RIGHT IN THIS POST, AND PRIOR ONES I've replied
to you in.

As I said, you are a ****ing liar. I'm am sick to death of knowing
someone like you has an MSW and is a member.

Most especially,
as many of us have written in this forum for years, changing Title

IV-E
funding to a capped entitlement that can be used by the states in a

manner
they see fit.


Which "Many" is that? List them and site their instances of having
"written" what you claim.


I have. Many times.


Cite them. Should be easy to find, or don't you google? Want me to
look for them for you? ... or could it be that I have?

The others may or may not choose to respond regarding
their participation.


Baaaawwwwk, baaaaaawk baaaaawk, chicken****.

You made a claim. Now you won't back it up.

"many times" eh? Why can't I find them?

"used by the states in a manner they see fit" eh?

Show me where even YOU have ever said that before. Go ahead. When you
have cited YOU from the archives, show me who else has EVER SAID SUCH
A THING...except possibly myself in other wording.



Many times. I am sure the premise was made using a wide array of wording
and phrasing at different times.


R R R R............Do you know the poster I refer to as Droany? That's
a favorite style of dodge of his. It's called "weaseling."

I'm sure you are sure, but I'm sure you haven't answered my question.
Where are they, in any form? Show me.

Come on Douggie. Show us the citations.


R R R R

We have constantly advocated for taking the foster care, poor
kids strings off this funding.


Appeals to emotion are just another of your gimmicky ploys, Douggie.

The point is you and I agreed long ago that the people on the line had
a better grasp of what was needed and would work, but YOU encouraged
your lying pack of hyenas here in this ng to ignore this.


Linepeople following current policy and enmeshed in systemic dysfunction are
making grave errors that injure the very children they are mandated to
protect.


Propaganda. There is no world in which mistakes are not made, and
people injured. This is the infamous strawman. How could anyone
disagree with you.

Line people following ANY policy are ENMESHED in systematic
dysfunction because NO system is perfect or even much better than
stumbling along. Especially CPS with the crippling they have always
worked under.

Child abuse and neglect are ugly nasty horrible things to
witness...and the public wants it fixed without having to witness it.
They want it done fast and they want it done cheap and they don't want
to to see it or pay for it.

That attitude provides, created really, a perfect whipping boy for
politically ambitious twits (that's why I rag you so much....you
babble and rant and bull**** just like others I've seen and challenged
over the years...as a citizen).

Yah know how people are annoyed by and stereotype garbage men...?
Well, this is worse, but the same thing.

A dirty job no one wants to do but they want to criticize those that
do it and underpay them to boot.

And no, you, as in the pack of you, have done NO SUCH THING. Some of
you have advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS, or stripping
them of some of their most powerful inhibitors of child abuse...and
the Pew commission spotlighted this very nicely in just a few words.


I have not advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS.


You have offered, as an argument, the opinions of those who say,
dismantal and begin over with a new model?

You didn't tell me that you wanted a police function to take over all
investigation and enforcement work?

Look familiar?

"I have supported separate reform packages authored by social workers
Lela
Costin, Leroy Pelton, Duncan Lindsey, Phillip Schwartz, Howard Karger,
Richard Gelles, Susan Orr, and others. Each of these authors have
written
reform packages that call for police to assume the role of
investigating
child abuse and neglect. Dr. Pelton, in an exhaustive work in 1989;
Dr.
Lindsey in an equally lengthy book in 1993; Dr. Costin, et al in 1996,
Susan
Orr in 1998, Richard Gelles in 2000 and Dr. Swartz in 2001."

If all that is left, smartass, is CPS doing social work with volunary
clients, they will be doing nothing as all the parents will be in
jail. Do you really think the levels of abuse are going to diminish?

Children will NOT go back to their parents. You are encouraging what
will become a damn bloodbath. I don't know where you got those stats
you offerred, or opinions, that CPS work to reunite families wasn't
working, but you are full of ****. Even under that heavy load imposed
by ASFA with the states HAVING to devote money to enforcement in an
attempt to comply with federal guildelinse, the little pilot and
demonstration projects for family unity were working.

I think THAT was one of your more annoying lies.

Dredge that up again for us. I'm going to make some calls to the
researchers that came up with that crock.

Addionally asshole, and I call that while I think of about this, more
and more children will suffer more and more before their parents reach
the level the police CAN intervene, and it will be the hospital or
morgue for the children, jail for their parents........who did NOT ask
for help because bad parents and fool druggies don't ASK FOR
HELP......

What sort of
"powerful inhibitors" are you talking about? What specific actions do you
put in that category? Without knowing what you are addressing, I have no
way of knowing if I advocated for taking them away or not.


The threat of loss of their children would qualify. Don't you think?

And that threat goes away, under what you advocate and I just posted,
UNTIL THE CHILD IS DEAD OR SO INJURED THEY MIGHT AS WELL BE.

We see enough of that already, you evil evil little man.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.

In simply attempting to bring back tax dollars to their state, CPS

agency's
incarcerated thousands of innocent children in foster care.


They did NOT incarcerated. They placed them in out of home care. No
jails involved at all, you liar.


Children with liberty interests in living peacefully with their families are
being forcibly removed from their homes under the color of law and forcibly
confined in state custody.


Under color of law MEANS BY LEGAL MEANS...you little evil twit.

"forcibly confined" R R R R .... They are FORCIBLY CONFINED then with
their parents. Anyone that is their caregiver is FORCIBLY confining
them, even the day care centers and public schools. What an evil
******* you are.

More than 74% of them are confined with
strangers in various types of structures.


Gee, what happend to "incarcerated?"

IN some states as many as 50% are with relatives, some of whom
themselves kill or injure them. Stop the ****ing lies by misleading
and misdirection.

Homes, treatment centers for their parent induced psychological
illnesses, and for some older ones, sadly, youth incarceration
centers...the ONLY ONE YOU ARE CORRECT ABOUT....but they are
ajudicated as delinquent youth.

Basically you are the same kind of mindless twit that bobb is. You
just are better educated hence better able to conceal your sickness
and bigotry.

Since those
precious tax dollars were in the form of Title IV-E foster care

funding, the
agencies removed children from innocent parents out of greed.


Bull****. You are a clearly identified liar in other matters, and this
as well. The did so out of ORDERS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
BY LAW.


You are absolutely and categorically incorrect. These children were removed
by state child protective agencies on their own initiative with the
motivation to collect federal funding.


Prove it.

If so why are ANY OF THEM RETURNED TO THEIR PARENTS. What a liar.

The federal government did NOT order
these agencies to do it.


Nope. They ordered them to respond to child abuse complaints. And the
state must do so. It's the law.

The feds set the criteria for their money. Since
that criteria provides an incentive to incarcerate poor children, they are
accountable.


More poor children are in circumstances that amount to neglect and
abuse. Nothing remarkable in that. Nor in that the feds and the states
recognize it. Claims they are targetted just because they are poor is
bull****.

But that state agencies chose to remove children to get access
to that money is appalling.


What's appalling is that you lie about it.

Why should families trust the expertise of CPS

Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific job
under nearly impossible odds.

The Pew Commission has found that the foster care system is

"unquestionably
broken" and that CPS has done far less than a "terrific" job.


Under federally mandated policy guidelines set by LAW, both federal
and the required state "sister laws."


The state child protection agencies bear responsibility for their
malpractice.


No question about it. Now show "malpractice" in relation to law and
standard child welfare practice. You may find such information in law
books and in the texts of well known schools of social work.

The Nazi defense, "I was ordered to do it" won't work for
personnel of these agencies.


And that is not the defense, but that is not a valid claim. Those that
break the law are NOT allowed to use it validly. You have seen reports
in this ng of such going to jail, losing jobs, being demoted and other
penalties.

And the agencies are NOT breaking any laws, and you know it. Not
state, not federal. So who is going to be on this world court to try
CPS personnel for their gestapo like behavior, eh?

You and your cronies are so full of ****.

This hyperbolic ranting is right out of the overheated steamy rhetoric
of the websites and pronouncement of little crazy ass anti CPS anti
Government nutsos I can't believe and educated man would fall for that
****...though I've seen ego empaired crackpost with good educations go
down to it before.

The workers within these agencies are
accountable for their own actions.


As I said, you run this crap constantly. I know they are. I've been a
party to them having to be accountable...and they were. Some fired,
some demoted, some fired and barred for state employment for life. So
don't give me that bull****.

They ARE NOT resonsible for the machinations of the Feds or the State.

If so, and you are telling the truth, then YOU ARE HEADED FOR A FALL.
You work for the state, do you not?

Guilt by association. I should have expected that from you.


You are obfuscating yet again.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and performance.

Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have

for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent have
ignored?

Many of those experts have been asking the same questions for many

years.
Child and family advocates have said for years that the foster care

system
was broken and that the federal funding through Title IV-E should be

used
for purposes other than foster care.


And you certainly haven't seen ME disagree. My bitch is with the
constant hammering at CPS WITHOUT BLAMING THE FEDS FOR THE DEBACLE.

If you steal a man's wallet (taxes), then force him to dance to get it
back, he's likely to dance to your tune.


If he dances to the tune in violation of his ethics and moral convictions,
just to get at the money, he alone must face the music.


You, skuzzball, are talking about the public. Who do you think I was
referring to?

He is responsible.


Yes, the public is. So YOU want the public to hang the workers they
paid and directed by the laws passed. What a lowlife you are.

It is simply inhumane to remove children from their parents, inflicting
tremendous emotional damage, for a buck.


That is not why they are removed. That's the big lie tactic, and you
make yourself known as a liar by spouting it. Nearly everyone believes
it...nearly that is, unless they have held CPS under the kind of
careful scrutiny I have for many years.

This may not be the best way to run CPS but it is the way that
evolved. The ONLY way the feds offerred to fund child protection.

Now you want the feds to fix it? R R R R ....and you think they'll do
better this time around. The states should be suing the feds for
misrepresentation and taking back those billions in tax dollars.
That's the only way it can happen ethically. MORE of CAPTA followed by
ASFA followed now by Plan C, is not going to fix it and if you had a
****ing brain in your stupid little pointy head you'd know it.

Did you manage to take even ONE quarter of policital sciense? Get your
text out, dust it off and study.

The feds are responsible to
providing the temptation,


"TEMPTATION?" For **** sakes man, it was A THREAT...IT WAS THE GUN TO
THE HEAD. If you want this money you WILL dance to our tune was what
it was. I sat through hour after hour of conferences where, in
essence, that WAS the bottom line when the states were asking for MORE
support for reunification and upfront family support money.

YOU ****ING LIAR. Or weren't you around for those times?

but the state workers are solely responsible for
yeilding to the temptation by irreparably injuring the very children they
were mandated to protect.


If that was what they were doing in numbers that reflected anything
more than the expected statistical human error in systems I'd agree
with you. But I know it's not so.

The children coming into the system ARE NOT universally or even in the
majority, unharmed by parents. Many that return home are injured for
life by PARENTS, but the state has to return them because of legal and
policy limitations.

For the damage they have done to children, the
agencies are fully responsible.


Yep, you just lie about the numbers. And lots of suckers here eat it
up.


NOW the feds are going to move the funding to thugs of their own
choosing and it will be worse, not better...you know damn well that
there is going to be NO CAPPED FUNDING the states can use at their
discretion.


Thugs are thugs, whoever pays them. In this thread, we have been talking
about holding the current thugs accountable for the damage they have already
done to children. You argue that we should worry about different thugs paid
by the feds without considering the damage already done by the state thugs.


No such argument has been made by me. I'm perfectly willing to have
ANY AND ALL thugs worried about and stopped. The problem is that you
are lying.

It's the old "three times and eight time more likely" crappola. You
are comparing populations with extremely different variables and
making claims that are not supportable.

And everybody wants a ride. The political ambition slavering hyenas
are running rampant....you aren't winning on truth, you are winning on
lies because of the stupidity, ignorance, and cupidity of such as
those.

There will be a MORE tightly controlled federal dispensation of money
and favors and power. Public education is going through this just as
child protection is. It's the same pattern, and it's cronyism, and the
states HAVE NOT, as you lie, simply paid off local vendors....they
can't FIND ENOUGH OF THEM TO TREAT THE DAMAGE DONE TO CHILDREN BY
THEIR OWN PARENTS NOW, YOU ****ING LIAR.


The state child protection agencies currently pay thousands of local
vendors -- therapists, consultants, advisors, GAL's, group home operators,
caseworkers, parenting teachers, counselors, lawyers,


As required by law. By the feds in fact. And when one sees what
children have suffered that come into the system, it's no surprise
these are needed.

assorted species of
jacklegs, partridges and the pear trees in which they roost.


Same old ****, Douggie the Magnificent.

Personally if there are going to be vendors, and there will always be
considering the damage to children from their parental units, I want
them controlled locally.........not remotely by the feds using their
asskissing thugs in suits.

Have a wonderful day, sir! You are an adult, so you can be relatively
confident that you can spend it at home with those you love.


If I were a child and my parents were abusing and neglecting me would
YOU show up at my door in time, to get me out, give me some medical
and psychological therapy, get my parents squared away so I could come
home one day, or would you wait for it to get serious enough the cops
had to be called.....when I was badly injured and disabled for life or
dead?

You are creep.


Doug


Kane
  #8  
Old May 22nd 04, 12:01 PM
Doug
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plant Prattlings....was....Would you trust CPS which has FAILED EVERY STATE

Kane writes:

How can anyone miss that they have for years been under threats by the
feds all over the US? Some have even been taken over by the courts and
I'M NOT HEARING OF GREAT FEATS OF IMPROVEMENT.


Hi, Kane!

Yes, increasingly, federal courts are taking over foster care systems
throughout the country because of the agency's consistent refusal to
consider reforming on their own. The results have been mixed.

The Feds set up a carrot and concealed the stick, then waved it
around, now they are applying it....and the fix was in from the start
for CPS to fail.


What sort of fix? What was the carrot? What is the stick?

the 90' marked one of he bleakest periods in the drug scene, where
everyone and their brother was setting up meth labs in their kitchen
or basement. Drug use increased hugely in those years. And children's
parents were drug users and makers.


Perhaps one of the problems during that period was that state workers may
have actually assumed that "everybody and their brother" was manufactoring
methamphetamine. Such a generalization and contempt prior to investigation
could have made it very tough for the children of everyone and their
brother.

The Department has conducted 24 pilot tests of an outcomes-based
monitoring system and has published proposed regulations that draw
substantially on the lessons from those pilots. We currently are
reviewing public comments on the regulations and intend to publish a
final rule before the end of this year.
As a result of federal financial assistance, technical support, and
clear accountability that includes phased-in penalties, states are now
collecting and able to report much more timely and accurate data on
foster care and adoptions. Reporting on child abuse and neglect also
has improved considerably, as a result of both financial and technical
assistance. "

What do you think "consultation with the field" means? They had coffee
together once in 14 years?


What you cut and pasted is a discussion about how the feds sought out state
input in designing the criteria for the audits that were conducted the past
three years. It took that long from theory to practice. The process, as
your cut and paste explains, was to go to the states for input and then
print proposed quidelines in the Federal Register. States further commented
on the published criteria, and the feds then went back to draft revisions,
which were again published in the Federal Register.

Let folks read a few things like the following and you and they will
see why CPS is "failing," and in many instances only by a hair's
breadth on a few of the 7 criteria...ignoring of course all the OTHER
measures, like the their holding the line as abuse and they
horrendousness of the KINDS of abuse when up...even bringing some of
it down over the years.


Responding to abuse reports and keeping children safe is among the
components in one of the 7 groupings of criteria.

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?


LOL! No beef?


You want me to cite all the lying **** filled destroy CPS posts on
this very newsgroup and then ALL OF YOURS showing you pat these ****s
on the head and congratulate them for posting biased media reports,
and ignoring all the good CPS does do?

Go **** yourself.


A biophysical impossibility, I am told.


Linepeople following current policy and enmeshed in systemic

dysfunction are
making grave errors that injure the very children they are mandated to
protect.


Propaganda. There is no world in which mistakes are not made, and
people injured. This is the infamous strawman. How could anyone
disagree with you.

Line people following ANY policy are ENMESHED in systematic
dysfunction because NO system is perfect or even much better than
stumbling along. Especially CPS with the crippling they have always
worked under.


A dysfunctional system is in far worse shape than simply being imperfect.

Child abuse and neglect are ugly nasty horrible things to
witness...and the public wants it fixed without having to witness it.
They want it done fast and they want it done cheap and they don't want
to to see it or pay for it.


I disagree. The public is paying billions for it. Citizens have a right to
expect their employees to do their jobs in a way that does not injure
children. At the very least, they should, "at first, do no harm."

Lela
Costin, Leroy Pelton, Duncan Lindsey, Phillip Schwartz, Howard Karger,
Richard Gelles, Susan Orr, and others. Each of these authors have
written
reform packages that call for police to assume the role of
investigating
child abuse and neglect. Dr. Pelton, in an exhaustive work in 1989;
Dr.
Lindsey in an equally lengthy book in 1993; Dr. Costin, et al in 1996,
Susan
Orr in 1998, Richard Gelles in 2000 and Dr. Swartz in 2001."

If all that is left, smartass, is CPS doing social work with volunary
clients, they will be doing nothing as all the parents will be in
jail. Do you really think the levels of abuse are going to diminish?


There are other tasks left to do after police do investigation...like social
work.


What sort of
"powerful inhibitors" are you talking about? What specific actions do

you
put in that category? Without knowing what you are addressing, I have

no
way of knowing if I advocated for taking them away or not.


The threat of loss of their children would qualify. Don't you think?

And that threat goes away, under what you advocate and I just posted,
UNTIL THE CHILD IS DEAD OR SO INJURED THEY MIGHT AS WELL BE.


The trouble is that when the state threatens parents with removal of their
children, it becomes necessary to use the "hammer" and remove children when
parents don't jump through hoops in the right way. This is precisely what
leads to an overcrowded and abusive foster care system. Children should not
be removed from their homes -- or threatened to be removed -- to force
parents to accept a government "service" (sanction).

Children with liberty interests in living peacefully with their families

are
being forcibly removed from their homes under the color of law and

forcibly
confined in state custody.


Under color of law MEANS BY LEGAL MEANS...you little evil twit.


Precisely.

"forcibly confined" R R R R .... They are FORCIBLY CONFINED then with
their parents. Anyone that is their caregiver is FORCIBLY confining
them, even the day care centers and public schools. What an evil
******* you are.


Incorrect. Children generally want to live in their homes with their
parents and their siblings. Have you ever asked them?

More than 74% of them are confined with
strangers in various types of structures.


Gee, what happend to "incarcerated?"

IN some states as many as 50% are with relatives, some of whom
themselves kill or injure them. Stop the ****ing lies by misleading
and misdirection.


The average is 24% nationwide. What states have 50%?

Basically you are the same kind of mindless twit that bobb is. You
just are better educated hence better able to conceal your sickness
and bigotry.


bobb is not a "mindless twit." To the contrary, he is a thoughtful member
of this group who makes it a habit to write posts that encourage us to think
about the issues. He does disagree with you on occassion, which is why you
call him names.

Nonetheless, you have a great day, sir!

Doug


  #9  
Old May 22nd 04, 04:37 PM
bobb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plant Prattlings....was....Would you trust CPS which has FAILED EVERY STATE


"Doug" wrote in message
...
Kane writes:

And that YOU assholes can't have it both ways.......claiming a failure
of CPS but claiming a decrease in sex abuse as a defense for crippling
CPS further for lack of work to do.


Hi, Kane!

Who wrote all of that? Certainly not me or anyone else on this forum

other
than you.

Either CPS did or didn't have an effect on the percentage drop...now
which is it you liar?


As research posted to this newsgroup has reported, there are many possible
reasons for the decrease. Among them, a sizable blacklash from the 20

year
history of false allegations in this area. Citizens and mandated

reporters
are discovering that the phamplets handed out by the agencies regarding
"indicators" of sexual abuse are wrong.

You have your seats mixed up. Unless you think the experts are the
copilots.


I have the seats right. The pilot sits in the left seat.


With their EB-6 and Far's manual... :-)


Stop blaming CPS for what was forced on them.


Nothing was forced on CPS. They lobbied congress, they lobbied states, and
they contributed mightly to legislators who were hood-winked. Private
agencies were often out front as well. It's unfortunate that so many kids
were exploited for nefarious gain yet so many people wrongly listened to
these 'experts'.


CPS malpractice was carried out at the agencies' direction and not anyone
elses. No one else is to blame.

With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license

for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save children
lives.

Who on earth do you claim has crippled CPS?? Reform measures now in

front
of Congress and state legislatures across the country may change CPS
practice if they are passed, but CPS malfunction during the last

three
decades was the product of out-of-control agencies will almost no
accountability to anyone.


That is a bald faced lie. They struggled the entire time to be
accountable to the feds, and were under constant scrutiny by their own
legislatures. How do you stand yourself?


CPS agencies were not under the scrutiny of state legislatures nor
accountable to the feds. The recent audits were a federal attempt to

BEGIN
to hold the agencies accountable.

And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and

inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.

No, the idea of the reforms I have posted and those now suggested by

the Pew
Commission is to change federal guidelines and mandates.


Have you ever seen my suggest otherwise?

Have you ever SPOKEN OUT AGAINST THE ANTI CPS KANT IN THESE NGS? EVER?

The consisted of things like "Kill CPS" and you let it go on. And you
encouraged and patted on the head those that indulged in it.

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?


LOL! No beef? If you have some substantial information that addresses

the
issue we are discussing, I would be glad to see it. The silly name

calling
suggests you lack that information.



He does that when backed into a corner...

Most especially,
as many of us have written in this forum for years, changing Title

IV-E
funding to a capped entitlement that can be used by the states in a

manner
they see fit.


... and will ultimately take credit for other's suggestion.


Which "Many" is that? List them and site their instances of having
"written" what you claim.


I have. Many times. The others may or may not choose to respond

regarding
their participation.

"used by the states in a manner they see fit" eh?

Show me where even YOU have ever said that before. Go ahead. When you
have cited YOU from the archives, show me who else has EVER SAID SUCH
A THING...except possibly myself in other wording.


Ooops.. talk about taking credit!


Many times. I am sure the premise was made using a wide array of wording
and phrasing at different times.


I've often said CPS does not avail itself of other state and private
services relating to home-care... particularly housing and services to the
poor. Under the guise of neglect, their only recouse has been to remove the
child and make unreasonable demands on the parent(s) to acheive conformity.
Those, like Doug, with a more technical understanding and view of funding
use a different approach to acheive the same end. You just haven't noticed,
Kane.


Come on Douggie. Show us the citations.

We have constantly advocated for taking the foster care, poor
kids strings off this funding.


Appeals to emotion are just another of your gimmicky ploys, Douggie.

The point is you and I agreed long ago that the people on the line had
a better grasp of what was needed and would work, but YOU encouraged
your lying pack of hyenas here in this ng to ignore this.


Linepeople following current policy and enmeshed in systemic dysfunction

are
making grave errors that injure the very children they are mandated to
protect.

And no, you, as in the pack of you, have done NO SUCH THING. Some of
you have advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS, or stripping
them of some of their most powerful inhibitors of child abuse...and
the Pew commission spotlighted this very nicely in just a few words.


I have not advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS. What sort of
"powerful inhibitors" are you talking about? What specific actions do you
put in that category? Without knowing what you are addressing, I have no
way of knowing if I advocated for taking them away or not.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.


I don't think that is the intention of the Pew report.


In simply attempting to bring back tax dollars to their state, CPS

agency's
incarcerated thousands of innocent children in foster care.


They did NOT incarcerated. They placed them in out of home care. No
jails involved at all, you liar.


Ok, Kane... I'll disagree with, Doug. (absent the profanity) The kids
weren't incarcerated... they were kid-napped.


Children with liberty interests in living peacefully with their families

are
being forcibly removed from their homes under the color of law and

forcibly
confined in state custody. More than 74% of them are confined with
strangers in various types of structures.

Since those
precious tax dollars were in the form of Title IV-E foster care

funding, the
agencies removed children from innocent parents out of greed.


Bull****. You are a clearly identified liar in other matters, and this
as well. The did so out of ORDERS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
BY LAW.


You are absolutely and categorically incorrect. These children were

removed
by state child protective agencies on their own initiative with the
motivation to collect federal funding. The federal government did NOT

order
these agencies to do it. The feds set the criteria for their money.

Since
that criteria provides an incentive to incarcerate poor children, they are
accountable. But that state agencies chose to remove children to get

access
to that money is appalling.


.. The Feds said... you take those children away from their parents.. and
we'll give you money. If you can get them adopted.. we'll give you even
more money.


Why should families trust the expertise of CPS

Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific job
under nearly impossible odds.

The Pew Commission has found that the foster care system is

"unquestionably
broken" and that CPS has done far less than a "terrific" job.


Under federally mandated policy guidelines set by LAW, both federal
and the required state "sister laws."


The state child protection agencies bear responsibility for their
malpractice. The Nazi defense, "I was ordered to do it" won't work for
personnel of these agencies. The workers within these agencies are
accountable for their own actions.

You are obfuscating yet again.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and performance.

Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.


An unintended consequence of well intended people, I'm sure. With money out
there for the asking... CPS set the stage and grabbed the brass ring, which
to their delight, was far more lucrative then even they probably expected.

CPS broke the origianl intent of foster care system... tried to correct
their mistakes a number of times... and in frustration lobbbied for, and got
the federal governemnt to legalize morally unfair adoption practices....
with subsidies and monetary reward.



Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have

for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent have
ignored?

Many of those experts have been asking the same questions for many

years.
Child and family advocates have said for years that the foster care

system
was broken and that the federal funding through Title IV-E should be

used
for purposes other than foster care.


I'm afraid the questions you allude to... were not of the same nature others
asked. I note that you finally admit the foster care system is broken.

Many months I ago, I suggested when change came.. you'd be right there
taking credit for your participation and contributions. You see things quite
clearly in black and white... which are often the extremes. The larger
grey areas often prove the most difficult to visulize, understand and
resolve. To deny the affiliation beween the feds and cps "obfuscates" (your
favorite big word) the true issues.






And you certainly haven't seen ME disagree. My bitch is with the
constant hammering at CPS WITHOUT BLAMING THE FEDS FOR THE DEBACLE.


How is it possible to disassociate CPS from federal mandates and subsidy.
Except for the few wise citizen groups, and occassioally the courts, the
only ones actively called for changes.. and the only ones who got
attention.... was CPS. Those same changes, by the way, is what more and
more people are seeing as wrong and unjust.

It's unfortuate that the few wise people among us were not listened to...
even as the courts were being stripped of their powers.


If you steal a man's wallet (taxes), then force him to dance to get it
back, he's likely to dance to your tune.


If he dances to the tune in violation of his ethics and moral convictions,
just to get at the money, he alone must face the music. He is

responsible.
It is simply inhumane to remove children from their parents, inflicting
tremendous emotional damage, for a buck. The feds are responsible to
providing the temptation, but the state workers are solely responsible for
yeilding to the temptation by irreparably injuring the very children they
were mandated to protect. For the damage they have done to children, the
agencies are fully responsible.


NOW the feds are going to move the funding to thugs of their own
choosing and it will be worse, not better...you know damn well that
there is going to be NO CAPPED FUNDING the states can use at their
discretion.


Thugs are thugs, whoever pays them. In this thread, we have been talking
about holding the current thugs accountable for the damage they have

already
done to children. You argue that we should worry about different thugs

paid
by the feds without considering the damage already done by the state

thugs.

I can't really discount that reapportionment, and capped funds, will have
some affect on CPS ... I'm still skepical about the extent.. as well as
the consequences. Doug is certainly more optimistic than I. Hmmm.... guess
I should resort to a few profanities and insults, huh?

bobb


There will be a MORE tightly controlled federal dispensation of money
and favors and power. Public education is going through this just as
child protection is. It's the same pattern, and it's cronyism, and the
states HAVE NOT, as you lie, simply paid off local vendors....they
can't FIND ENOUGH OF THEM TO TREAT THE DAMAGE DONE TO CHILDREN BY
THEIR OWN PARENTS NOW, YOU ****ING LIAR.


The state child protection agencies currently pay thousands of local
vendors -- therapists, consultants, advisors, GAL's, group home operators,
caseworkers, parenting teachers, counselors, lawyers, assorted species of
jacklegs, partridges and the pear trees in which they roost.

Have a wonderful day, sir! You are an adult, so you can be relatively
confident that you can spend it at home with those you love.

Doug




  #10  
Old May 24th 04, 07:41 AM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Plant Prattlings....was....Would you trust CPS which has FAILED EVERY STATE

On Sat, 22 May 2004 07:01:19 -0400, "Doug" wrote:

Kane writes:

How can anyone miss that they have for years been under threats by

the
feds all over the US? Some have even been taken over by the courts

and
I'M NOT HEARING OF GREAT FEATS OF IMPROVEMENT.


Hi, Kane!

Yes, increasingly, federal courts are taking over foster care systems
throughout the country because of the agency's consistent refusal to
consider reforming on their own.


Unable to "reform" on their own and do what they do not have the
funding to do.

The results have been mixed.


R R R R....to say the least.

The Feds set up a carrot and concealed the stick, then waved it
around, now they are applying it....and the fix was in from the

start
for CPS to fail.


What sort of fix?


To fail. I've stated this repeatedly. Do you ever stop playing games?

What was the carrot?


Money to get children out of the cycle of custody and return. Are you
stupid?

What is the stick?


Concealed. That the feds would NOT stick to the law as it read. There
was, for instance, NOTHING in the law that said the states had to
recruit relatives...only that they make the effort...and it did NOT
say how much effort.

the 90' marked one of he bleakest periods in the drug scene, where
everyone and their brother was setting up meth labs in their

kitchen
or basement. Drug use increased hugely in those years. And

children's
parents were drug users and makers.


Perhaps one of the problems during that period was that state workers

may
have actually assumed that "everybody and their brother" was

manufactoring
methamphetamine.


No such thing. They had two things telling them the truth about it.
The LE stats, and the sorry experience of having childen handed to
them from the arms of hazmat clothed technicians that just had to do a
decontamination on the child's body.

http://www.ag.state.az.us/DEC/HowEndangesChildren.html

Such a generalization and contempt prior to investigation


Yer lying yet again. They had first hand experience. Who would other
than them? I personally watched the wave of this drug and it's effects
hit and kill with my first witnessed death from meth in 1968.

Man in a tent in Southern Oregon where I had gone to do a survey. He
was bleeding from every body opening. Young, had everything going for
him. Very sad.

Died before the EMT's arrived.

And that was the beginning. Five times I've had homes very near my own
residences (and my neighborhoods tended to be upscale) declared
uninhabitable because of meth manufacturing. That is way to many for
coincidence. This is a major problem.

could have made it very tough for the children of everyone and their
brother.


Not as tough as meth and its manufacture has been.

http://www.mapinc.org/ccnews/v04/n627/a04.html?201

I don't recommend the following, except usually to those tempted to
use...so go with caution:

http://www.crystalrecovery.com/index.html

Yah know, Doug, sometimes I'm kinda rough on you with the name
calling, but I haven't thought up one to match the moral degeneracy
this recent claim of yours amounts to.

This scourge is and has been sweeping this country for decades, to the
point it's such old news the media hardly mentions it anymore in any
significant way. Haven't read any real good and helpful stories on it
for some time now. .. but this, as low rated as this rag probably is,
circulation wise, well have to do for now.

http://www.stateline.org/stateline/?...Info&id=323046

So I guess I'm stuck, despite you, a claimed social worker that has to
know better, with calling you the usual. You are a ****ing scum
sucking liar you freekin' sick ****.

If anything has taken children from families more than meth I'd like
to know what it could be. And the problem is growing.

To minimize this problem proves to me just how dispicable you
are....just to take another undeserved swipe at CPS and child
protective workers. How sick can you get?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ve+for+%2Bmeth

And considering this isn't just a meth problem as children present to
CPS and "meth" isn't the issue really to be considered...just one more
symptom of parental abuse and neglect......

http://www.futureofchildren.org/usr_doc/vol6no2ART8.pdf

The Department has conducted 24 pilot tests of an outcomes-based
monitoring system and has published proposed regulations that draw
substantially on the lessons from those pilots. We currently are
reviewing public comments on the regulations and intend to publish

a
final rule before the end of this year.
As a result of federal financial assistance, technical support, and
clear accountability that includes phased-in penalties, states are

now
collecting and able to report much more timely and accurate data on
foster care and adoptions. Reporting on child abuse and neglect

also
has improved considerably, as a result of both financial and

technical
assistance. "

What do you think "consultation with the field" means? They had

coffee
together once in 14 years?


What you cut and pasted is a discussion about how the feds sought out

state
input in designing the criteria for the audits that were conducted

the past
three years. It took that long from theory to practice. The

process, as
your cut and paste explains, was to go to the states for input and

then
print proposed quidelines in the Federal Register. States further

commented
on the published criteria, and the feds then went back to draft

revisions,
which were again published in the Federal Register.


Yep. And anyone that has ever worked with the feds little minions
knows how they complicate and reinterpret things. The fix was in years
ago. The states were set up to fail and the mechanism where carefully
wired into place by the methods you just commented on.

Let folks read a few things like the following and you and they

will
see why CPS is "failing," and in many instances only by a hair's
breadth on a few of the 7 criteria...ignoring of course all the

OTHER
measures, like the their holding the line as abuse and they
horrendousness of the KINDS of abuse when up...even bringing some

of
it down over the years.


Responding to abuse reports and keeping children safe is among the
components in one of the 7 groupings of criteria.


Yep. And can you tell us how badly they missed the mark?

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?

LOL! No beef?


You want me to cite all the lying **** filled destroy CPS posts on
this very newsgroup and then ALL OF YOURS showing you pat these

****s
on the head and congratulate them for posting biased media reports,
and ignoring all the good CPS does do?

Go **** yourself.


A biophysical impossibility, I am told.


Not in your case. You manage yourself while doing a few others here.

Linepeople following current policy and enmeshed in systemic

dysfunction are
making grave errors that injure the very children they are

mandated to
protect.


Propaganda. There is no world in which mistakes are not made, and
people injured. This is the infamous strawman. How could anyone
disagree with you.

Line people following ANY policy are ENMESHED in systematic
dysfunction because NO system is perfect or even much better than
stumbling along. Especially CPS with the crippling they have always
worked under.


A dysfunctional system is in far worse shape than simply being

imperfect.

Hair splitting. Use of the word "dysfunction" without a measure being
set allows for near misses to be judged as equal to total misses.

Child abuse and neglect are ugly nasty horrible things to
witness...and the public wants it fixed without having to witness

it.
They want it done fast and they want it done cheap and they don't

want
to to see it or pay for it.


I disagree. The public is paying billions for it.


Inflation makes the term "billions" no longer the impactful emotion
laden claim it used to be. The size of the problem is immense.

Citizens have a right to
expect their employees to do their jobs in a way that does not injure
children. At the very least, they should, "at first, do no harm."


Yep. They sure do. And yes, they sure shouldn't. Your claims of both
being failures are highly exaggerated as you 3 time and 8 time as many
comparision against an unsupervised demographic. Nonsense as usual.

And I want and expect my police departments to "at first, do no harm"
but I recognize they will never be perfect, nor will they even
approach it...and it is becoming increasingly obvious that even when
they do exactly as they are ordered to do, and they are NOT breaking
the law, they still get the same kind of criticism....they are damned
if they do......(they are labled overzealous) ...and damned if the
don't (they are accused of sitting around eating donuts and drinking
coffee on the job).

Same crap comes down about CPS workers. And it's no more valid.

A few cases are held up and the pretense is that this is typical of
CPS workers.

You and yours are liars Doug, and would NEVER allow anyone to hold you
to the same standards. Tell us you never make mistakes. Go ahead. I
want to see just how big a lie you can tell.

Lela
Costin, Leroy Pelton, Duncan Lindsey, Phillip Schwartz, Howard

Karger,
Richard Gelles, Susan Orr, and others. Each of these authors have
written
reform packages that call for police to assume the role of
investigating
child abuse and neglect. Dr. Pelton, in an exhaustive work in

1989;
Dr.
Lindsey in an equally lengthy book in 1993; Dr. Costin, et al in

1996,
Susan
Orr in 1998, Richard Gelles in 2000 and Dr. Swartz in 2001."

If all that is left, smartass, is CPS doing social work with

volunary
clients, they will be doing nothing as all the parents will be in
jail. Do you really think the levels of abuse are going to

diminish?

There are other tasks left to do after police do investigation...like

social
work.


Not in your world, Douggie. Remember. You voted for (in coversations
with me right here) for there to be NO intervention unless there was a
criminal investigation with all the limits inherent in that.

And I haven't seen you get after the little suck butts here for
claiming that cops have no business stopping someone and asking what
is going on.

When you get your act together with this crew of sickos you've
cultivated you might be a bit more credible.

So clean up your act, scumsucker.

What sort of
"powerful inhibitors" are you talking about? What specific

actions do
you
put in that category? Without knowing what you are addressing, I

have
no
way of knowing if I advocated for taking them away or not.


The threat of loss of their children would qualify. Don't you

think?

And that threat goes away, under what you advocate and I just

posted,
UNTIL THE CHILD IS DEAD OR SO INJURED THEY MIGHT AS WELL BE.


The trouble is that when the state threatens parents with removal of

their
children, it becomes necessary to use the "hammer" and remove

children when
parents don't jump through hoops in the right way.


That does NOT answer my claim or charge. That is yet another excuse to
propagandize. YOU are still advocating a way of performing that will
doom many children to more severe injury and death.

For instance, one of the first things to go away will be involuntary
testing of babies and mothers for drugs and mandatory reporting to
CPS...well, in your world, the Police.

NO warrant...not call. And the police can't ask without probable
cause. Where are they going to get it?

Schools will not be able to report suspicion of abuse and neglect
until a child is dire straights and near death..not just by condition,
but by emergency room standards...with maybe minutes to spare.

Children will die.

This is precisely what
leads to an overcrowded and abusive foster care system.


Crock o' **** only your hangers on here believe.

Children should not
be removed from their homes -- or threatened to be removed -- to

force
parents to accept a government "service" (sanction).


Nope. You are right. Just leave the child there until they service is
no longer needed. Dead children lose their parents the hard way.
Severyly injured get to live the rest of their lives with the
attendant disability. And visit their parents in jail, maybe.

Children with liberty interests in living peacefully with their

families
are
being forcibly removed from their homes under the color of law

and
forcibly
confined in state custody.


Under color of law MEANS BY LEGAL MEANS...you little evil twit.


Precisely.


Yep, you and I agree then: you are an evil little twit.

"forcibly confined" R R R R .... They are FORCIBLY CONFINED then

with
their parents. Anyone that is their caregiver is FORCIBLY confining
them, even the day care centers and public schools. What an evil
******* you are.


Incorrect. Children generally want to live in their homes with their
parents and their siblings. Have you ever asked them?


Not only have I I have so stated more than once in this ng. You are
using the commonly known, to workers and mental health professionals,
phenomena of the victim's attachment to the tormentor, coupled with
the inevitable fear of loss of the familiar, and the fact that each of
us gets' on one of each parent...and we do not want to lose them, to
pretend that CPS is doing a child disservice to remove them from
possibly dangerous circumstances for an investigation.

You are proposing the child can know and assess the relative safety of
their circumstances. You are sick.

More than 74% of them are confined with
strangers in various types of structures.


Gee, what happend to "incarcerated?"

IN some states as many as 50% are with relatives, some of whom
themselves kill or injure them. Stop the ****ing lies by misleading
and misdirection.


The average is 24% nationwide. What states have 50%?


Callifornia. The Plant posted it here in an article and I've varified
it in two sources.

Basically you are the same kind of mindless twit that bobb is. You
just are better educated hence better able to conceal your sickness
and bigotry.


bobb is not a "mindless twit." To the contrary, he is a thoughtful

member
of this group who makes it a habit to write posts that encourage us

to think
about the issues. He does disagree with you on occassion, which is

why you
call him names.


I call him names because he is a fear mongering bigot, a mysoginist,
and misanthrope, an anti mental health twit, and a science hating
fool.

And he lies about CPS, as well as perpetuating his ignorance. That he
means well is not a question...and I consider well meaning fools among
the most dangerous.

Give me a true knowledgable evil person everytime to combat, as they
can be stopped. The idiot and ignorant are very very dangerous because
they do not KNOW how evil they are being.

You cultivate his biases and fears like the truly dispicable thug you
are. He's your dupe, just as The Plant.

Nonetheless, you have a great day, sir!


Nonetheless, enjoy your pretentious posturing.

Doug


Kane
 




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