Rewarding good or "not bad"

I'm coming from the view of #1, who sits still, listens and obeys (at school
anyway!!) and is at the top end of her form. Her teacher commented that she
"coasts" the academic side, and still is at the top. Certainly she produces
much better work at home than she does at school.

At various times she has commented that you get more rewards at school by
being "not bad" than being always good. It's been comment before but I'm
beginning to sense a frustration, as often these other children are getting
rewards frequently that she would like to have occasionally.

Having observed at various times the 3-4 children in her form that are least
able to concentrate seem to get more than half the visible rewards going at
any time, this does seem to be disproportionate, but I can sympathise with
the teachers who have to keep them going. The school is very
non-competative, and don't seem to reward achievement either academically,
sporting, or other although they're good at recognising effort. I like the
awarding for effort, but sometimes #1 is confused by this and thinks she
must have done something badly because others got commended and she didn't
or thinks she must be really good at something that she isn't, but gets
rewarded because she tries.

Last year I overheard her discussing with friends whether it was worth being
"naughty" one day to get "star of the day". Luckily they decided it wasn't
worth being told off back then, but I'm not sure she's going to keep that
decision up if this continues. (I susequently noticed that the "star of the
day" was basically awarded to the same 3 children every week, and maybe
another if they remembered to do it on another day)
#1 has commented that the rewards are not done on an equal scale, which she
seems to find a bit confusing (she commented one time that her teacher had
said that 2 stories in the class were "superb" and one subsequently got a
head teacher's certificate for it and the other didn't. She thought the head
teacher must have forgotten the other child) and I have discussed with her
about finding different things hard and trying hard being important.

I think this is an issue with at least one other girl in her class too, from
speaking to her parent.

I'm wondering how other schools deal with this problem, as I can't think of
a realisitc way round this where all are going to be motivated and feel
rewarded. The ones who really seem to miss out from my observation are those
who are quiet, obedient, and middle of the class in achievements, they seem
to get very, very few rewards at all.

Debbie

In article , Welches says...

I'm coming from the view of #1, who sits still, listens and obeys (at school
anyway!!) and is at the top end of her form. Her teacher commented that she
"coasts" the academic side, and still is at the top. Certainly she produces
much better work at home than she does at school.

At various times she has commented that you get more rewards at school by
being "not bad" than being always good. It's been comment before but I'm
beginning to sense a frustration, as often these other children are getting
rewards frequently that she would like to have occasionally.

Having observed at various times the 3-4 children in her form that are least
able to concentrate seem to get more than half the visible rewards going at
any time, this does seem to be disproportionate, but I can sympathise with
the teachers who have to keep them going. The school is very
non-competative, and don't seem to reward achievement either academically,
sporting, or other although they're good at recognising effort. I like the
awarding for effort, but sometimes #1 is confused by this and thinks she
must have done something badly because others got commended and she didn't
or thinks she must be really good at something that she isn't, but gets
rewarded because she tries.

Last year I overheard her discussing with friends whether it was worth being
"naughty" one day to get "star of the day". Luckily they decided it wasn't
worth being told off back then, but I'm not sure she's going to keep that
decision up if this continues. (I susequently noticed that the "star of the
day" was basically awarded to the same 3 children every week, and maybe
another if they remembered to do it on another day)
#1 has commented that the rewards are not done on an equal scale, which she
seems to find a bit confusing (she commented one time that her teacher had
said that 2 stories in the class were "superb" and one subsequently got a
head teacher's certificate for it and the other didn't. She thought the head
teacher must have forgotten the other child) and I have discussed with her
about finding different things hard and trying hard being important.

I think this is an issue with at least one other girl in her class too, from
speaking to her parent.

I'm wondering how other schools deal with this problem, as I can't think of
a realisitc way round this where all are going to be motivated and feel
rewarded. The ones who really seem to miss out from my observation are those
who are quiet, obedient, and middle of the class in achievements, they seem
to get very, very few rewards at all.


This is slow-drip torture for a bright kid, and the road to cynicism. She's
already gotten cynical. Are there other educational opportunities around for
her?

Banty

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Welches says...

I'm coming from the view of #1, who sits still, listens and obeys (at
school
anyway!!) and is at the top end of her form. Her teacher commented that
she
"coasts" the academic side, and still is at the top. Certainly she
produces
much better work at home than she does at school.

At various times she has commented that you get more rewards at school by
being "not bad" than being always good. It's been comment before but I'm
beginning to sense a frustration, as often these other children are
getting
rewards frequently that she would like to have occasionally.

Having observed at various times the 3-4 children in her form that are
least
able to concentrate seem to get more than half the visible rewards going
at
any time, this does seem to be disproportionate, but I can sympathise with
the teachers who have to keep them going. The school is very
non-competative, and don't seem to reward achievement either academically,
sporting, or other although they're good at recognising effort. I like the
awarding for effort, but sometimes #1 is confused by this and thinks she
must have done something badly because others got commended and she didn't
or thinks she must be really good at something that she isn't, but gets
rewarded because she tries.

Last year I overheard her discussing with friends whether it was worth
being
"naughty" one day to get "star of the day". Luckily they decided it wasn't
worth being told off back then, but I'm not sure she's going to keep that
decision up if this continues. (I susequently noticed that the "star of
the
day" was basically awarded to the same 3 children every week, and maybe
another if they remembered to do it on another day)
#1 has commented that the rewards are not done on an equal scale, which
she
seems to find a bit confusing (she commented one time that her teacher had
said that 2 stories in the class were "superb" and one subsequently got a
head teacher's certificate for it and the other didn't. She thought the
head
teacher must have forgotten the other child) and I have discussed with her
about finding different things hard and trying hard being important.

I think this is an issue with at least one other girl in her class too,
from
speaking to her parent.

I'm wondering how other schools deal with this problem, as I can't think
of
a realisitc way round this where all are going to be motivated and feel
rewarded. The ones who really seem to miss out from my observation are
those
who are quiet, obedient, and middle of the class in achievements, they
seem
to get very, very few rewards at all.


This is slow-drip torture for a bright kid, and the road to cynicism.
She's
already gotten cynical. Are there other educational opportunities around
for
her?

No! Unless someone wishes to send us about £10K a year for school fees! (or
we win the lottery) and someone can persuade dh that the road to hell isn't
lines with private schools.
Debbie
Ps before anyone suggests, homeschooling would not be a good option for her

In article , Welches says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Welches says...

I'm coming from the view of #1, who sits still, listens and obeys (at
school
anyway!!) and is at the top end of her form. Her teacher commented that
she
"coasts" the academic side, and still is at the top. Certainly she
produces
much better work at home than she does at school.

At various times she has commented that you get more rewards at school by
being "not bad" than being always good. It's been comment before but I'm
beginning to sense a frustration, as often these other children are
getting
rewards frequently that she would like to have occasionally.

Having observed at various times the 3-4 children in her form that are
least
able to concentrate seem to get more than half the visible rewards going
at
any time, this does seem to be disproportionate, but I can sympathise with
the teachers who have to keep them going. The school is very
non-competative, and don't seem to reward achievement either academically,
sporting, or other although they're good at recognising effort. I like the
awarding for effort, but sometimes #1 is confused by this and thinks she
must have done something badly because others got commended and she didn't
or thinks she must be really good at something that she isn't, but gets
rewarded because she tries.

Last year I overheard her discussing with friends whether it was worth
being
"naughty" one day to get "star of the day". Luckily they decided it wasn't
worth being told off back then, but I'm not sure she's going to keep that
decision up if this continues. (I susequently noticed that the "star of
the
day" was basically awarded to the same 3 children every week, and maybe
another if they remembered to do it on another day)
#1 has commented that the rewards are not done on an equal scale, which
she
seems to find a bit confusing (she commented one time that her teacher had
said that 2 stories in the class were "superb" and one subsequently got a
head teacher's certificate for it and the other didn't. She thought the
head
teacher must have forgotten the other child) and I have discussed with her
about finding different things hard and trying hard being important.

I think this is an issue with at least one other girl in her class too,
from
speaking to her parent.

I'm wondering how other schools deal with this problem, as I can't think
of
a realisitc way round this where all are going to be motivated and feel
rewarded. The ones who really seem to miss out from my observation are
those
who are quiet, obedient, and middle of the class in achievements, they
seem
to get very, very few rewards at all.


This is slow-drip torture for a bright kid, and the road to cynicism.
She's
already gotten cynical. Are there other educational opportunities around
for
her?

No! Unless someone wishes to send us about £10K a year for school fees! (or
we win the lottery) and someone can persuade dh that the road to hell isn't
lines with private schools.
Debbie
Ps before anyone suggests, homeschooling would not be a good option for her



Hopefully things may change in the junior high school next year.

But this kind of thing is murder. Perhaps you can reinforce at home that her
academic abilities are very valued, and that, in the outside world, her strong
skills *will* be rewarded. And seek whatever other programs you can for her
(camp, scouts, etc., along that line).

Banty

On Dec 6, 9:24 am, Banty wrote:

snip

This is slow-drip torture for a bright kid, and the road to cynicism.
She's
already gotten cynical. Are there other educational opportunities around
for
her?

No! Unless someone wishes to send us about £10K a year for school fees! (or
we win the lottery) and someone can persuade dh that the road to hell isn't
lines with private schools.
Debbie
Ps before anyone suggests, homeschooling would not be a good option for her

Hopefully things may change in the junior high school next year.

?? At what age/grade *do* they start giving letter grades in UK
schools?

Beliavsky wrote:
On Dec 6, 9:24 am, Banty wrote:

snip

This is slow-drip torture for a bright kid, and the road to cynicism.
She's
already gotten cynical. Are there other educational opportunities around
for
her?
No! Unless someone wishes to send us about £10K a year for school fees! (or
we win the lottery) and someone can persuade dh that the road to hell isn't
lines with private schools.
Debbie
Ps before anyone suggests, homeschooling would not be a good option for her
Hopefully things may change in the junior high school next year.

?? At what age/grade *do* they start giving letter grades in UK
schools?

Well, never. It is probably more like the Indian system you mentioned.

We have "SATS" exams at 6/7yo, 10/11yo and 13/14yo: the results are
given as a numerical level on the same scale, although these are
sub-divided into a, b or c.

So most children would be expected to be working at level 2 when they
are 7yo, and will be tested in English and maths.

When they are 10/11yo, in May they are tested in English, maths and
science and the average child is expected to be at level 4, although
some children will be working at level 5, and others at level 3.

They are tested in English, maths and science again when they are
13/14yo. At this age, children will be expected to be working at
level 5 or 6.

Then they go onto working towards exams. The exams taken at 15/16yo are
called GCSE's and have a combination of exam and set pieces of work.
The results are given as letters, and most employers consider results of
A-C as a pass, and D or below as a fail.

The next main set of exams are A levels, taken at 17/18yo. If you are
planning to go to University, you would take 3 or possibly 4: the
passing grades are A-E.

Basically, the results of SATS are fairly irrelevant once you get to
GCSE level. What employers and colleges are interested in are the GCSE
and A level results. It doesn't really matter to them whether you got a
level 8 in maths when you were 14 if you get a D at GCSE.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

"Welches" wrote in message
...

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Welches says...

I'm coming from the view of #1, who sits still, listens and obeys (at
school
anyway!!) and is at the top end of her form. Her teacher commented that
she
"coasts" the academic side, and still is at the top. Certainly she
produces
much better work at home than she does at school.

At various times she has commented that you get more rewards at school by
being "not bad" than being always good. It's been comment before but I'm
beginning to sense a frustration, as often these other children are
getting
rewards frequently that she would like to have occasionally.

Having observed at various times the 3-4 children in her form that are
least
able to concentrate seem to get more than half the visible rewards going
at
any time, this does seem to be disproportionate, but I can sympathise
with
the teachers who have to keep them going. The school is very
non-competative, and don't seem to reward achievement either
academically,
sporting, or other although they're good at recognising effort. I like
the
awarding for effort, but sometimes #1 is confused by this and thinks she
must have done something badly because others got commended and she
didn't
or thinks she must be really good at something that she isn't, but gets
rewarded because she tries.

Last year I overheard her discussing with friends whether it was worth
being
"naughty" one day to get "star of the day". Luckily they decided it
wasn't
worth being told off back then, but I'm not sure she's going to keep that
decision up if this continues. (I susequently noticed that the "star of
the
day" was basically awarded to the same 3 children every week, and maybe
another if they remembered to do it on another day)
#1 has commented that the rewards are not done on an equal scale, which
she
seems to find a bit confusing (she commented one time that her teacher
had
said that 2 stories in the class were "superb" and one subsequently got a
head teacher's certificate for it and the other didn't. She thought the
head
teacher must have forgotten the other child) and I have discussed with
her
about finding different things hard and trying hard being important.

I think this is an issue with at least one other girl in her class too,
from
speaking to her parent.

I'm wondering how other schools deal with this problem, as I can't think
of
a realisitc way round this where all are going to be motivated and feel
rewarded. The ones who really seem to miss out from my observation are
those
who are quiet, obedient, and middle of the class in achievements, they
seem
to get very, very few rewards at all.


This is slow-drip torture for a bright kid, and the road to cynicism.
She's
already gotten cynical. Are there other educational opportunities around
for
her?

No! Unless someone wishes to send us about £10K a year for school fees!
(or we win the lottery) and someone can persuade dh that the road to hell
isn't lines with private schools.



waving I wish I could help. I am a product of private schools. And I am
"Skipping Toward Gamorrah, as it were.

Debbie
Ps before anyone suggests, homeschooling would not be a good option for
her

On Dec 6, 6:35 am, "Welches"
wrote:
I'm coming from the view of #1, who sits still, listens and obeys (at school
anyway!!) and is at the top end of her form. Her teacher commented that she
"coasts" the academic side, and still is at the top. Certainly she produces
much better work at home than she does at school.

At various times she has commented that you get more rewards at school by
being "not bad" than being always good. It's been comment before but I'm
beginning to sense a frustration, as often these other children are getting
rewards frequently that she would like to have occasionally.

Having observed at various times the 3-4 children in her form that are least
able to concentrate seem to get more than half the visible rewards going at
any time, this does seem to be disproportionate, but I can sympathise with
the teachers who have to keep them going. The school is very
non-competative, and don't seem to reward achievement either academically,
sporting, or other although they're good at recognising effort. I like the
awarding for effort, but sometimes #1 is confused by this and thinks she
must have done something badly because others got commended and she didn't
or thinks she must be really good at something that she isn't, but gets
rewarded because she tries.

Doesn't the school have letter grades based on academic achievement,
and aren't good grades rewarding for your girl? Regarding "rewarding
for effort", if exactly the same material is taught to all children,
more intelligent children will master the material with less effort.
They should not be punished for that but instead be given more
challenging material. What is the procedure in your school for
determining whether a child should skip a grade? I think should
consider it.


Last year I overheard her discussing with friends whether it was worth being
"naughty" one day to get "star of the day". Luckily they decided it wasn't
worth being told off back then, but I'm not sure she's going to keep that
decision up if this continues. (I susequently noticed that the "star of the
day" was basically awarded to the same 3 children every week, and maybe
another if they remembered to do it on another day)
#1 has commented that the rewards are not done on an equal scale, which she
seems to find a bit confusing (she commented one time that her teacher had
said that 2 stories in the class were "superb" and one subsequently got a
head teacher's certificate for it and the other didn't. She thought the head
teacher must have forgotten the other child) and I have discussed with her
about finding different things hard and trying hard being important.

I think this is an issue with at least one other girl in her class too, from
speaking to her parent.

I'm wondering how other schools deal with this problem, as I can't think of
a realisitc way round this where all are going to be motivated and feel
rewarded. The ones who really seem to miss out from my observation are those
who are quiet, obedient, and middle of the class in achievements, they seem
to get very, very few rewards at all.

If students are grouped by ability, the students in the middle in each
class are not so far behind the brightest as when heteregenous
grouping is used, and trying to be the best in their class will seem
more realistic to them.

"Beliavsky" wrote in message
...
On Dec 6, 6:35 am, "Welches"
wrote:
I'm coming from the view of #1, who sits still, listens and obeys (at
school
anyway!!) and is at the top end of her form. Her teacher commented that
she
"coasts" the academic side, and still is at the top. Certainly she
produces
much better work at home than she does at school.

At various times she has commented that you get more rewards at school by
being "not bad" than being always good. It's been comment before but I'm
beginning to sense a frustration, as often these other children are
getting
rewards frequently that she would like to have occasionally.

Having observed at various times the 3-4 children in her form that are
least
able to concentrate seem to get more than half the visible rewards going
at
any time, this does seem to be disproportionate, but I can sympathise
with
the teachers who have to keep them going. The school is very
non-competative, and don't seem to reward achievement either
academically,
sporting, or other although they're good at recognising effort. I like
the
awarding for effort, but sometimes #1 is confused by this and thinks she
must have done something badly because others got commended and she
didn't
or thinks she must be really good at something that she isn't, but gets
rewarded because she tries.

Doesn't the school have letter grades based on academic achievement,
and aren't good grades rewarding for your girl? Regarding "rewarding
for effort", if exactly the same material is taught to all children,
more intelligent children will master the material with less effort.
They should not be punished for that but instead be given more
challenging material. What is the procedure in your school for
determining whether a child should skip a grade? I think should
consider it.

We're in the UK. It is exceedingly unusual to not be in your own year in the
state system, and fairly unusual in the private sector. Also she is immature
socially, and I think that would cause its own problems.
They don't give marks or grades, which is standard at that age in the UK.
Yes, I think if they gave marks then it would be enough to get a good mark
as she's very much a mark hunter in things she does at home. They might get
"good" written at the bottom of something, but that means "good for your
usual standard" and she has picked this up.


Last year I overheard her discussing with friends whether it was worth
being
"naughty" one day to get "star of the day". Luckily they decided it
wasn't
worth being told off back then, but I'm not sure she's going to keep that
decision up if this continues. (I susequently noticed that the "star of
the
day" was basically awarded to the same 3 children every week, and maybe
another if they remembered to do it on another day)
#1 has commented that the rewards are not done on an equal scale, which
she
seems to find a bit confusing (she commented one time that her teacher
had
said that 2 stories in the class were "superb" and one subsequently got a
head teacher's certificate for it and the other didn't. She thought the
head
teacher must have forgotten the other child) and I have discussed with
her
about finding different things hard and trying hard being important.

I think this is an issue with at least one other girl in her class too,
from
speaking to her parent.

I'm wondering how other schools deal with this problem, as I can't think
of
a realisitc way round this where all are going to be motivated and feel
rewarded. The ones who really seem to miss out from my observation are
those
who are quiet, obedient, and middle of the class in achievements, they
seem
to get very, very few rewards at all.

If students are grouped by ability, the students in the middle in each
class are not so far behind the brightest as when heteregenous
grouping is used, and trying to be the best in their class will seem
more realistic to them.

They are in a mixed ability class. In this class they are split into 6 equal
groups in ability order in maths, and a different group for english/reading.
Sometimes they do the same work, other times they do different levels of the
same idea.
Debbie

Beliavsky wrote:
On Dec 6, 6:35 am, "Welches"
wrote:
I'm coming from the view of #1, who sits still, listens and obeys (at school
anyway!!) and is at the top end of her form. Her teacher commented that she
"coasts" the academic side, and still is at the top. Certainly she produces
much better work at home than she does at school.

At various times she has commented that you get more rewards at school by
being "not bad" than being always good. It's been comment before but I'm
beginning to sense a frustration, as often these other children are getting
rewards frequently that she would like to have occasionally.
[snip]

Doesn't the school have letter grades based on academic achievement,
and aren't good grades rewarding for your girl? Regarding "rewarding
for effort", if exactly the same material is taught to all children,
more intelligent children will master the material with less effort.
They should not be punished for that but instead be given more
challenging material. What is the procedure in your school for
determining whether a child should skip a grade? I think should
consider it.

IME, in the UK (where Welches is) schools don't tend to use letter-type
grades until the children are about 11yo and at secondary school. Even
then, they don't have the same importance over here as in some other
countries.

I don't think that having more challanging work would help either. Her
daughter would still not be getting the stickers or whatever the
children are getting.

[snip]
I'm wondering how other schools deal with this problem, as I can't think of
a realisitc way round this where all are going to be motivated and feel
rewarded. The ones who really seem to miss out from my observation are those
who are quiet, obedient, and middle of the class in achievements, they seem
to get very, very few rewards at all.

If students are grouped by ability, the students in the middle in each
class are not so far behind the brightest as when heteregenous
grouping is used, and trying to be the best in their class will seem
more realistic to them.

But that is not solving the problem. The children are not getting
rewards for being "the best in their class". The children who are
getting rewards are the children who are "the worst in the class" when
they behave at the required standard. The children who normally behave
at the required standard aren't getting rewarded for it.

Being the best only has some reward for the children who realise they
*are* the best, and even quite clever children don't neccessarily know
that. Here is that they are spotting that the worst children are
getting the rewards, and concluding that the way to get rewards is to
behave badly some of the time, even if their natural inclination is
to behave well. Further the more extrovert children might be happy
to point this out to the teacher, but the quieter ones won't.


--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three