"Beware of Vaccine Bullies"--Malkin column

JG wrote:

The bottom line is that horizontal transmission
between/among
schoolkids, assuming it does occur, is extremely rare--so
rare that
using it as a rationale for mass vaccination is
ridiculous.

A) X can happen.

J) Prove it!

A) [proof provdied]

J) That proves nothing - besides I never siad it doesn't
happen.

A) You asked for proof and I gave it.

J) Your proof proves nothing, I admit it happens, but it is
too rare to count.

Weasel, weasel, weasel..........

This is getting to be a habit with you that you seem to have
learned from Schafly - Argue against a concept and then when
you lose the argument claim that you never stated otherwise,
per se.

--
CBI, MD

JG wrote:
"CBI" wrote in message
k.net...
JG wrote:

Just what goes takes place on your schools'
playgrounds,
PF? Orgies?
Group piercings? Tattooing?

Biting?

A child who bites isn't ready for kindergarten.

Maybe - but they are there none the less.

And I bet every school district has policies regarding
aggressive
behavior (such as biting) that apply to all students,
regardless of
age.

And I'll bet kids still get bitten.

I know, I know - "I never said they didn't" - Standard
weasel # 37 .

--
CBI, MD

"CBI" wrote in message
k.net...
Jonathan Smith wrote:

Just what goes takes place on your schools' playgrounds,
PF? Orgies?
Group piercings? Tattooing?

Biting?

Drooling, not washing hands after using the toilette,
getting cuts and scrapes and not immediately telling an
adult to have it cleaned and bandaged,.....

I did a search the other day regarding transmission of HBV via saliva.
It seems there's still considerable debate as to whether "pure" saliva
can cause (transmit) infection. One theory holds that in instances
where saliva *seems* to be (by process of elimination) the transmitting
fluid, it likely contained trace amounts of blood (such as from a cut in
the mouth).

Are there any documented cases of "not washing hands after using the
toilet" transmission of HBV? Are there even any researchers who believe
that fecal-oral transmission occurs?

A cut or scrape alone wouldn't be a source of infection; the virus would
have to enter the wound via an infected individual's body fluid(s).

JG wrote:

So should testing for HBV carrier status be mandatory for
all
children before they are admitted to daycare?

If I ran a day care center (and were thus potentially
liable for the
injuries inflicted by a "known-to-be-aggressive"
attendee), I'd make
it a condition of attendance.

The joke is that you probably wouldn't attend one that did.


This a decision that *individual day
care center owner/operators* are allowed to make, however.
(You
don't think "society"--the public--should be allowed to
make such
decisions regarding the operation of private
businesses--as it has
regarding smoking in many locales--do you?)

I think that if a case for public good can be made that
society can mandate testing prior to attendance but that if
they do not so mandate that they should not infringe on the
right of the private center to set admission standards.


A parent doesn't like
it? Tough! He/she can find a laxer place in which to
deposit his/her
kid(s).

Agreed.


Colorado actually considers day
care centers to be schools (C.R.S. 25-4-901),

LOL !

IOW - if the daycare kids are in school - but they are
playing with toys etc and not engaged in teaching
activities - the are at recess. Ergo- the "daycare
transmission" study by Colorado's standards was a recess
study.

--
CBI, MD

"JG" wrote
The bottom line is that horizontal transmission between/among
schoolkids, assuming it does occur, is extremely rare--so rare that
using it as a rationale for mass vaccination is ridiculous.

That's right. I don't think that even the vaccine policymakers
believe that as a rationale. It is just something that peds can tell
moms like Malkin, so they don't have to tell the real reasons.

Vaccine Policy FAQ
http://www.mindspring.com/~schlafly/vac/vaccfaq.htm

"JG" wrote

A parent doesn't like it? Tough!
He/she can find a laxer place in which to deposit his/her kid(s).


How about this:

"A parent doesn't want to get their kids fully vaccinated? Tough!
It's a condition of being one of my patients. If the parents don't
like it, they can go to another, laxer, pediatrician."

(An example of what Ms. Malkin's pediatrician might have said.)

It seems we've come full circle, JG. Was Ms. Malkin's pediatrician
being unduly coercive or bullying? If so, it seems like you would be
just as bullying with testing if you ran a daycare center.

Mark, MD

Kathy Cole wrote in message . ..
On 10 Feb 2004 14:45:32 -0800, (abacus) wrote:

Ma'am,

Just curious; why are you 'ma'am'-ing me? I don't see you do that to
female posters with whom you appear to agree.

That is correct ma'am. Ma'am is a term of respect, and it is a way
for me to indicate in these conversations that I have respect for the
person even though I may disagree with what they say.

I have no way to know if that particular practice actually did what was
claimed, and no way to know which specific sources the parents used to
obtain their information about vaccines. Maybe the only data sources
the parent provided in discussions with the doctor were quacky and the
parent is a loon. I'm not about to accept the parent's characterization
as the only correct interpretation of the events in question.

Ma'am, I can appreciate that you do not wish to take one side of a
discussion as being the only correct interpretation, although my
assessment of the writer based on what was written is that she was not
a loon. Based on the presumption that account is accurate, and
recognizing that it may not be, would you care to respond to my
questions?

Is the response of the pediatrian described the kind of behavior that
encourages patients (or parents of patients) to learn about more about
medical procedures and make up their own minds regarding the risk and
benefits or is the the kind of behavior that encourages patients (or
parents of patients) to simply obey their doctors orders without
question?

On 12 Feb 2004 06:13:15 -0800, (abacus) wrote:

Is the response of the pediatrian described the kind of behavior that
encourages patients (or parents of patients) to learn about more about
medical procedures and make up their own minds regarding the risk and
benefits or is the the kind of behavior that encourages patients (or
parents of patients) to simply obey their doctors orders without
question?

I don't think it's primarily either. I think it is the kind of behavior
that prompts parents to seek other care, because disrespectful bullying
is not acceptable from any professional who wants my business (as I
think I said in my prior post). I think that the behavior described
will prompt 'What an asshole' and 'I'm beating a trail out of this
practice' out of parents, as it should do. I think it's
practice-limiting behavior (on the doctor's part), and thus eventually
self-correcting.

"Roger Schlafly" wrote in message .net...
"JG" wrote
The bottom line is that horizontal transmission between/among
schoolkids, assuming it does occur, is extremely rare--so rare that
using it as a rationale for mass vaccination is ridiculous.

That's right. I don't think that even the vaccine policymakers
believe that as a rationale. It is just something that peds can tell
moms like Malkin, so they don't have to tell the real reasons.

Unfortunately, Roger - ir is NOT something that Malkin reported as
having been told by their pediatrician.

We didn't get very good answers. It was "convenient," "recommended"
and
"routine," the medical staff assured us.

The real reason? OK - now Malkin does suggest black helicopters and
the vaccine cartel conspiracy as the rationale when it is reported
that:

"Ohio legislator Dale Van Vyven snuck the
Hep B mandate into a 1998 hazardous-waste bill at the behest of
profit-maximizing vaccine manufacturers' lobbyists."

Let's not put words in the mouths of the authors, Roger. I know it's
a lot to ask, but still, do give it a try.

And JG - you asked and I provided. Don't do the Sclafly shuffel
unless you want to be painted with the same brush.

And in case you still are at a loss as to what other behaviors might
explain the transmission vector - here's the conclusion from an
epidemiology study - and includes statistics:

"The behaviors most strongly associated with prevalence of HBV were
sharing of bath towels (OR = 3.1, 95% CI 2.1-4.5), sharing of chewing
gum or partially eaten candies (OR = 3.4, 95% CI 2.3-5.0), sharing of
dental cleaning materials (OR = 2.5, 95% CI 1.3-4.6), and biting of
fingernails in conjunction with scratching the backs of carriers (OR =
2.5, 95% CI 1.6-4.3)."

It's a good thing that the prevalence of Hep B in the US is as low as
it is. Then again, the immigrant population goes to the same school
as your kids, Roger and JG.

js

"Mark" wrote in message
om...
"JG" wrote

A parent doesn't like it? Tough!
He/she can find a laxer place in which to deposit his/her kid(s).

How about this:

"A parent doesn't want to get their kids fully vaccinated? Tough!
It's a condition of being one of my patients. If the parents don't
like it, they can go to another, laxer, pediatrician."
(An example of what Ms. Malkin's pediatrician might have said.)

I've already stated, in this and previous threads, that physicians
needn't see/treat anyone they don't want to.

It seems we've come full circle, JG. Was Ms. Malkin's pediatrician
being unduly coercive or bullying? If so, it seems like you would be
just as bullying with testing if you ran a daycare center.

Perhaps we disagree on just what constitutes "bullying." IMO, attitude
and the choice of words, not the core message itself, are the test.
Surely you must agree there's a considerable difference between "I'm
sorry, Mrs. Malkin, but we have a policy that if a parent forgos
immunizations for other than medical (and perhaps religious) reasons, we
ask them to find another pediatrician" and "We think parents who forgo
immunizations are ill-informed and foolishly endangering their child,
and we refuse to keep their kids as patients."

At any rate, if you consider informing someone of your policies and
telling them that it's either "your way or the highway," *regardless* of
the actual words used and the attitude conveyed, to be bullying, then
yes, I would be a "bullying" day care center operator.