Kids should work !!!

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On 16 Nov 2003 17:13:12 -0800, (Kane)
wrote:

It's not a either/or dichotomy!

Of course not. Where did you get the idea she was presenting such a
narrow option?

It is about striking a balance and
finding what work for each individual children. It is the overuse of
reward and punishment that is bad.

It is your inability to understand that a repertoire of non-punitive
parenting methods is FAR more expansive and extensive than that
usually used by punishment oriented parenting and parents.

In other words, it is much more likely that the diversity between
children is likely to be ignored or go undiscovered by a spanker, than
by a non-punitive parent.

The non-punitive parent NEVER has the quick and brutal solution of a
CP action to fall back on so they must learn, and they must learn
about the differences between their children and between any child an
another.

Yep. This is exactly so because all punishments are essentially the
same, but positive methods allow for the differences that parents see.

Then it should be easy to prove. Again, just put the alternatives to
same statiscal scrutiny as with spanking.

Doan

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 00:49:30 -0800, Doan wrote:

It would be more effective to teach the parents to use positive
methods when the child is much younger. And it is much more
effective too, if a child has parents who care about him and don't
abuse him. Children learn what they live. If you treat a child with
punishment and harsh discipline as a toddler, expect to have this
returned 7 fold when he is a teenager.

If this is true as you claimed why is the crime rate so in the 50's?
Why is it so low in Singapore?

Harsh punishment can produce a population that is too scared to
act in opposition to authority no matter how illegitimate that
authority is. That isn't a society, I want to live in despite a low
crime rate. The crime rate was low in Iraq too if you don't count
the attrocities of those in power.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:18:51 -0800, Doan wrote:

Yep. This is exactly so because all punishments are essentially the
same, but positive methods allow for the differences that parents see.

Then it should be easy to prove. Again, just put the alternatives to
same statiscal scrutiny as with spanking.

Time outs used as punishment are not positive discipline.
Nor is lecturing or scolding or any of the *other* methods that
were studied.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 00:49:30 -0800, Doan wrote:

It would be more effective to teach the parents to use positive
methods when the child is much younger. And it is much more
effective too, if a child has parents who care about him and don't
abuse him. Children learn what they live. If you treat a child with
punishment and harsh discipline as a toddler, expect to have this
returned 7 fold when he is a teenager.

If this is true as you claimed why is the crime rate so in the 50's?
Why is it so low in Singapore?

Harsh punishment can produce a population that is too scared to
act in opposition to authority no matter how illegitimate that
authority is. That isn't a society, I want to live in despite a low
crime rate. The crime rate was low in Iraq too if you don't count
the attrocities of those in power.

You are not comparing the USA in the 50's and Singapore with Iraq, are
you? :-) Let's me remind you that it took external powers to remove
Sadam.

Doan

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:18:51 -0800, Doan wrote:

Yep. This is exactly so because all punishments are essentially the
same, but positive methods allow for the differences that parents see.

Then it should be easy to prove. Again, just put the alternatives to
same statiscal scrutiny as with spanking.

Time outs used as punishment are not positive discipline.
Nor is lecturing or scolding or any of the *other* methods that
were studied.

In other words, your THEORY is unproven!

Doan

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 07:03:50 -0600, toto
wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:18:51 -0800, Doan wrote:

Yep. This is exactly so because all punishments are essentially
the
same, but positive methods allow for the differences that parents
see.

Then it should be easy to prove. Again, just put the alternatives
to
same statiscal scrutiny as with spanking.

Time outs used as punishment are not positive discipline.
Nor is lecturing or scolding or any of the *other* methods that
were studied.

Doan's only argument, of course, will be asking you to provide
citations and data from peer reviewed studies that support: lecturing;
scolding; *other* methods not working.

He has used the infamous logical fallacy for years here (to the point
he has bored his opponents to the point of ignoring him) of
"slanting," that is picking only the evidence that supports his
argument (the declaration by Straus) and ignoring all mass of other
evidence that buries him.

I've never seen him, for instance, respond to the Embry Street Entry
study with anything but the usual blind hysteria neurotic responses of
all his pro spanking buddies, his phony declarations to neutrality
notwithstanding.

And all "positive discipline" really is is just teaching to the needs
of the child, and her actual capacities at developmental level.

Doan seems to think that because those that spank also use SOME
rational means of teaching their children then spanking somehow is a
positive factor in learning. Talk about Cargo Cult Mentallity.

The only reason children turn out as well as they do (and I notice
more than a few don't) is that humans are so resiliant and can survive
a lot of trauma. I don't consider that parenting, of course; for the
child to just survive.

Kane

Doan wrote in message ...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:40:19 -0800, Doan wrote:

This is a noble goal. However, the question that have to be asked is
: how effective is it? Remember that we are dealing with imperfect
human beings!

It's more effective than spanking.
With some kids, yes; with all kids, I doubt it!

And it is more effective than behaviorism.
And your proof is?

You do have to make the effort to be consistent
and to actually listen to your child, but it works and its worth it.
Sure kids will still *misbehave* some. After all they are learning
and they are not going to be perfect either, but for the most part
children who are listened to and disciplined positively act up much
less than children who have been punished.

For most part - not all. Every child is different. The be effective,
you have to know the child. There is no one size fit all.

Note: I have a little boy in my class currently who looks angry
and hits. I talked to his dad at the Italian dinner and this child is
basically very much given rules and expected to stick to them
and spanked when he doesn't. He is the child who hits others
and then turns around and tattles on them when they are not
following the rules.

And you generalize from this one kid to the whole nation?

This has been something I have consistently observed with the children
in my class who are punished (especially those whose parents say they
spank as discipline).

Very "scientific", Dorothy! ;-)

R R R R

Like your contributions are "scientific" R R R R

Doan

With his head up his ass even further Doan demonstrates the pure logic
of his arguments...that the weather forecast up his claoca is sunshine
all day long and you should all take a sunbath...R R R R

Kane

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 10:20:09 -0800, Doan wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 00:49:30 -0800, Doan wrote:

It would be more effective to teach the parents to use positive
methods when the child is much younger. And it is much more
effective too, if a child has parents who care about him and
don't
abuse him. Children learn what they live. If you treat a child
with
punishment and harsh discipline as a toddler, expect to have
this
returned 7 fold when he is a teenager.

If this is true as you claimed why is the crime rate so in the
50's?
Why is it so low in Singapore?

Harsh punishment can produce a population that is too scared to
act in opposition to authority no matter how illegitimate that
authority is. That isn't a society, I want to live in despite a
low
crime rate. The crime rate was low in Iraq too if you don't count
the attrocities of those in power.

You are not comparing the USA in the 50's and Singapore with Iraq,

Why would she do that? The 50's USA was not crime free, and it did not
oppress it's citizens. The comparison, for those with their brains not
addled by being spanked too high up the back..such as you..would know
and understand she is talking about freedom from oppression.

This is the the kind of garbage you'll always posted and always will,
stupid, inane, and pointless crap.

are
you? :-) Let's me remind you that it took external powers to remove
Sadam.

Which is relevant to what she said how?


Doan


Kane

On 22 Nov 2003 10:55:24 -0800, (Kane)
wrote:

Note: I have a little boy in my class currently who looks angry
and hits. I talked to his dad at the Italian dinner and this child is
basically very much given rules and expected to stick to them
and spanked when he doesn't. He is the child who hits others
and then turns around and tattles on them when they are not
following the rules.

And you generalize from this one kid to the whole nation?

This has been something I have consistently observed with the children
in my class who are punished (especially those whose parents say they
spank as discipline).

Very "scientific", Dorothy! ;-)

R R R R

Like your contributions are "scientific" R R R R

Aside from that in 30 years there have been many not just one child
like this.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 10:23:00 -0800, Doan wrote:

Time outs used as punishment are not positive discipline.
Nor is lecturing or scolding or any of the *other* methods that
were studied.

In other words, your THEORY is unproven!

All social science conclusions are unproven, but the evidence is
clear if you look around you.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits