Personal space

dejablues wrote in message
...
I agree. It's Allisons room, Allisons stuff, let her police it. If she
needs
a lock and her own key, so be it.
If one of my older sons complains because one of the younger ones got into
his stuff, I say "Oh well, I guess you didn't care enough about it to put
it
where he couldn't get it!" I refuse to monitor their belongings.


Really? I hadn't thought of that to be honest. I would have thought that I
needed to teach Kara to respect other people's belongings and to learn to
ask before she uses other people's things. Kara still gets into my things a
fair amount and I want her to ask me before she uses something of mine. I
have told Allison that she needs to hide her more important things so Kara
doesn't get it, but the problem is that Kara goes into the attic of
Allison's room and pulls out all of her things and sometimes breaks it.

And to Steve (who I can't see unless someone keeps his post) Allison has hit
Kara over this, but that isn't accetable to me. I would rather that Allison
uses her words over her fists.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

Nikki wrote in message
I'm not a huge fan of reward systems but it might wotk this time. There
really is no huge negative here. She gets the object, she gets her
sibling
upset (which IIRC from when I was a kid is not a bad thing at all ;-) and
she causes a ruckus, which isn't so bad either! If she can stay out of
her
sisters room for xxx amount of time she earns a special reward (activity
or
item depending on kid). If Kara does better at staying out is Allison old
enough to bite the bullet and invite Kara in for a special play session in
her room every once in a while. Really dote on her little sister. They
could trade and then you could help Kara set up a special play session in
her room that she would invite Allison to. That might help her get a
grasp
on ownership. I hope you get some more experienced answers!


Hi Nikki,

You know I have been putting some thought into a reward system for this and
I did try it yesterday and as someone mentioned, Allison said that isn't
fair. Why should she get something for staying out of my room. So then I
replied, well then you get a reward if you don't hit her when she does come
in your room. So I am not sure if that strategy is going to work. I may need
to refine this somehow, lol. I did try yesterday and told Kara that if she
stayed out of Allison's room until dinner time that she would get a bubble
gum. She didn't make it. It was only about an hour later and we discovered
that Kara went into Allison's room and took out her stuff. So one day
doesn't make it I know. And I did have a talk with Allison yesterday about
trying to let Kara come in every once in a while and playing with her.
Allison's things are interesting to Kara so I can understand that they are
new to her, but shouldn't Kara have some restraint as well?
--
Sue
mom to three girls

Welches wrote in message
I'd have thought that could cause problems with Allison. From Allison's
perspective Kara shouldn't be taking her things, so why should she be
rewarded for not doing so?
I'd be clear that Allison has to respect Kara's room too. I think knocking
before entering each others rooms and waiting for permission from either
the
owner or parents if they're out, will go some way to showing some respect.
I think if she breaks something she has borrowed with or without
permission
she should at least apologise. My brother used to borrow things and then
they'd slide under his bed and if they were seen again (for many years!)
they were often damaged and it made me very reluctant to let him have
things
of mine.
I'd agree that perhaps Allison's reaction may be making it "worth" doing.
Perhaps talking with Allison and letting her see that you are on her side
on
this and she needs to come to you without reacting to Kara, might help.
Depending on Allison's age maybe you could consider a lock on the door. I
don't usually like locks. Maybe a chain/bolt too high for Kara on the
outside so she can't get in easily when Allison's out.
Debbie

Ah I hadn't thought about the negative attention that Allison could be
giving her. I will try to work on that angle. I do think that some sort of
lock is going to have to be put up. And you are right in that Allison didn't
think it was fair for Kara to be getting a reward for staying out of her
room. I tried that yesterday and it didn't go over well and Kara wasn't able
to stay out of her room for the period I had set up. I do make Kara tell
Allison she is sorry and I make her clean up her mess each and every time.

Thank you.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

Hi Dorothy,

I have thought about that because there are other issues that Kara has that
has had me thinking lately that things are just not right with her. I read
the link that you gave me and she has quite a lot of the symptoms. The one
that bothers me the most is that Kara can't tolerate when I vacuum. She puts
her hands over her ears and cries for me to turn it off. There are certain
songs that come on the radio that she has a fit over. I am confused about
the touch thing, but Kara is very touchy/feely and I have noticed with even
the teachers at school that she has her hands on them, not all the time,
but enough for me to have to say something to her about it. My husband
thinks they way she is because she is the last and her sisters leave her out
and are not exactly the nicest to her, so Kara is reacting at that. Kara
seems to be smart, but totally not interested in learning to read or do
other little things we have tried to do over the summer. Would this be
something that the teachers in first grade would have an input on? What is
the testing process? Who would I see to rule something like this out?

Thanks Dorothy for any input you could give.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

toto wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:29:51 -0700, "Sue"
wrote:

Hi everyone,

I need some consequences and/or how to teach my 6-year-old, Kara, to stay
out of her older sister's (Allison) room. Kara takes her belongings
without
asking and it either ends up getting torn up or at the very least, it
really
upsets Allison. We are trying to teach her to ask first before she just
takes something, but nothing we are doing is working and it has become a
huge negative process. It is causing Allison to be mean to Kara and it is
causing us great stress. Kara is having a hard time understanding
personal
space and I am at a loss on how to teach it. It seems the my other two
girls
learned personal space without too much involvement from me. Kara is a
very
touchy/feeling kid, but she takes it too far. She doesn't know when to
quit. Most people end up getting upset with her and then I feel horrible.
Very close friends are able to tell her to get down and sometimes she
listens, but most of the time it involves me having to get her away from
whoever she is bugging. Any suggestions for me? Thanks so much.

Consequences may not work very well with a child like this.

Have you investigated Sensory Integration Dysfunction? It is
possilble that a child who *needs* deep touch has this disorder
Many of these kids need treatment and help from an Occupational
Therapist (weird name for what they do, but that is what they are
called).

Every child has a different regulatory and sensory profile, and that
these activities are not appropriate or useful for every child. You
should get guidance from an occupational therapist or other individual
who is experienced with sensory integration.

For information you might want to read:
Kranowitz, Carol Stock. The Out-of-Sync Child: Recognizing and Coping
with Sensory Integration Dysfunction. 1998. New York: The Berkley
Publishing Group.

http://www.geocities.com/~kasmom/sid.html



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

"Sue" wrote in message ...
Hi everyone,

I need some consequences and/or how to teach my 6-year-old, Kara, to stay
out of her older sister's (Allison) room. Kara takes her belongings without
asking and it either ends up getting torn up or at the very least, it really
upsets Allison. We are trying to teach her to ask first before she just
takes something, but nothing we are doing is working and it has become a
huge negative process. It is causing Allison to be mean to Kara and it is
causing us great stress. Kara is having a hard time understanding personal
space and I am at a loss on how to teach it. It seems the my other two girls
learned personal space without too much involvement from me. Kara is a very
touchy/feeling kid, but she takes it too far. She doesn't know when to
quit. Most people end up getting upset with her and then I feel horrible.
Very close friends are able to tell her to get down and sometimes she
listens, but most of the time it involves me having to get her away from
whoever she is bugging. Any suggestions for me? Thanks so much.


My 11 YO daughter is JUST like this, so I'm awaiting advice with
baited breath! It drives me nuts because I'm definately her biggest
target. She helps herself to my jewelery box, my wallet, my magazines,
my scarves, and my shoes. That last one is the killer because she has
REALLY stinky teenage feet and man, I don't want to put my shoes on
after she's snuck them out of the house.

I was so concerned about this behaviour and my lack of personal space
that I talked to both her pediatrician and her psychopharmacologist
about it. Both seem to feel that this is common with ADD kids (not
that your daughter is ADD, but mine is) and that the often don't pick
up the subtilties of privacy and personal space. My child really does
not get privacy at all. She often showers with the bathroom door open,
she walks into the john when I'm peeing, and she has no problem with
disturbing my room or her brother's room.

My solution was to put a hasp and padlock on my bedroom door because
she didn't get it and she was getting into things that were private
and none of her business, like my bond certificates! I don't like
living like this, but it is the ONLY way to keep her out of my stuff.
Her brother has built and maintains a 'burgler alarm' that sounds an
alarm when she enters his room.

None of this really bothers her. She doesn't understand that this is
not how normal people live. But for my own peace of mind, this is how
I am handling the situation at present. I wouldn't recommend my
solution to anyone. It is an absolute PIA to have to remember a
combination every time you want to go into your room. (She can pick
pretty much any simple keyed lock!)

Marjorie

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 07:43:58 -0700, "Sue"
wrote:

Hi Dorothy,

I have thought about that because there are other issues that Kara has that
has had me thinking lately that things are just not right with her. I read
the link that you gave me and she has quite a lot of the symptoms. The one
that bothers me the most is that Kara can't tolerate when I vacuum. She puts
her hands over her ears and cries for me to turn it off. There are certain
songs that come on the radio that she has a fit over. I am confused about
the touch thing, but Kara is very touchy/feely and I have noticed with even
the teachers at school that she has her hands on them, not all the time,
but enough for me to have to say something to her about it. My husband
thinks they way she is because she is the last and her sisters leave her out
and are not exactly the nicest to her, so Kara is reacting at that. Kara
seems to be smart, but totally not interested in learning to read or do
other little things we have tried to do over the summer. Would this be
something that the teachers in first grade would have an input on? What is
the testing process? Who would I see to rule something like this out?

Thanks Dorothy for any input you could give.

Does she go to school? If so, you may want to speak with her teacher
and ask for an evaluation by the school's assessment team which may
include and occupational therapist. If they don't have an OT on
staff, they may be able to provide a name for you. Or you may want
to ask her pediatrician for a referral to an OT.

You can also call a children's hospital and ask for a referral to an
OT trained in SI.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

Hi Rosalie,
I would let Allison do her thing, and if she has to be mean to Kara,
let her. That's a good natural consequence that doesn't involve the
parents. Not that she should physically hurt her little sister (and
why does she only do this with Allison's stuff and not with the other
sister), but shouting or being upset will get the idea across better
than anything the parents could do.

I think she only does this to Allison's room because Jenny and Kara share a
room and Allison's things are nice and neat and taken care of. I think it is
alluring for Kara.

The only other thing I would advise is that if Kara came to me for
sympathy, I would totally not give it to her. "You broke Allison's
xyz, and she's justifiably annoyed at you and I am too. You know
better".

I do that to a degree, but there have been times Allison has hauled off and
hit Kara and then Kara comes running to me that she is hurt. I comforted her
being hurt, but tell her that she did deserve it because she is not
respecting Allison's wishes.

This isn't an uncontrollable 2 year old anymore. Stop making excuses
for her.

I didn't think I was making excuses, but shouldn't I be trying to teach Kara
personal space and respect of other people's belongings?

My granddaughter and grandson (age 7 and 10) are here now, and the
little girl comes to her mother fake crying because her brother is
doing this or that or the other thing. My DIL doesn't seem to see
that a) she should tell the brother to stop and enforce it and b) that
she shouldn't encourage the girl to whine and tattle.

I get that all day long with my three. I tell you, it is wearing me out.

Thanks.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

Sue wrote in message
...
Silvasurfa wrote in message
If she's old enough to have an allowance she might understand being
forced to pay replacement cost on broken items.

We have cut out the allowance, but they are able to do extra things around
the house to earn money, but at six, Kara isn't motivated by money yet to
have any. But I do agree that if she had the money that some things should
have been replaced. I will research the lock. As I mentioned, I need a
skeleton key or perhaps I can just put a hook on the outside, but Kara
would
be able to get a stool and unlock it.

I don't think docking pocket money at that age makes much difference unless
they're saving for something. Possibly something like "oh dear you'll have
to pay for that from the money we would have used when we go to cinema/etc
next week. so you'll have to stay behind" or "you'll have to buy a new one
rather than that comic I was going to get you" would have more effect. My
fil used to dock pocket money off dh + brothers, but dh has a very clear
memory of being docked 2p (out of 5p pocket money) and deciding that he
hadn't actually been naughty-fil was just short of money that week and
needed the 2p. He would have been 6 at the time. :-)

If she has to get a chair to unlock it she has to "think" about doing it
before hand-and possibly the consequences. If the door's just open maybe she
goes in on the spur of the moment.
Alternatively you can get those hooks that can have a padlock attached (used
mostly for garden gates or sheds round here) which you can put on the
outside. That way you don't have to worry about Allison locking herself in.
If you do that though I'd make sure Allison takes the padlock inside with
her otherwise someone might think it funny to lock her inside. I'm sure if
my sister had a lock on the outside of the door I'd have thought that very
funny!
Debbie

"Tom P" wrote in message
news
Steve, I keep reading your post and I coulnd't agree less with you.
First,
blaming the older child for not putting things away can only teach Kara
that
it will be OK to take the neighbor's ball because he left it on his lawn
for
anybody to take it.

You are right. I was always wrong for complaining about my brother, but he
was never in trouble for invading my space and privacy. My mom doesn't
think privacy is important for anyone. My brother never learned. Well, he
did, he just learned what my mom believed. In fact, he doesn't think
anything should be private between family. Neither of them can understand
why I don't want them barging up into our room uninvited whenever. My
brother takes my things without asking and thinks it's okay because we're
family. They don't understand why I get upset. Good thing they don't live
next door.

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
x-no-archive:yes "toypup" wrote:


"dejablues" wrote in message
...
I agree. It's Allisons room, Allisons stuff, let her police it. If she
needs
a lock and her own key, so be it.
If one of my older sons complains because one of the younger ones got
into
his stuff, I say "Oh well, I guess you didn't care enough about it to
put
it
where he couldn't get it!" I refuse to monitor their belongings.

What if there's no place the older one could put it where the younger
ones
can't get at it?

Where do you put things the children shouldn't get into? There's
always a way to do it otherwise it wouldn't be a safe house to be in.

When they are toddlers, it's easy. When they are older, there aren't many
places you could put something that they can't reach with some ingenuity.
When they are older, I don't expect that I should be trying to preteenproof
something. I expect them to stay out of what they are supposed to stay out
of, though I would lock up a gun (but I would never own one).