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A praise report. PRAISE GOD!!!
A well known leader and critic of me at my christian university who
believes she is called to the pastorial ministry apologized to me today for her many attacks and criticism of the biblical views that I stand for over the years. Over the years me and this individual have been in many debates. Sometimes resulting in name calling and such. There are about 5-6 critics that follow me around from course to course and are always the ones to criticize the biblical views that I teach or suggest in ministry, theology and bible courses. Two of the biggest issues with these critics is that I am a well known critic of the Emerging Church, and I am in favor of the biblical view of manhood and womanhood, which clearly states that a woman shall not teach or have spiritual authority over a man. For me what happened today is a joy. I was told that this former critic used to warn other female and male students about me and my views so I am still looked at in a negative light by some here. I know this because I have been approached by people whom I've never met who already know where I stand theologicially and biblically on issues. They would not have know this, except for the persistent critics that I have. But praise the Lord that one repented! These boards are for christians to encourage each other and report praise requests. So anyone else report your praise reports. John |
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An idiot wrote:
A well known leader and critic of me at my christian university who believes she is called to Somebody please help me here. I have forgotten how many names Jason Gaytrich uses when he posts to himself or when he is looking for gay tricks. Is this Johnw94 one of Jason's aliases or is it someone else? It sounds so ego-filled that it could be Jason Gay-trich or John "I'm an idiot" Weatherly. |
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Congratulations on the progress. Sounds like he softened his heart a bit.
I'm always glad when someone grows closer to the message of salvation. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org www.mormons.com wrote in message oups.com... A well known leader and critic of me at my christian university who believes she is called to the pastorial ministry apologized to me today for her many attacks and criticism of the biblical views that I stand for over the years. Over the years me and this individual have been in many debates. Sometimes resulting in name calling and such. There are about 5-6 critics that follow me around from course to course and are always the ones to criticize the biblical views that I teach or suggest in ministry, theology and bible courses. Two of the biggest issues with these critics is that I am a well known critic of the Emerging Church, and I am in favor of the biblical view of manhood and womanhood, which clearly states that a woman shall not teach or have spiritual authority over a man. For me what happened today is a joy. I was told that this former critic used to warn other female and male students about me and my views so I am still looked at in a negative light by some here. I know this because I have been approached by people whom I've never met who already know where I stand theologicially and biblically on issues. They would not have know this, except for the persistent critics that I have. But praise the Lord that one repented! These boards are for christians to encourage each other and report praise requests. So anyone else report your praise reports. John |
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The gates of free.christians slowly swung open, and there stood "Bev
A. Kupf" ,who intoned thus: On 22 Apr 2005 23:01:02 -0700, ) wrote: I was told that this former critic used to warn other female and male students about me and my views so I am still looked at in a negative light by some here. John - wake up and smell the coffee. No one at Simpson who has spoken to me has anything other than a negative view of you. The one thought about you that I've heard consistently is that you're referred to as "schizo" by other students at Simpson. Beverly Now why doesn't that surprise me?: 1113929323.1ac5f4157bc8c7c25bbf5c82b30f7b36@terane ws 19 Apr 2005 09:48:34 -0700 21 Apr 2005 06:58:39 GMT 23 Apr 2005 05:31:06 GMT David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208 Due to be prayed for by Gastrich 11.3.2011 |
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On 22 Apr 2005 23:01:02 -0700, wrote:
A well known leader and critic of me at my christian university who believes she is called to the pastorial ministry apologized to me today for her many attacks and criticism of the biblical views that I stand for over the years. Over the years me and this individual have been in many debates. Sometimes resulting in name calling and such. There are about 5-6 critics that follow me around from course to course and are always the ones to criticize the biblical views that I teach or suggest in ministry, theology and bible courses. Two of the biggest issues with these critics is that I am a well known critic of the Emerging Church, and I am in favor of the biblical view of manhood and womanhood, which clearly states that a woman shall not teach or have spiritual authority over a man. For me what happened today is a joy. I was told that this former critic used to warn other female and male students about me and my views so I am still looked at in a negative light by some here. I know this because I have been approached by people whom I've never met who already know where I stand theologicially and biblically on issues. They would not have know this, except for the persistent critics that I have. But praise the Lord that one repented! These boards are for christians to encourage each other and report praise requests. So anyone else report your praise reports. John John, John could it be that the reason that Christians know where you stand is because God warned them. If that is the case you might want to ask yourself why God would be warning them and then change your thinking patterns and behavior. With regard to your views on the role of women in the church, consider the following: Should Women Keep Silence In The Church? There are those who teach that women should not be allowed to teach the Word of God and that they should keep silence in the church. This can not be true because God is not a respector of persons, because women are ambassadors for Christ, women have been given the ministry and word of reconciliation, because women have authority to utilize the manifestations of the spirit, because there are women prophets and a prophet is a spokesperson for God, etc. . To deny a woman what God has ordained her to do is wrong because it is contrary to the word of God, because it prevents her from earning eternal rewards, and because it robs the body of Christ of her God given abilities. The following verses say the God is not a respecter of persons. Act 10:34 KJV Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Eph 6:9 KJV And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him. Col 3:25 KJV But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons. Jam 2:1 KJV My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons. Jam 2:9 KJV But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 1Pe 1:17 KJV And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear: Not only does the Word of God say that God is not a respecter of persons, it also says that those who do have respect of persons commit sin and are convinced of the law as transgressors. Our Father, who without respect of persons, judgeth according to every man's work. God does not respect persons, but conditions. Those who meet the conditions for rewards are rewarded and those who do not meet the conditions are not rewarded. A woman who is prevented from performing service to the body of Christ is not able to earn rewards that her male counterparts are able to earn because they are not given the opportunity to do so. Christians are saved by grace. However, eternal rewards are earned by works performed in service to the body of Christ. Women who are deprived of the opportunity to serve the body are prevented from earning eternal rewards. Also, the body of Christ is denied what the woman is able to supply. This "policy" has been around for centuries. Think about it. How many millions of women have been prevented from earning eternal rewards. How many millions of members of the body of Christ have been denied service and how many millions of people may not have been saved because women are not allowed to serve the body of Christ? The policy existed before the King James Bible was published but for the sake of illustration let's use a starting date of 1611 when the KJV Bible was published. How many Christian women have lived since the year 1611? How many members have been added to the body of Christ since 1611? How many of the members could have been helped by a woman had she been allowed to help? How many women have been unable to earn eternal rewards because they were not allowed to serve? How many people have lived since the year 1611? The rest of this study deals with verses which are used to deprive women of the opportunity to serve the body of Christ. 1Co 14:34 KJV Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1Ti 2:11 KJV Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 1Ti 2:12 KJV But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 1Ti 2:13 KJV For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 1Ti 2:14 KJV And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 1Ti 2:15 KJV Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. We will see that these verses are speaking about specific women in specific circumstances and not to women as gender. We need to understand a very important word before we continue our study. The word that we need to study is "man." In English we use the word "man" to refer to a male person or to a human person that can include women or children when it is used to mean "mankind." The New Testament was translated from Greek and there are many different words translated "man" in the Greek. Sometimes "man" is the translation of of the masculine of adjectives or nouns, etc. When it is the translation of a separate Greek word it is one of the following. (1) anthropos - an individual of the human race, a man or a woman. (2) aner - a man, an adult male person, a man in sex and in age. (3) tis - one, some one, a certain one. (4) arren - male, of the male sex. (5) arsen - male, of the male sex. (6) teleios - what has reached its end, persons of full age, full grown. (7) oudies - not any one In he Bible the word "man" is often put for both sexes, men and women, by the figure of speech Synecdoche of the Species where words of a limited and special sense are used with a wider and more universal meaning p. 624, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible Explained and Illustrated, by E W Bullinger. The translators of the KJV were very liberal with the masucline English pronouns and nouns, maybe a little to liberal. Below is the verse that people use to say that women are to keep silent in the church. Does the verse say "women keep silence in the church?" Yes it does say "Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it not permitted unto them to speak, etc." 1Co 14:34 KJV Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. Apparent contradictdions in the Word of God come from only two sources or a combination of both. An apparent contradiction stems from either error in translation or error in understanding. The first step to understanding what the Word of God says is to read the words in the Word in context. We will begin at the start of the chapter. Please note that the words in brackets "[ ]" are the words in italics in the King James Version of the Bible. They were placed in italics to tell us that the words were added by the writers of the King James Version. It was often necessary to "add" words due to the different structures of the Greek and English languages or when the figure Ellipsis is used. The words "they are commanded" were added by the translators and are not needed for the sense. 1Co 14:34 KJV Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1Co 14:34 KJV (without italics) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but to be under obedience, as also saith the law. The words were not needed to translate the sense of the verse. They were added by the translators for some other purpose. Below is the English word for word translation of the verse from a Greek Interlinear. "Your women in the assemblies let them be silent for it is not allowed to them to speak but to be in subjection according as also the law says." Let's examine the verse in the context. 1Co 14:1 KJV Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy. The "ye" refers men and women of the church who were Gentiles. 1Co 14:2 KJV For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. The words "he that speaketh" and "he speaketh" are translated from the verb "laleo" which does not include the masculine pronoun. The pronoun was supplied by the translators without placing "he" in italics. The word "men" is "anthropos" means humans. The word "man" is from "oudice", and means "not anyone." Therefore, a more accurate rendering of the verse would be: For [one] speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto humans, but unto God; for not anyone understandeth; howbeit in the spirit [one] speaketh mysteries. Here is how other versions translate the verse: 1Co 14:2 NASB For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 1Co 14:2 RSV For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 1Co 14:2 ISV For the person who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands him, because he is speaking secrets in the Spirit. 1Co 14:3 KJV But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort. The pronoun "he" was added by the translators without italics. The word "men" is from "anthropos" and means humans. The NASB translates it as follows, translating "anthropos" as men to represent the human species. 1Co 14:3 NASB But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. 1Co 14:4 KJV He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. The pronouns "he" should be in italics because there are no pronouns with the Greek verbs. The NASB supplies the neuter "one" in place of "he". 1Co 14:4 NASB One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. 1Co 14:5 KJV I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. The pronouns "he" should be in italics because there are no pronouns with the Greek verbs. The NASB repalces "he" with "one" to show that it is neuter. 1Co 14:5 NASB Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying. 1Co 14:6 KJV Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 1Co 14:7 KJV And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 1Co 14:8 KJV For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? 1Co 14:9 KJV So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. 1Co 14:10 KJV There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them [is] without signification. 1Co 14:11 KJV Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh [shall be] a barbarian unto me. The NASB supplies "one" in lieu of "he" to show the statement is neuter. 1Co 14:11 NASB If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me. 1Co 14:12 KJV Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual [gifts], seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 1Co 14:13 KJV Wherefore let him that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue pray that he may interpret. "Him" is supplied by translator with the verb. The NASB corrects the problem with "him" but leaves "he" which is not in he Greek text. The problem here is two theologies. One group says that the person that speaks in a tongue does the interpreting and the other groups says a different person supplies the interpretation. In the NASB the "he" is added to refer back to the one who speaks and so even though a masculine pronoun is used it is used in a neuter sense because it relates to the neuter "one". 1Co 14:13 NASB Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 1Co 14:14 KJV For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1Co 14:15 KJV What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 1Co 14:16 KJV Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 1Co 14:17 KJV For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. 1Co 14:18 KJV I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 1Co 14:19 KJV Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue. 1Co 14:20 KJV Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. The word "men" from "teleios" means that which has reached its end, its full age, old people male or female. It means "in understanding be adults." 1Co 14:21 KJV In the law it is written, With [men of] other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. The translators added "[men of]" which should not be there because it reads "with other tongues and other lips will I" speak. God can not speak with tongues and lips because He doesn't have any. The point is that God's words are released through the tongues and lips of His children. 1Co 14:22 KJV Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1Co 14:23 KJV If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? Who comprises the whole church? Men and women comprise the whole church. And we are talking about what is decent and in order. 1Co 14:24 KJV But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 1Co 14:25 KJV And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. 1Co 14:26 KJV How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 1Co 14:27 KJV If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret. "If any man" is "If any one" from "tis". 1Co 14:28 KJV But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. The pronouns "him" is added to the translation of the verb. So the text reads, But if there be no interpreter, keep silence in the church. 1Co 14:29 KJV Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. Who are the prophets? Men and women with gift ministries. A prophet is one who speaks for God. Men and woman are ordained by God to be prophets. So why would a woman prophet whose job it is to speak for God keep her mouth shut? Are there women prophets? Yes they are called phrophetesses and there eight verses that speak of them Exo 15:20; Jdg 4:4; 2Ki 22:14; 2Ch 34:22; Neh 6:14; Isa 8:3; Luk 2:36; Rev 2:20 as true or false prophetesses. 1Co 14:30 KJV If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. "His" is another translation of the verb. 1Co 14:31 KJV For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. Verse 31 says that "all" may prophesy and includes women. 1Co 14:32 KJV And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. The spirits of the men and women prophets are subject to the men and women prophets. 1Co 14:33 KJV For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. God is not only not of confusion, but of peace, in all the churches of the saints and does not prohibit women who serve gift ministries from speaking. 1Co 14:34 KJV Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. What word is the word "women" translated from from? The Greek word is "gune" and means "woman, a wife". The wives of the prophets are to keep silent. Verse 35 confirms that these were wives because it says they are to ask their husbands at home. 1Co 14:35 KJV And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1Co 14:36 KJV What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 1Co 14:37 KJV If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. The words "any man" is "any one" from "tis" and are neuter 1Co 14:38 KJV But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. The words "any man" are any one from "tis" are are neuter. The word "him" is part of the translation of the verb. 1Co 14:39 KJV Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 1Co 14:40 KJV Let all things be done decently and in order. You can use the same methods to follow gender in the twelfth and thirteen chapters and get the same results. We will now examine he verses in First Timothy. Remember, the Word of God has to be read in context. Remember, too, that the Greek word translated "woman" is "gune" and means woman, wife while the word that means "female" is "thelus" as in Rom 1:26,27. God wrote through Paul to Timothy, the man of God, a prophet and begins the chapter exhorting people to pray followed by the statement that He would have all men saved and come unto a knowledge of the truth. The word "men" in vese four is translated from "anthropos", a human without regard to gender, There are other words for "male" that God could have used, but He chose "anthropos" which includes women. God would have all men and women saved and come unto a knowledge of the truth. 1Ti 2:1 KJV I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; 1Ti 2:2 KJV For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 1Ti 2:3 KJV For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 1Ti 2:4 KJV Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 1Ti 2:5 KJV For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1Ti 2:6 KJV Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1Ti 2:7 KJV Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 1Ti 2:8 KJV I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. God wills "men" to pray and here the Greek word for men is "aner", a male, a husband. 1Ti 2:9 KJV In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; The word "women" is from "gune" and refers to the wives of the men. This is established by the verses below that speak of Eve, Adam's wife, and the giving birth of children which applies to married women. 1Ti 2:10 KJV But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 1Ti 2:11 KJV Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 1Ti 2:12 KJV But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 1Ti 2:13 KJV For Adam was first formed, then Eve. Who was Eve? Eve was Adam’s wife. 1Ti 2:14 KJV And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 1Ti 2:15 KJV Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. The context and the words used in this section of scripture makes it clear that the women spoken of are married women. To prohibit women who have been ordained to the ministry from speaking is not the will of God. Why would God give the ministry of reconcilation to women or ordain them as prophets if they were not allowed to speak in the church? BB Non-commercial website where everything is free. http://www.biblebob.net BB |
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