If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#101
|
|||
|
|||
Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
"Nevermind" wrote in message om... The comparison of school to a job is flawed, I think. An employer pays you to do work for them. Of course you owe it to them to show up, and of course they can and should fire you if you don't do your job. However, one does not send a child to school for the school's sake, and one is not beholden to a school the way one is to a paying employer. I think the only comparison is that the state, and taxpayers are paying for your child's public school education, so the state gets a say in how that education is implemented. If you are paying for your child's education (private school) you have more say. It could be argued that a child's "job" in school is to learn, and if she is learning just as much or more out of school, then. . . That said, I did already tell the OP that, basically, I didn't think it was fair to the teacher to take her child out of school at random. Though her child may well benefit from "voluntary absences," if they are frequent and done without the teacher's prior approval, they are probably a big PITA for the teacher, and she doesn't need another one of those, I'm sure. I believe the PITA theory is part of the reason the states have been cracking down on absenses. The teachers unions and the educational administration are trying to add new programs, that take more teacher prep time outside of class without adding dramatically to the time teachers spend outside the classroom on school work. Correcting 20 tests, then 20 homework assignments is much more efficient than trying to find all the answer sheets for one kid. Another part of the equation is which kids are allowed to miss school. How "bright" do they have to be? Getting 100%? Passing? One school I volunteered in had a very bright 9 year old first grader. This was her 3rd year. She made it to approximately half the days of school. When she was in school she could do the work the first time, but unfortunately, if it built on stuff she missed she had a tough time. If her parents pulled together and got her to school enough to pass the rest of her grades in one year she would be 20 when she graduated from high school. What are the chances that child will ever graduate? This is the main reason for truency laws. The OP should investigate official part-time homeschooling. |
#102
|
|||
|
|||
Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
Banty wrote:
And, BTW, there's 180 days of school a year, covering only about 2/3 of a work day for each day. There's *plenty* of time for that outside school. IMO by far most of the reasons parents take their kids out of school for 'enrichment' it's really a matter of parental convenience such as cheaper travel, etc. I can fully understand why schools are cracking down on some of this. Our school district had our fall break last week. Tuesday was a half day, with parent-teacher conferences in the afternoon and evening. On Wednesday, school was dismissed at 11 am, and there was no school on Thursday and Friday. My next door neighbors are really ticked off at the school where their kids attend. This family went on vacation the week BEFORE fall break for a trip to the Florida beach. They got back onMonday, kept the kids home on the Tuesday half-day, and sent them to school for the Wednesday half-day. They can't understand why the absences are considered unexcused. They went to Disney and the beach. Nothing educational what-so-ever. These people don't believe in visiting museums. BTW, dad took off work the week before and the week of fall break, and mom is a SAHM. They could have waited a week and then the kids would only have missed 1 full day and 2 half-days. It's not such a big deal for the kindergartener and the second-grader, but their oldest daughter is in middle school now. She missed two tests that she knew about before they went on the trip, plus several other big assignments. The parents didn't have her do any of the work before going on their trip. It's their fault that her grades will be low on her report card. |
#103
|
|||
|
|||
Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
ColoradoSkiBum wrote:
: Oh, my dd : is at risk. Better threaten us with fines. I am really irate. Who came up : with such a stupid law? : : : Blame the zero-tolerance folks, the no child left behind folks... : : Bush anyone? : : : Bingo. And as far as I can tell, it's going to : get worse, not better. : Bull. If this were true, all schools would have such restrictive policies. They don't. It's coming. It just takes a while for the relevant laws to percolate down, and some school resist longer than others--until they get in trouble for "not following the rules" and experience draconian punishments and then have to implement draconian rules themselves as the lesser of two evils. Our school was much more liberal before we started getting letters home explaining that they were going to have to tighten up in some areas due to "No Child Left Behind" and other legislation. And, of course, many states have jumped on the bandwagon and are implementing requirements that are even more restrictive in the name of accountability. Best wishes, Ericka |
#104
|
|||
|
|||
Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
Michelle J. Haines wrote:
In article , h says... Blame the zero-tolerance folks, the no child left behind folks... Bush anyone? Zero-tolerance isn't Bush, it's a national idiocy. And this "everyone must be educated exactly the same way" garbage isn't his either. Weeeelllllll, yes it's a national idiocy, but he's jumped on the bandwagon and has the influence to help it spread. At the very least, he certainly hasn't stood in its way! And he supported a lot of "reforms" in that direction in Texas. Best wishes, Ericka |
#105
|
|||
|
|||
Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
Jenrose wrote:
Um, she *is* in a public school. Then I would prepare to see the school's flexibility whittled away, little by little. (Sorry to be cynical, but I'm afraid I'm not all that optimistic on this front.) I think our public school system is quite good and I am happy with the education my children are getting there, but I keep seeing more and more flexibility taken away by both state and national initiatives. snip This leaves kindergarteners with eight hours of homework and caffeine jitters at the age of five, carried to the logical conclusion. I don't want to even think about preschool. I hyperbolize, but you get the point. Absolutely. This is a very common attitude and getting more and more common. It was very important for us to find a program that let kids be kids without the heavy homework load. She has gone from no homework in kindergarten to not quite an hour in 5th grade on a "heavy" night, and never not been able to get her homework done working no more than 10 min x grade level every night. Thus, with reasonable, age-appropriate expectations (and how many emotionally average academically gifted kids get loaded with age inappropriate amounts of work when their "enrichments" pile on top of a normal workload....) she's actually developed study skills which seem rare in kids that bright. I agree with you 100 percent. I just think that public schools like this are going to get more and more rare in the current legislative environment. But the point is that *all* these programs operate with the same budgets the neighborhood schools get, per pupil. This is a red herring in most cases. The big player in funding for public schools is often how many "special" cases the school has to deal with (e.g., language barriers, severe learning disabilities, etc.). Schools that don't have to deal with these issues effectively have much more money to spend on the population at large. There are some who argue that this kind of program "saps" the neighborhood schools of the brightest kids. In my experience, neighborhood schools with a "standard" normal curriculum rarely make enough use of the brightest kids to justify keeping them. Except that the brightest kids drive up the test scores, and with test scores becoming so all-fired important, lowered test scores have very real impacts on all the students in a school. There's also a secondary effect--the brightest kids generally bring more affluent and more involved *parents* to the table, which translates into more money for the school (through the PTA) and all sorts of other advantages. What delights me about this program in particular is that it manages to provide an enriched learning environment for the same money to ALL kids at all ability levels. Isn't that how it *should* work? Shouldn't people be looking at taking this model out to the neighborhood schools? Absolutely. Programs that are working well should be looked at and their ideas co-opted wherever possible. However, I would be cautious about the money issue. If your school is really serving the full gamut of abilities on the same dollar, that's wonderful. Odds are, however, that it's not, nor is it likely coping with as high a percentage of the more difficult to educate children (extreme poverty, etc.). That's not to say that other schools shouldn't be taking a page from your school's book. From many of the things you've said, it sounds like there are a bunch of very valuable things that likely *would* help with no downside whatsoever. I'm just suggesting that sometimes the problem is a little more complicated than it first appears--and all these relatively recent legislative attempts towards accountability through testing and other "objective" standards are complicating the situation significantly. (I'm not against accountability per se, but I have a lot of heartburn with the way it's often implemented.) Best wishes, Ericka |
#106
|
|||
|
|||
Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
Banty wrote:
I do think there need to be some accelerated programs for bright kids. But on the other hand I don't sign on to this idea that it's necessarily utter disaster if there isn't. So - what, every farmer in a small rural district should up and sell the farm and move to get his kid into a GT program? Of course not. I see it both ways. Yes, *any* child should be able to cope with some boredom and learn to develop some initiative to find something constructive to do. I am totally unswayed by the boredom argument. However, I also believe that children ought to receive a reasonably appropriate education, and children who are way out there on the bell curve really aren't being served without some accommodation. With a little flexibility and willpower, most gifted kids *can* be accommodated, at least to some degree, in a normal classroom. I was in a "normal" classroom for all of elementary school (several different schools) and most of my teachers were willing to make all sorts of arrangements to keep me learning in a reasonable way. Sure, I was occasionally bored, but I don't see that as a downside. However, in most cases I *was* able to do more than just slog along with material I'd mastered years before. What I see today, though, is that while there are still some teachers/administrations willing to be flexible and make these accommodations, much of the flexibility has disappeared. I'm not sure why that is. Some is due to these accountability and standardization programs. Some may well be due to other factors. And, of course, I'm sure there are many people who *do* find acceptable accommodations and are reasonably happy with the results. I do seem to hear from more people now, however, that they've tried to find reasonable accommodations and haven't been successful. There is a *lot* that parents, and especially the child herself or himself, can do outside school to develop themselves and supplement their own learning. Hobbies, clubs, scouts, outside reading, travel. Absolutely, and I've always been a big proponent of that. Still, that doesn't totally excuse allowing school to be a waste of time when there are usually simple and not-too-intrusive things to do to alleviate at least *part* of that problem. And, BTW, there's 180 days of school a year, covering only about 2/3 of a work day for each day. There's *plenty* of time for that outside school. IMO by far most of the reasons parents take their kids out of school for 'enrichment' it's really a matter of parental convenience such as cheaper travel, etc. I can fully understand why schools are cracking down on some of this. I also agree with that. I don't really get the notion that every child must be catered to as an individual in every single way. If that's your definition of an acceptable education, homeschool or hire a tutor. (I realize that in some cases, that really *is* the only way to get any sort of acceptable education, but that doesn't apply to the majority of kids.) If you are part of a class, I think it's reasonable for students and parents to be thoughtful about the effects of their requests/actions on the teacher and other students in the class. Some things are just too intrusive to be reasonable, IMO. Other things, however, are quite reasonable, and should be implemented wherever necessary to provide the best education possible. Best wishes, Ericka |
#107
|
|||
|
|||
Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
In article , Ericka Kammerer says...
Banty wrote: What I see today, though, is that while there are still some teachers/administrations willing to be flexible and make these accommodations, much of the flexibility has disappeared. I'm not sure why that is. Some is due to these accountability and standardization programs. Some may well be due to other factors. And, of course, I'm sure there are many people who *do* find acceptable accommodations and are reasonably happy with the results. I do seem to hear from more people now, however, that they've tried to find reasonable accommodations and haven't been successful. I agree with your post, and I think it's a matter of balance. Why the increasing inflexibility? Well, I think it's two things. One is - yes - that focus on high-stakes test scores and other inappropriate measures. The other, though, is social deterioration. A generation ago - it *was* a big deal to ask for extra teacher prep for a child pulled out of school for an unusual situation or a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for travel. It happened, but not so often, and the situations brought up would be compelling. Now, it's any damn thing, cheaper ski trips, cheaper Disney, whatever, such that the sheer volume of such instances are unmanageable, and there's the snowballing effect of parents, tired of buying expensive airline tickets for an August vacation whilst hearing of their neighbors grabbing last-minute deals and pulling the kids out of school and getting accomodated, start doing the same thing. So the pendulum swings the other way, and the parents who *would* be very judicious about this matter are shut out, too. Old story of abuse of privelege. Banty |
#108
|
|||
|
|||
Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
In article , Banty says...
In article , Ericka Kammerer says... Banty wrote: What I see today, though, is that while there are still some teachers/administrations willing to be flexible and make these accommodations, much of the flexibility has disappeared. I'm not sure why that is. Some is due to these accountability and standardization programs. Some may well be due to other factors. And, of course, I'm sure there are many people who *do* find acceptable accommodations and are reasonably happy with the results. I do seem to hear from more people now, however, that they've tried to find reasonable accommodations and haven't been successful. I agree with your post, and I think it's a matter of balance. Why the increasing inflexibility? Well, I think it's two things. One is - yes - that focus on high-stakes test scores and other inappropriate measures. The other, though, is social deterioration. A generation ago - it *was* a big deal to ask for extra teacher prep for a child pulled out of school for an unusual situation or a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for travel. It happened, but not so often, and the situations brought up would be compelling. Now, it's any damn thing, cheaper ski trips, cheaper Disney, whatever, such that the sheer volume of such instances are unmanageable, and there's the snowballing effect of parents, tired of buying expensive airline tickets for an August vacation whilst hearing of their neighbors grabbing last-minute deals and pulling the kids out of school and getting accomodated, start doing the same thing. So the pendulum swings the other way, and the parents who *would* be very judicious about this matter are shut out, too. Old story of abuse of privelege. Following up on my own post - I can see you were more talking about accomodation of educational needs of bright kids and I went off on taking kids out of school :*) I think, as far as programs for bright kids, again yes it's the high stakes testing and the need to pull up as many kids as possible as far as what's on the test. And the tests being geared toward mastery of a set of requried skills rather than being challenging such that the brighter kids really would perform to their max. I think though that the thinking concerning bright kids 'gifted and talented' has been so much along the lines of specialized programs that simpler options, but which require flexibility, aren't considered as much or as carefully. If there isn't a GT or pullout or 'magnet' program, that's pretty much that. In my district, there's always the *intention* to do something, and that acutally gets in the way of anything effective that can be set up more short-term. The other thing is the need for higher efficiency and lack of attention and energy to specialized needs outside these programs becuase of fiscal pressures. Banty |
#109
|
|||
|
|||
Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
Chookie wrote in message ...
In article , "Vicki" wrote: We have discussed getting appropriate challenge in her classroom--the teacher has been helpful, but there is only so much she can do. We chose not to skip dd to the next grade as she is already the youngest in her class. I've just been reading a book about exceptionally gifted children by Miraca Gross. She comes down heavily in favour of acceleration for the profoundly gifted, on the grounds that children (and adults) tend to befriend their *intellectual* peers rather than their age-peers. Her research/literature survey indicated that profoundly gifted children are usually socially and morally advanced as well as being academically advanced, and fit in well with *and are accepted by* older classmates, once they are officially members of that class. My only hesitation is that this book was written in 1989 and more research may have changed the picture a bit. No, the research still supports Gross's postulation that PG kids do seek their intellectual peers and do better socially with kids they can relate to rather than their age peers. But we're talking PROFOUNDLY gifted...kids with IQs over 180. That kind of kid is rare, really rare. A school might see one in a lifetime of teaching. Or none. I've read that an IQ of 180+ is a million to one shot. As the parent of a PG child, one who is radically accelerated and having the time of his life socially, I'd have to agree with Gross that socially acceleration is a G-dsend. *However*, we're having a *terrible* school year this year, and I'm really at my wits end, as is the school, with my PG child. I'm not going to go into details, but having a child who is 2-3 years younger than his classmates who are all going through puberty at a rapid clip, whereas my kid is not, has really been difficult for all concerned. My kid has a ton of friends, no doubt about it, but he's such a jerk right now that I just can't believe they still allow him to attend school every day. The age difference has really caught up with him, and he's not dealing with it very well. I don't think my child is alone in this, either. From my contact with other parents of PG kids, there seems to be a real issue in middle school with a child either leaning towards academics and being socially isolated, or socially popular but school suffers. I suppose it's the nature of middle school, but it seems fairly acute from my viewpoint. Hard to believe, but I'm not sure I'd recommend radical acceleration for any kid right now. I'm seeing the struggles first hand, and it's painful to watch. Although I know for my child, this was the right decision at the time, but I wish I had been less cavalier in my attitude a few years down the road. Maybe I'll feel differently once we have this all ironed out, but who knows. As has always been my experience, every school year brings totally different challanges, and what works one year might fail miserably the next. We've done the gamut, private, public, homeschooling, and nothing has been perfect or even close to it. These are tough kids to raise. Marjorie However, I agree firmly with her that a child that is left in a class where everything comes very easily will not learn to apply herself, may become naughty through boredom, may underachieve through a desire to fit in, may be socially isolated because she is developmentally and intellectually so far ahead of the rest, or may just retreat into misery. Your DD may not be in the "profoundly gifted" category, but the same thing is true -- just to a lesser extent -- for gifted children in other categories. I think you should reconsider acceleration. |
#110
|
|||
|
|||
Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
Banty wrote:
I agree with your post, and I think it's a matter of balance. Why the increasing inflexibility? Well, I think it's two things. One is - yes - that focus on high-stakes test scores and other inappropriate measures. The other, though, is social deterioration. A generation ago - it *was* a big deal to ask for extra teacher prep for a child pulled out of school for an unusual situation or a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for travel. It happened, but not so often, and the situations brought up would be compelling. Now, it's any damn thing, cheaper ski trips, cheaper Disney, whatever, such that the sheer volume of such instances are unmanageable, and there's the snowballing effect of parents, tired of buying expensive airline tickets for an August vacation whilst hearing of their neighbors grabbing last-minute deals and pulling the kids out of school and getting accomodated, start doing the same thing. So the pendulum swings the other way, and the parents who *would* be very judicious about this matter are shut out, too. Old story of abuse of privelege. Could be. I hesitate to make those arguments because I wasn't there and tend to be leery of "good old days" arguments (because it often turns out the "good old days" weren't all that good). Certainly, I do know people who pull kids from school for reasons I wouldn't think would pass muster. On the other hand, I know lots of people who only do it for what I would consider good reasons (and many of them get hassled about it). I guess I just don't know on this one, but it sounds plausible on the face of it, at least ;-) Best wishes, Ericka |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
| Teen faces expulsion and felony for loaning girlfriend medicine | Kane | General | 55 | October 22nd 03 03:04 AM |
PE/Recess time mandates | Donna Metler | General | 190 | October 2nd 03 01:26 PM |
DCF CT monitor finds kids *worsen* while in state custody | Kane | General | 8 | August 13th 03 07:43 AM |
Philly public schools go soda free! email to your school board | Maurice | General | 1 | July 14th 03 01:05 AM |
Virtual school seeks Iowa funding | [email protected] | General | 4 | June 29th 03 12:55 AM |