The Question, again

A punishing predicament
Spanking still provokes debate among parents, psychologists
Sunday, February 19, 2006
Mark Ellis
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
EVANGELIA PHILIPPIDIS | DISPATCH

(S)torm warnings were in the air as a 13-year-old George Chatters
approached his East Side home on his bike. ''People in the
neighborhood were saying my dad was looking for me," recalled Chatters,
39. ''He was touring the city in his car."

The youth had broken a family rule not to leave the area without
permission.

The enforcer: Dad's belt.

''I got it really good when I got home," he said. ''I was
hardheaded."

As a father of two, the Pickerington resident favors a less-physical
approach to discipline, although he keeps spanking in his toolbox as a
last resort.

Many other Americans do, too.

Despite a move away from spanking in recent decades, a majority of U.S.
parents still approve of - and sometimes rely on - corporal
punishment.

In 1968, according to the Family Research Laboratory at the University
of New Hampshire, 94 percent of parents deemed spanking sometimes
necessary - a figure that dropped to 61 percent by 2004, according to
a national survey commissioned by the Center for Child and Family
Studies in San Francisco.

The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.

Monitored by discipline experts, the case has refueled debate about
physical punishment that causes pain but not injury to a child.

Psychologists are divided over any ban on the physical punishment of
children, but even those who see no harm in occasional spanking view it
as potentially damaging when used severely or as the main method of
discipline.

In a survey, most pediatricians said they advise against physical
punishment.

The American Psychological Association and the American Academy of
Pediatrics have asked educators to stop spanking students, but the
groups haven't told parents never to spank their children.

Physical punishment is outlawed in 14 nations and limited in Canada to
those older than 3 and younger than 13.

Twenty-eight states ban such punishment in schools. Ohio leaves the
decision to individual districts; about 25 of 613 permit the practice.

Chatters, an author and enrollment adviser at Columbus State Community
College, has 11- and 3-year-old daughters with wife Adrienne.

He counts on spanking as the "last layer of discipline - when
there's no other means to rectify the problem."

"It's really not necessary to always physically punish," he said. "It
can be a stern look or commenting . . . that I'm very disappointed,
and then here come the tears."

His next step might be to take away TV, computer or telephone time.

Cari Brackett, an associate professor of pharmacy and family medicine
at Ohio State University, remembers slapping her son at age 2 while
changing a diaper. He had kicked her in the face. "I was hit a lot as a
child," said the Grandview Heights mother, 48. "It was a reaction on my
part. We both cried." In the 12 years since, the boy hasn't been
struck in discipline. The approach that Brackett - along with her
husband, David Anderson - considers most effective is based on
discussing problems and modeling behavior.

"A child is a reflection of who you are and what you have taught him,"
she said. "If you deal with a child as a wellintentioned,
willing-to-learn, willing-to-please little person, and if you don't
put them in a position where they can get themselves into trouble, they
will do as you ask because they love you."

A child who is struck, Brackett said, learns that hitting is
acceptable.

"We're admitting we don't know what else to do."

Keeping youngsters busy and redirecting their behavior before trouble
starts represent the best strategies, Dublin psychologist Robert
Fathman said.

A spoken reprimand usually suffices - followed by a task or chore
"that benefits the injured party."

The 60-year-old father of four grown children was fond of making them
clean his car as punishment.

Fathman serves as president of the nonprofit Center for Effective
Discipline in Columbus - which opposes physical punishment.

"Almost all child abuse starts with hitting or shaking," he said.

As experts acknowledge, however, mild physical punishment is at least
immediately effective.

Spanking works in the short term, research indicates, but no better
than other methods, said Murray Straus, co-director of the Family
Research Laboratory.

"The parent says: 'That's wrong. You've hurt your brother.'
Almost always, the child stops," he said. "Just like if you slap a
child's hand, they almost always stop.

"Whatever you do, it takes many repetitions," he said, because toddlers
lack control of their behavior.

"In the longer run, spanking is less effective because it builds up an
immunity. And, bit by bit, it chips away at the bond between child and
parent."

As studies show, Straus said, children subjected to frequent physical
punishment suffer depression as adults.

Those who say they are unharmed by childhood beatings, he said, are
"the lucky ones."

Strict-parenting advocate John Rosemond - a psychologist, columnist
and public speaker from Gastonia, N.C. - challenges such conclusions.

He doesn't advocate spanking but calls it not necessarily harmful.

"Sometimes, with children, you have to do something dramatic in order
to create a memory," he said.

Corporal punishment is most effective with ages 2 to 6, he said, and
might be appropriate - but rarely - through 10.

"If you find yourself spanking a lot or . . . on some regular basis
with a child older than 6, the message is quite clear: Spanking is not
working."

It should never be impulsive, even in the face of "belligerent
defiance," Rosemond said.

"Cool yourself down."

The hand is the best tool for the job, he said: An adult whose hand
begins to sting while spanking should stop.

A biblical reference (Proverbs 13:24) about the use of a rod for
discipline is metaphorical, Rosemond and Fathman said.

They cited it as the cause of too much spanking with an object by
parents who interpret the Bible literally.

"The rod was the guiding staff of shepherds," Fathman said. "The rod
was a tool for guidance, not inflicting pain."

Did you bother to read the Copyright notice, ignoranus kane0? ;-)

http://www.dispatch.com/features-sto...219-H1-00.html

Copyright@2006, The Columbus Dispatch, Reproduction prohibited

Doan

On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:

A punishing predicament
Spanking still provokes debate among parents, psychologists
Sunday, February 19, 2006
Mark Ellis
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
EVANGELIA PHILIPPIDIS | DISPATCH

(S)torm warnings were in the air as a 13-year-old George Chatters
approached his East Side home on his bike. ''People in the
neighborhood were saying my dad was looking for me," recalled Chatters,
39. ''He was touring the city in his car."

The youth had broken a family rule not to leave the area without
permission.

The enforcer: Dad's belt.

''I got it really good when I got home," he said. ''I was
hardheaded."

As a father of two, the Pickerington resident favors a less-physical
approach to discipline, although he keeps spanking in his toolbox as a
last resort.

Many other Americans do, too.

Despite a move away from spanking in recent decades, a majority of U.S.
parents still approve of - and sometimes rely on - corporal
punishment.

In 1968, according to the Family Research Laboratory at the University
of New Hampshire, 94 percent of parents deemed spanking sometimes
necessary - a figure that dropped to 61 percent by 2004, according to
a national survey commissioned by the Center for Child and Family
Studies in San Francisco.

The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.

Monitored by discipline experts, the case has refueled debate about
physical punishment that causes pain but not injury to a child.

Psychologists are divided over any ban on the physical punishment of
children, but even those who see no harm in occasional spanking view it
as potentially damaging when used severely or as the main method of
discipline.

In a survey, most pediatricians said they advise against physical
punishment.

The American Psychological Association and the American Academy of
Pediatrics have asked educators to stop spanking students, but the
groups haven't told parents never to spank their children.

Physical punishment is outlawed in 14 nations and limited in Canada to
those older than 3 and younger than 13.

Twenty-eight states ban such punishment in schools. Ohio leaves the
decision to individual districts; about 25 of 613 permit the practice.

Chatters, an author and enrollment adviser at Columbus State Community
College, has 11- and 3-year-old daughters with wife Adrienne.

He counts on spanking as the "last layer of discipline - when
there's no other means to rectify the problem."

"It's really not necessary to always physically punish," he said. "It
can be a stern look or commenting . . . that I'm very disappointed,
and then here come the tears."

His next step might be to take away TV, computer or telephone time.

Cari Brackett, an associate professor of pharmacy and family medicine
at Ohio State University, remembers slapping her son at age 2 while
changing a diaper. He had kicked her in the face. "I was hit a lot as a
child," said the Grandview Heights mother, 48. "It was a reaction on my
part. We both cried." In the 12 years since, the boy hasn't been
struck in discipline. The approach that Brackett - along with her
husband, David Anderson - considers most effective is based on
discussing problems and modeling behavior.

"A child is a reflection of who you are and what you have taught him,"
she said. "If you deal with a child as a wellintentioned,
willing-to-learn, willing-to-please little person, and if you don't
put them in a position where they can get themselves into trouble, they
will do as you ask because they love you."

A child who is struck, Brackett said, learns that hitting is
acceptable.

"We're admitting we don't know what else to do."

Keeping youngsters busy and redirecting their behavior before trouble
starts represent the best strategies, Dublin psychologist Robert
Fathman said.

A spoken reprimand usually suffices - followed by a task or chore
"that benefits the injured party."

The 60-year-old father of four grown children was fond of making them
clean his car as punishment.

Fathman serves as president of the nonprofit Center for Effective
Discipline in Columbus - which opposes physical punishment.

"Almost all child abuse starts with hitting or shaking," he said.

As experts acknowledge, however, mild physical punishment is at least
immediately effective.

Spanking works in the short term, research indicates, but no better
than other methods, said Murray Straus, co-director of the Family
Research Laboratory.

"The parent says: 'That's wrong. You've hurt your brother.'
Almost always, the child stops," he said. "Just like if you slap a
child's hand, they almost always stop.

"Whatever you do, it takes many repetitions," he said, because toddlers
lack control of their behavior.

"In the longer run, spanking is less effective because it builds up an
immunity. And, bit by bit, it chips away at the bond between child and
parent."

As studies show, Straus said, children subjected to frequent physical
punishment suffer depression as adults.

Those who say they are unharmed by childhood beatings, he said, are
"the lucky ones."

Strict-parenting advocate John Rosemond - a psychologist, columnist
and public speaker from Gastonia, N.C. - challenges such conclusions.

He doesn't advocate spanking but calls it not necessarily harmful.

"Sometimes, with children, you have to do something dramatic in order
to create a memory," he said.

Corporal punishment is most effective with ages 2 to 6, he said, and
might be appropriate - but rarely - through 10.

"If you find yourself spanking a lot or . . . on some regular basis
with a child older than 6, the message is quite clear: Spanking is not
working."

It should never be impulsive, even in the face of "belligerent
defiance," Rosemond said.

"Cool yourself down."

The hand is the best tool for the job, he said: An adult whose hand
begins to sting while spanking should stop.

A biblical reference (Proverbs 13:24) about the use of a rod for
discipline is metaphorical, Rosemond and Fathman said.

They cited it as the cause of too much spanking with an object by
parents who interpret the Bible literally.

"The rod was the guiding staff of shepherds," Fathman said. "The rod
was a tool for guidance, not inflicting pain."

On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:

The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.

So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-)

Keeping youngsters busy and redirecting their behavior before trouble
starts represent the best strategies, Dublin psychologist Robert
Fathman said.

A spoken reprimand usually suffices - followed by a task or chore
"that benefits the injured party."

The 60-year-old father of four grown children was fond of making them
clean his car as punishment.

Fathman serves as president of the nonprofit Center for Effective
Discipline in Columbus - which opposes physical punishment.

Hah! hah! hah! This Dr. Fathman is a real character! Do you know
him, Kane? ;-) So anti-spanking zealotS now think that cleaning
a car is better than spanking!

Doan

Doan wrote:
On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:

The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.

So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-)

So do you think he did?

Once upon a time you made the argument, when CPS followed a judges
orders (as they are required to do, by law), that "just following
orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people in authority.

Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left
welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt?

Where is your line, Doan?

Keeping youngsters busy and redirecting their behavior before trouble
starts represent the best strategies, Dublin psychologist Robert
Fathman said.

A spoken reprimand usually suffices - followed by a task or chore
"that benefits the injured party."

By golly, Doan, my apologies. You were right and I was wrong. Fathman
did in fact suggest a "reprimand," and toto missed that, or didn't read
that post.

How about that. Now call me a liar and show what a fool you are.

The 60-year-old father of four grown children was fond of making them
clean his car as punishment.

Fathman serves as president of the nonprofit Center for Effective
Discipline in Columbus - which opposes physical punishment.

Hah! hah! hah! This Dr. Fathman is a real character! Do you know
him, Kane? ;-)

I don't think so. The name's not familiar. I don't substitute one kind
of punishment for another. I'm a bit put off with you for not noticing
that after all these years, even though I've argued this with you in
the past. You seem to selectively forget things to make your silly
schoolboy challenges.

I'm curious about this article. They list him as a Dublin resident, yet
a Columbus organization president. Is there a Dublin in Ohio?

So anti-spanking zealotS now think that cleaning
a car is better than spanking!

Some might. Not all. I'm an anti-spanking advocate, and I don't support
punishment of any kind for teaching. I understand you do though, if
your defense of Singapore, and spanking parents, and R R R Dobson, are
any indication.

Where would you find that as a general rule, all anti-spanking
advocates support other punishments in it's place, and what makes you
think that all those that advocate other than CP all think other
punishments are warranted?

Doan

Your childish challenges are noted for what they a a lack of
creativity and lack of honesty or intelligence on your part.

It's a shame something is blocking you getting in touch with more than
the tiny repertoire of school yard bully responses you seem to be
limited to. You seem to be such an intelligent fellow.

Haven't figure out yet how to send a package to someone without it
going to their home address? Easiest thing in the world. My offer to
toto is still open. And I do not want her home address. Nor need it.

You make all these offers but you never follow through. How is that?

No one seems to want to have contact with you. Even Alina was reluctant
to send you a stamped self addressed envelope. Gosh. I'd have thought
at she would trust you. 0:-

Kane

[[[ Repeat of prior message, with small typographical errors corrected,
in CAPS ]]]

Doan wrote:

On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for
disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.


So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-)

So do you think he did?

Once upon a time you made the argument, (AND YES I HAVE THE POST HANDY)
when CPS followed a judge's orders (as they are required to do, by law),
that "just following orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people
in authority.

Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left
welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt?

Where is your line, Doan?


Keeping youngsters busy and redirecting their behavior before trouble
starts represent the best strategies, Dublin psychologist Robert
Fathman said.

A spoken reprimand usually suffices - followed by a task or chore
"that benefits the injured party."


By golly, Doan, my apologies. You were right and I was wrong. Fathman
did in fact suggest a "reprimand," and toto missed that, or didn't read
that post.

How about that. Now call me a liar and show what a fool you are.


The 60-year-old father of four grown children was fond of making them
clean his car as punishment.

Fathman serves as president of the nonprofit Center for Effective
Discipline in Columbus - which opposes physical punishment.


Hah! hah! hah! This Dr. Fathman is a real character! Do you know
him, Kane? ;-)


I don't think so. The name's not familiar. I don't substitute one kind
of punishment for another. I'm a bit put off with you for not noticing
that after all these years, even though I've argued this with you in
the past. You seem to selectively forget things to make your silly
schoolboy challenges.

I'm curious about this article. They list him as a Dublin resident, yet
a Columbus organization president. Is there a Dublin in Ohio?


So anti-spanking zealotS now think that cleaning
a car is better than spanking!


Some might. Not all. I'm an anti-spanking advocate, and I don't support
punishment of any kind for teaching. I understand you do though, if
your defense of Singapore, and spanking parents, and R R R Dobson, are
any indication.

Where would you find that as a general rule; THAT all anti-spanking
advocates support other punishments in it's place, and what makes you
think that all those that advocate other than CP all think other
punishments are warranted?

Doan

Your childish challenges are noted for what they a a lack of
creativity and lack of honesty or intelligence on your part.

It's a shame something is blocking you getting in touch with more than
the tiny repertoire of school yard bully responses you seem to be
limited to. You seem to be such an intelligent fellow.

Haven't figure out yet how to send a package to someone without it
going to their home address? Easiest thing in the world. My offer to
toto is still open. And I do not want her home address. Nor need it.

You make all these offers but you never follow through. How is that?

No one seems to want to have contact with you. Even Alina was reluctant
to send you a stamped self addressed envelope. Gosh. I'd have thought
at LEAST she would trust you. 0:-

Kane

--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:

The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.

So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-)

So do you think he did?

It doesn't matter what I think, it is what the judge thinks that matter.
So what did the judge think?

Once upon a time you made the argument, when CPS followed a judges
orders (as they are required to do, by law), that "just following
orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people in authority.

Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left
welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt?

I don't have all the fact of the case. If you have access to the
transcript of the case, I will be glad to look at it.

Where is your line, Doan?

It's where "reasonable" people say it is?

Doan

Doan wrote:
On 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:

On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.


So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-)

So do you think he did?


It doesn't matter what I think, it is what the judge thinks that matter.
So what did the judge think?


Once upon a time you made the argument, when CPS followed a judges
orders (as they are required to do, by law), that "just following
orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people in authority.

Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left
welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt?


I don't have all the fact of the case. If you have access to the
transcript of the case, I will be glad to look at it.

You are dodging. You have as much information as anyone reading, and you
are willing to make comments on it given just this amount of
information, until you are asked a question. That is dodging.

Given that you can in one circumstance, claim the authorities could be
wrong and following them is tantamount to using the "I was just
following orders" invalid defense, do you believe that in THIS case the
judge WAS right and his finding used as a guide for parents?


Where is your line, Doan?


It's where "reasonable" people say it is?

I didn't ask you t use such a dodge. They say a wide different of
things. Some will say that it's okay to strike little babies with
switches, while others say it's okay to leave marks with a belt. Some
will say it's okay to slap a child's face, other restrict only to the
child's buttocks. Each thinks they are reasonable. You can't agree with
all of them when some of these "reasonable" people are in direct
conflict with each other.

You'll go along with '"reasonable"' 'people?' Even though you know they
don't all agree?


Doan


What is your line. Not theirs, not the judges. What do you personally
believe is reasonable.

0:-

--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:

On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.


So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-)

So do you think he did?


It doesn't matter what I think, it is what the judge thinks that matter.
So what did the judge think?


Once upon a time you made the argument, when CPS followed a judges
orders (as they are required to do, by law), that "just following
orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people in authority.

Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left
welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt?


I don't have all the fact of the case. If you have access to the
transcript of the case, I will be glad to look at it.

You are dodging. You have as much information as anyone reading, and you
are willing to make comments on it given just this amount of
information, until you are asked a question. That is dodging.

One more time, I don't comment on this case unless I have all the
information. I am not going to second-guess the judge in this case.
Give me the court transcript; point out to me where he erred.

Given that you can in one circumstance, claim the authorities could be
wrong and following them is tantamount to using the "I was just
following orders" invalid defense, do you believe that in THIS case the
judge WAS right and his finding used as a guide for parents?

The burden of proof is on you. You are saying that the judge is wrong
then prove it!


Where is your line, Doan?


It's where "reasonable" people say it is?

I didn't ask you t use such a dodge. They say a wide different of
things. Some will say that it's okay to strike little babies with
switches, while others say it's okay to leave marks with a belt. Some
will say it's okay to slap a child's face, other restrict only to the
child's buttocks. Each thinks they are reasonable. You can't agree with
all of them when some of these "reasonable" people are in direct
conflict with each other.

Exactly! In some places, the speed limit is 15mph, in others it's 55mph!
Got it?

You'll go along with '"reasonable"' 'people?' Even though you know they
don't all agree?

Yes! We can be "reasonable" without agreeing. I though beccafromlalaland
already told you that! ;-)


Doan


What is your line. Not theirs, not the judges. What do you personally
believe is reasonable.

What I PERSONALLY BELIEVE is my business! Why do you always want to stick
your nose into other people' asses? So that you can tell them that it
stinks? ;-)

Doan