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Time Article - What Teachers Hate about Parents (x-posted)



 
 
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  #521  
Old March 2nd 05, 03:44 AM
Seveigny
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"Julnar" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 20:07:12 -0800, "Seveigny"
wrote:

I'm guessing that most folks will have heard controversial language in
various places and won't be too dismayed by what they hear. I don't
think
you need to worry about all of the threads on k.12.chat.teacher.


Well, they just need to be sure they don't get that "Rick Fey's"
dander up by disagreeing. If they do, he might try to harrass them
and call them some insulting nickname for about, say, 7 years.

And, in the same thread that he complains about certain someones not
being nice, he might also brag about getting his female principal to
cry at faculty meetings.


Oh, come on now Julnar. Don't tell me you haven't thought, from time to
time, about making your principal's life a living hell. After all, the
principal has the power to make your life a living hell, why not turn the
tables?

~Cate


Don't be surprised by any of it. YHBW.

JZ
================================================
"The first duty of a society is to defend itself.
If that requres torture, so be it. Isreal did
not create the circumstances where it became a
matter of survival. ARABS did it."
-- Mark Probert Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:47:00 GMT
Message-ID:


Ah, yes, Alberto Gonzalez...the fellow who wrote the
memos supporting torture in Iraq and was accordingly
promoted...while those that followed his guidance are
in prison for years. Perhaps he will substitute
torture for behavior modification.
Message-ID:



  #522  
Old March 2nd 05, 04:50 AM
toto
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On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:09:12 -0600, "Donna Metler"
wrote:

Going room to room as a music teacher is the best way I know of to assure
that music is taught on a trivial level. You simply can't teach a good,
developmentally appropriate music program without room for movement and more
instruments than will fit on a cart. I have about $25,000 of equipment
specific to general music K-6 in my orff classroom.


There should be room for movement in the classroom anyway.

And if each classroom was equipped with a reasonable selection of
these instruments then you would not need a cart.

Would you expect a generalist teacher to teach your class?

Why or why not?


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
  #523  
Old March 2nd 05, 12:15 PM
Donna Metler
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"toto" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:09:12 -0600, "Donna Metler"
wrote:

Going room to room as a music teacher is the best way I know of to assure
that music is taught on a trivial level. You simply can't teach a good,
developmentally appropriate music program without room for movement and

more
instruments than will fit on a cart. I have about $25,000 of equipment
specific to general music K-6 in my orff classroom.


There should be room for movement in the classroom anyway.

And if each classroom was equipped with a reasonable selection of
these instruments then you would not need a cart.

Would you expect a generalist teacher to teach your class?

Why or why not?

A reasonable selection of the instruments would be rather expensive to have
in each classroom, particularly if you're trying to do any semblance of an
Orff curriculum, since each instrument is several hundred dollars, and you
really should have about one instrument for every 2 students for grades 4+.
As far as room for movement, my classroom is the same size as a typical
classroom, but has no desks and few chairs. We have three of the lakeshore
classroom rugs together as open space. A developmental music program is both
space and equipment intensive.

A generalist teacher wouldn't be able to teach music in the same way a
specialist does, and IME when districts have cut music specialist positions
with the idea that classroom teachers will teach music, music goes away
completely in every grade above about 2. Primary teachers tend to
incorporate little songs and listening to music more than older grades do,
but even then, it is not a good, structured program.

Because of the nature of music education, music teachers are musicians
first. A music ed degree is a music degree with additional teaching courses,
and in most schools is a 5 year+ program. If a music teacher is trained in
any developmental method, this is additional coursework, training, and
supervised practice on top of a college degree and teaching certification.
While there are a few classroom teachers with this level of knowledge (there
are three music teachers in my district, myself included, who are also
classroom certified, and I know of two classroom teachers who are music
certified), the vast majority are not. Most education certificates require
only one class in music education for elementary and early childhood majors.





--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits



  #524  
Old March 2nd 05, 03:30 PM
toto
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On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 05:15:25 -0600, "Donna Metler"
wrote:

A generalist teacher wouldn't be able to teach music in the same way a
specialist does, and IME when districts have cut music specialist positions
with the idea that classroom teachers will teach music, music goes away
completely in every grade above about 2. Primary teachers tend to
incorporate little songs and listening to music more than older grades do,
but even then, it is not a good, structured program.


Then why should this be any different for math or science really?

It seems to me that these fields are also quite specialized. I don't
think a generalist teacher can teach math the way a specialized one
will either. I do think, however, that the teachers should be teamed
so that they can integrate the learning to an extent. That includes
the music and art teachers, btw.

For example, I would like to see teams lead by the reading/social
studies teacher. Then if the curriculum calls for a particular
period in history to be studied, the music teacher can incorporate
music from that period into her lessons, the art teacher can
incorporate art from that period, the math teacher can incorporate
math/science teacher can incorporate math that might go along
with whatver real life things people would be doing during that
period. It would require some team planning time though which
isn't easy to get in schools as they are presently constituted.

The other way to do this would be to provide the teachers with
a math/science, music, art, reading/social studies specialists
who could help and entire grade level by being available to work
on planning lessons that incorporate these subjects.

Of course, these options are not inexpensive, so they probably
won't happen anytime soon.






--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
  #525  
Old March 2nd 05, 04:12 PM
Guess who
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On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 08:30:25 -0600, toto
wrote:

It seems to me that these fields are also quite specialized. I don't
think a generalist teacher can teach math the way a specialized one
will either. I do think, however, that the teachers should be teamed
so that they can integrate the learning to an extent. That includes
the music and art teachers, btw.


I could not agree more. However, one should look at the level of
specialisation required for each grade/level to do a job to meet
reasonable expectations. I've seen non-specialists teaching math and
science at the high school level. The problem there is that people
don't miss what they don't see, and if little Johnny is getting 94%,
that's good enough for aspiring parents. The job get done, but the
insight might have been [I'd rather say would have been] a lot deeper
when presented by someone who really can see a bit deeper into the
study themselves, having a wider experience and knowledge-base. I've
not seen too many non-specialists trying to teach music though.
Again, that will depend on grade/level. Much can be done with kazoo
and triangle, but when it comes to teaching each instrument in a
junior orchestra, I'd step way back, even though I have training in
classical piano, and would hope that others would have the wisdom to
do the same. Really competent music teachers are not fully
appreciated for the most part. In as much as there are some who
specialise in other areas and who are competent with one or more
instruments, it needs the one with specialist training to put it all
together ...and to be able to teach it. As you suggest, that is true
in any subject area. If I want to learn how to make cedar strip
canoes, I want to learn from someone who does it all day every day,
and who loves doing it.

  #526  
Old March 3rd 05, 02:19 AM
Rowley
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Penny Gaines wrote:

Banty wrote:

In article , toto says...

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:25:22 +0000, Penny Gaines
wrote:

Banty wrote:

4 x 8 .... ? I dunno... I think it's somewhere between 28 to 36. No,
it's not 36 because that's 6 x 6 and I know that one. Okay lemme see: 8
+ 8 = 16. 16 + 16 is, um, (6+6 is 12, air fingers to carry the 1 ...
1+1+1= 3...). Got it!

I break it down to 2x8x2 = 16x2 = 32. Always have.

4 x 8 = 32 - I know that one. It is when it comes to things like

8 x 7 = (7**2) + 7 = 49 + 7 = 56

You mean (7*7) + 7 don't you?


That's the Fortran (and probably other languages) way of expressing
"7 to the second power", which would be "7 squared".

[snip]

Yep, that's what I was thinking.

Oh, but if you're on a time trial with math facts, all this cleverness
doesn't
help as much as having the facts down cold. And having the facts down
cold in
life gets you...... gets you...... Help me out here, Dorothy


Gets you more chances to get a job as an astronaut. At least it did
according to the books I read in the 1980s, which were probably published
in the 1970s.

Depressinly, one of my kid's newly published books talks about how
"when you are grown up there will be people living in space".


Hmm - there "are" people in space - just not as many of them as
we guessed there would be. Personally, I think that when more
non-government agencies find a need to put people there, it will
start to get more crowded.

Martin

It
sounded just like the books I read when I was growing up. And they
were wrong :-(.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

  #527  
Old March 4th 05, 02:05 AM
Rick Fey
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Julnar wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:44:05 -0800, "Seveigny"
wrote:


"Julnar" wrote in message
. ..

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 20:07:12 -0800, "Seveigny"
wrote:


I'm guessing that most folks will have heard controversial language in
various places and won't be too dismayed by what they hear. I don't
think
you need to worry about all of the threads on k.12.chat.teacher.

Well, they just need to be sure they don't get that "Rick Fey's"
dander up by disagreeing. If they do, he might try to harrass them
and call them some insulting nickname for about, say, 7 years.

And, in the same thread that he complains about certain someones not
being nice, he might also brag about getting his female principal to
cry at faculty meetings.


Oh, come on now Julnar. Don't tell me you haven't thought, from time to
time, about making your principal's life a living hell. After all, the
principal has the power to make your life a living hell, why not turn the
tables?



Thought? Sure. But I can honestly say-- I can even swear-- that I
never tried to make anyone's life a living hell, not a principal's or
anyone else's. I don't think it's right and even if it were, I know
it's counterproductive. You don't play power games if you're smart,
least of all when you are at a natural disadvantage, and LOA when it
can mean you will be trapped in with the very principal you despise.
Adults don't solve their problems at work by playing those games.

Sure, I used to think the voices of rebellion were signs of courage
but I soon noticed that those who shouted loudest were the laziest,
most fossilized, most useless teachers we had. The ones truly
dedicated to student learning did not create spectacles of meetings or
play power politics with whatever idiot was in charge. Think about
it. The bully crowd at his school, the one he is apparently so proud
to be ringleader of, may well comprise the school's untransferrable
teachers. If you want to lose your shot at ever reaching greener
pastures, be like him. Being like him could get you the sort of rep
you might never shake, to the point where other principals won't give
you a chance.

Anyway, Kleyle is a bully by nature. If he weren't squawking about
me, he'd find someone else to squawk about.

JZ


Who's doing the squawking? And the jumping to peculiar conclusions?

as ever,
  #528  
Old March 4th 05, 02:06 AM
Rick Fey
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Julnar wrote:

You must not be a teacher, then. If you can bite your tongue and not
tell a kid he's an ambulatory hemorrhoid, believe me-- you can resist
telling some 12 year olds why you didn't vote for GW.


Julnar, that's just plain rude.



How is it rude?

JZ


"Honey, how come you have to ask me that?"
---Bob Dylan
  #529  
Old March 4th 05, 03:46 AM
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Seveigny wrote:

Thanks to the good Sisters of St. Joseph, I don't have to think about

any of
these problems. I know my times tables through the 12's.
Not too long ago my 11th grade students participated in a 1930's

budget
activity. They were randomly assigned an occupation. The first step

was to
find the occupation on the handout and discover their annual salary.

The
next step required them to find their monthly income. Quick as

lightening,
they pulled out their calculators (or their cell phones with my

permission)
so they could divide their annual income by 12. As they made the
calculations, I asked "You need a calculator to divide by 12? What

would
your 4th grade teacher have to say?"
~Cate


I was surprised to hear from my kids that they only learn up to 10 x
10.

I learned up to 12 x 12, myself; someone I know, who went to an
apparently very ordinary school in India learned up to 20 x 20. Partly
as a result, he's still extremely fast at calculation.

Rupa

 




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