Help! Toddler left in car question

Marie wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:53:05 GMT, "nimue"
wrote:
I tried the "I care about you and your daughter" and I got NOWHERE.
She flipped. I really tried my very best to keep it light and be
nice and it didn't matter. It was awful. She said, "Well, your
husband never wears a seatbelt -- how can you even talk?" I was
flabbergasted. I said, "My husband is a grown man and if he wants
to put his own life in danger, then he can choose to do that. Your
daughter is a defenseless baby who depends on you to protect her.
You can't even compare the two!" She made no sense, but she was
FURIOUS. I am so down right now. I honestly think it might be the
end of our friendship because I cannot be her friend if she
continues to act irresponsibly toward her daughter. I mean, she and
I have been through a lot together, but I would DESPISE myself if I
saw her do something that jeopardized her daughter's safety and I
didn't say something -- and when I said something she got so enraged
there was no talking to her.

I just wanted to say I'm sorry it went so badly. I'm hoping your
friend will calm down and somehow your relationship will work out.
Marie

Thank you. I hope so, too, but if the SCREAMING, FURIOUS message she just
left me on my answering machine is any indication, it won't work out. It
hurts -- I have known her since college -- but I just could not NOT say
something. Man, I just feel pretty down about it. I fear I may have done
her daughter no good and I have lost my friendship in the bargain.

--
nimue

"If I had created reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Beth Kevles wrote:
Hi --

When I feel it necessary to correct someone else's behavior (which I
try hard to avoid, don't we all?) I try to lay the blame on myself.

"I know I'm probably paranoid, but I'm just uncomfortable leaving a
baby alone in the car. I'll have nightmares about what might happen
if she woke up, or a stranger passed by and snatched her. Would you
mind if we looked at the house later/took her in with us?"

If your friend sees herself as accomodating YOU, she might change her
behavior, at least wehn you're around, to fit with your
"idiosyncrasy".

I hope your friendship goes back to normal. It sounds to me as though
your friend IS feeling guilty but doesn't really know what else to do.
And your good parenting behavior will be a good model for her.

Excellent ideas, all. I started that way, laughingly saying I was paranoid,
etc., but she just kept dismissing me and the truth is I wanted her to
realize how dangerous it was because she sure won't just do it when I am
around. She'll do it all the time -- THAT is why I wanted her to realize
how dangerous it was. It didn't work.

Good luck,
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the
milk-allergic Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be
construed as medical advice. Please consult with your own medical
practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you
would like me to reply.

--
nimue

"If I had created reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

bizby40 wrote:
"P. Tierney" wrote in message
news:B6SUd.77573$tl3.5658@attbi_s02...

"nimue" wrote in message
...
snip

P. Tierney

So you would leave your 2 year old alone in the car, out of your
sight, for
15-20 minutes?

My first post in this thread on the subject indicated that I
would not, of course. I've not seen a single parent (or
otherwise) on this newsgroup supporting such an idea.

Okay. I just wanted to make that clear. I just spoke to my friend
and she
EXPLODED all over me and didn't want to hear it. It was very
unpleasant. I
was surprised she called me today -- I wasn't expecting to hear
from her until tomorrow at the earliest. Anyway, she sees NOTHING
wrong with what she did and she got VERY angry. FURIOUS. I tried
very hard to be mild and
caring, but no matter what I said, she just reacted and got angrier
and angrier. It was very unpleasant and I am feeling kind of down
about it now.

It's hard to say from a distance, but regardless of how you
expressed yourself, the other parent may have considered it
demeaning or patronizing.

I would stick to just doing the right thing instead of saying it.
You can't get her to change with your words, I don't think, but
in the same situation in the future, I'd insist on staying by the car
and, if asked why, I might say, "Look, it's the law that we can't
leave kids in the car in this state, so I can't check the property
with you. You go ahead."

I agree. You can't go back in time of course, but that's what I
would have done the first time it happened. It's pretty much
impossible to tell someone that they are a bad parent, no matter how
lovingly you try to do it, without them getting angry and defensive.
It's the kind of conversation that you don't have unless you think it
really is important enough to lose the friendship over.

I think I did. I mean, I considered that, went ahead, and I fear that is
what happened.

That said, just because she was defensive when she was put on the
spot, does not mean that she didn't hear you. She might very well
stop doing it because of what you said.

And finally, please don't write off the friendship just yet.

I don't want to! I have known her since college! She is FURIOUS, however.
She left me the most FURIOUS message on my answering machine today.

You
embarrassed her. It's natural for her to act combatatively. Call
her again in a few days to chat about something else. Don't mention
this again. Or if you do, just apologize for the way it came out.
There is no need to reiterate the message or to make her admit you're
right.

Wise words.

I was once on the opposite end of a similar situation. DD is 9. I
mentioned to a friend that I thought when she was 10, she'd be old
enough to stay home alone if I ran to the local grocery store or post
office (these are both less than 5 minutes away, and as it's not
where I do my main grocery shopping, a trip to either place is
normally less than 20 minutes round trip). She told me that if I
were to do that, I need to tell DD not to tell anyone, as it is
illegal and CPS could get involved if anyone ever found out.

I was *flabbergasted*!!! I've always thought of myself as a
conscientious parent, to think that I'd even *considered* doing
something illegal.... Well, there are a lot of things that are bad
parenting that are not illegal, so to do something *so* bad that
there was a law against it... So I immediately began researching
state law, and after an exhaustive search discovered that there is no
stated minimum age for a child to be left alone. After that I started
searching local statutes and even social services rules. The only
thing I ever found were "guidelines." One place did say no child
should be left alone at all until they are 12. Another said that
children ages 8-10 could be left alone for up to 1.5 hours in the
daytime.

Anyway, all this is beside the point. The *point* is that I know how
it made me feel, so I can understand how this mom might have felt.

Thank you for that insight. I would agree with YOU in that situation.

Bizby

--
nimue

"If I had created reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Stephanie Stowe wrote:
snip

Everybody places the line in a different place. It is certainly not
good for anyone to live in such fear that you are not really living.
This one is a no brainer for me since leaving the child in the car is
not a super good idea in many instances for everyone.

Not in the case of my friend, apparently.

--
nimue

"If I had created reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Nan wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 22:15:25 GMT, "nimue"
scribbled:

dragonlady wrote:
In article ,
"nimue" wrote:

Okay. I just wanted to make that clear. I just spoke to my friend
and she EXPLODED all over me and didn't want to hear it. It was
very unpleasant. I was surprised she called me today -- I wasn't
expecting to hear from her until tomorrow at the earliest. Anyway,
she sees NOTHING wrong with what she did and she got VERY angry.
FURIOUS. I tried very hard to be mild and caring, but no matter
what I said, she just reacted and got angrier and angrier. It was
very unpleasant and I am feeling kind of down about it now.

When my kids get this angry at me when I call them on something, I
know it's because they KNOW they were in the wrong, and are angry at
having been caught . . .

Thank you, dragonlady. That makes me feel better, because she just
left a SCREAMING FURIOUS message on my answering machine. Oh, boy.

She's still acting angry?? I'd say you struck a nerve.

I don't WANT to strike a nerve. I want her to say, "Oh my god -- I need to
be more cautious with my daughter." Then I want her to still be my friend.
The way it looks now, neither will happen.

Nan

--
nimue

"If I had created reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

P. Tierney wrote:
"nimue" wrote in message
...
Marie wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:53:05 GMT, "nimue"
wrote:
I tried the "I care about you and your daughter" and I got NOWHERE.
She flipped. I really tried my very best to keep it light and be
nice and it didn't matter. It was awful. She said, "Well, your
husband never wears a seatbelt -- how can you even talk?" I was
flabbergasted. I said, "My husband is a grown man and if he wants
to put his own life in danger, then he can choose to do that. Your
daughter is a defenseless baby who depends on you to protect her.
You can't even compare the two!" She made no sense, but she was
FURIOUS. I am so down right now. I honestly think it might be the
end of our friendship because I cannot be her friend if she
continues to act irresponsibly toward her daughter. I mean, she
and I have been through a lot together, but I would DESPISE myself
if I saw her do something that jeopardized her daughter's safety
and I didn't say something -- and when I said something she got so
enraged there was no talking to her.

I just wanted to say I'm sorry it went so badly. I'm hoping your
friend will calm down and somehow your relationship will work out.
Marie

Thank you. I hope so, too, but if the SCREAMING, FURIOUS message
she just left me on my answering machine is any indication, it won't
work out. It hurts -- I have known her since college -- but I just
could not NOT say something. Man, I just feel pretty down about it.
I fear I may have done her daughter no good and I have lost my
friendship in the bargain.

I can't relate to this at all. I can't imagine any friend that
I have "screaming furiously" at me, and if she/he did, I can't
imagine (without an apology from the screamer) that person
remaining my friend for much longer.

In short, I don't know why anyone would let a friend speak
to him/her like this.

I guess I am pretty understanding. She certainly has NEVER screamed at me
(or my answering machine) furiously before, but she is enraged now. So, I
am willing to understand that what I said hurt her and give her the time and
space she needs to calm down and be rational. If she can't and won't then I
guess she and I won't be friends anymore. I am perfectly willing to forgive
this, but I cannot admit I am wrong (because I am not) nor can I hang out
with and condone her leaving her daughter unattended and unwatched in a car.
If she wants to hate me for this -- if her being right is more important
than even considering some advice her daughter's safety, well, then I guess
that is just how it is. I'm not happy about it, but there is nothing I can
do about it.


P.
Tierney

--
nimue

"If I had created reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

"nimue" wrote in message
...
Marie wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:53:05 GMT, "nimue"
wrote:
I tried the "I care about you and your daughter" and I got NOWHERE.
She flipped. I really tried my very best to keep it light and be
nice and it didn't matter. It was awful. She said, "Well, your
husband never wears a seatbelt -- how can you even talk?" I was
flabbergasted. I said, "My husband is a grown man and if he wants
to put his own life in danger, then he can choose to do that. Your
daughter is a defenseless baby who depends on you to protect her.
You can't even compare the two!" She made no sense, but she was
FURIOUS. I am so down right now. I honestly think it might be the
end of our friendship because I cannot be her friend if she
continues to act irresponsibly toward her daughter. I mean, she and
I have been through a lot together, but I would DESPISE myself if I
saw her do something that jeopardized her daughter's safety and I
didn't say something -- and when I said something she got so enraged
there was no talking to her.

I just wanted to say I'm sorry it went so badly. I'm hoping your
friend will calm down and somehow your relationship will work out.
Marie

Thank you. I hope so, too, but if the SCREAMING, FURIOUS message she just
left me on my answering machine is any indication, it won't work out. It
hurts -- I have known her since college -- but I just could not NOT say
something. Man, I just feel pretty down about it. I fear I may have done
her daughter no good and I have lost my friendship in the bargain.

I can't relate to this at all. I can't imagine any friend that
I have "screaming furiously" at me, and if she/he did, I can't
imagine (without an apology from the screamer) that person
remaining my friend for much longer.

In short, I don't know why anyone would let a friend speak
to him/her like this.


P.
Tierney

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 22:30:14 GMT, "nimue"
scribbled:

I don't WANT to strike a nerve. I want her to say, "Oh my god -- I need to
be more cautious with my daughter." Then I want her to still be my friend.
The way it looks now, neither will happen.

Yeah, but there are never any guarantees when we do/say what we feel
we must.
You spoke your conscience.... you can't be responsible for her
reaction.
Hopefully she'll calm down and you can let her know you understand her
feelings, but you felt you needed to say something.

Nan

In article ,
"nimue" wrote:


I tried the "I care about you and your daughter" and I got NOWHERE. She
flipped. I really tried my very best to keep it light and be nice and it
didn't matter. It was awful. She said, "Well, your husband never wears a
seatbelt -- how can you even talk?" I was flabbergasted. I said, "My
husband is a grown man and if he wants to put his own life in danger, then
he can choose to do that. Your daughter is a defenseless baby who depends
on you to protect her. You can't even compare the two!" She made no sense,
but she was FURIOUS. I am so down right now. I honestly think it might be
the end of our friendship because I cannot be her friend if she continues to
act irresponsibly toward her daughter. I mean, she and I have been through
a lot together, but I would DESPISE myself if I saw her do something that
jeopardized her daughter's safety and I didn't say something -- and when I
said something she got so enraged there was no talking to her.

You might feel bad now, but imagine how much worse you would feel if you
didn't say anything and something happened to that baby. You were
completely in the right and your friend was wrong to leave the baby in
the car for that long. You know it and she knows it - that's why she is
so angry with you, because she knows that you are right.

Watching your friends parent is a difficult thing, especially when your
standards differ a lot. It's even more difficult if you don't have kids
of your own, because there is this cultural expectation that you should
keep your trap shut if you don't have kids of your own. When it comes
to things like changing diapers and getting kids to sleep, this is
probably a good idea. Issues of safety are a whole different story -
you don't need to be a parent to know that leaving kids alone in
dangerous situations is A Bad Idea. I'm sorry you're going to lose your
friend over this, but you did the right thing. And tell y our DH I said
he has to put his seat belt on!

eggs.

"nimue" wrote in message
...
Nan wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 22:15:25 GMT, "nimue"
scribbled:

dragonlady wrote:
In article ,
"nimue" wrote:

Okay. I just wanted to make that clear. I just spoke to my friend
and she EXPLODED all over me and didn't want to hear it. It was
very unpleasant. I was surprised she called me today -- I wasn't
expecting to hear from her until tomorrow at the earliest. Anyway,
she sees NOTHING wrong with what she did and she got VERY angry.
FURIOUS. I tried very hard to be mild and caring, but no matter
what I said, she just reacted and got angrier and angrier. It was
very unpleasant and I am feeling kind of down about it now.

When my kids get this angry at me when I call them on something, I
know it's because they KNOW they were in the wrong, and are angry at
having been caught . . .

Thank you, dragonlady. That makes me feel better, because she just
left a SCREAMING FURIOUS message on my answering machine. Oh, boy.

She's still acting angry?? I'd say you struck a nerve.

I don't WANT to strike a nerve. I want her to say, "Oh my god -- I need
to
be more cautious with my daughter." Then I want her to still be my
friend.
The way it looks now, neither will happen.

Nan

I'm going to go against the grain here and tell you that you should
apologize. You mentioned you have no children yet. I'll warn you that by
the time you are pregnant you will have to make many decisions, all of which
will have a respectable number of people totally convinced you are wrong.
And their reasoning for telling you that you are wrong is because you are
carrying a child, that cannot fend for itself, and therefore they should get
to tell you what to do, and how to care for it. Sound familiar? Your
friend's decision, though you may not make that same decision for your own
family, falls in the reasonable range. She felt it was safer for her child
to be sleeping, strapped into a non-moving, turned off car with the windows
down in what she felt was a safe neighborhood versus having a cranky toddler
wandering a non-childproofed home that she had not vetted first. As you
have seen, given the situation the way you have painted it, no one here
would admit to making the same decision. Doesn't mean she was wrong. Nor
does it mean she was not being cautious. If you want to be her friend again
you need to apologize, she's not going to, I guarantee it. And I will tell
you I was once a childless woman who was absolutely sure other women and men
were bad parents for the "stupid" things they did. And once I had my first
child I realized I was wrong. The vast majority of parents are doing the
best they can, with challenges you can't even imagine without being
responsible for children of your own. And I'd like to apologize to all the
mothers and fathers I glared at when they were making decisions I wouldn't
make, because now I know they weren't clearcut, and they were right for
their family.