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parenting
It's hard to let go of one's children after taking care of them from
conception and then on through their schooling. Our offspring learn from a variety of sources which become more varied as they grow older. For parents it has to be a case of allowing the independence while maintaining the love. It is not an easy course to travel and a state of over protection is every much as big a problem as that of under protection. I was fascinated by an "over protection" story the other day: "It was a story of a man who was watching a butterfly struggle to break out of its cocoon. After making some progress to work its way through a small hole, the butterfly appeared to simply stop its efforts. For some time, it seemed to make no headway, so the man concluded it was stuck and decided to lend a helping hand by delicately forming a larger opening in the cocoon with scissors. Afterward the butterfly emerged easily but with small, shriveled wings and a swollen body. It turned out that the struggle to emerge from the cocoon would have forced the fluid from the butterfly's body into its wings, a necessary process for enabling it to fly. As a result of a man's well-intentioned `help', he had interfered with nature's life-strengthening process. The butterfly was now doomed never to fly, but to crawl around with its swollen body and shriveled wings for the rest of its short life." (Bangkok Post 17-01-2005) There is one thing we all crave and that is love; but the loving thing is often hard to do. What may appear caring in the moment may well not be so in time and what may appear uncaring at the time may indeed be the loving thing to do. "Doing" for my children sometimes seems easier in the moment; yet showing them how to "do' for themselves, so that they learn, will often bring better results in the longer term. How can a child develop into a dependable person if never taught personal responsibility? How can any person develop into a respected leader if it does not understand being a servant? Feeding a child a healthy diet may not be the easy path, but allowing too much sugar and fat is the harmful course in the later time. The same applies to me now, I am slightly overweight and I love my snacks; in the long term this is a self inflicted wound. I must learn to love myself, then my children may longer share in that loving environment. |
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In article ,
Louise wrote: When I then point out that they have the choice of *not* living in residence when they attend university, they stare at me. I can't tell whether it's because everyone in their life takes residence for granted, or whether they can't quite get their heads around fending for themselves, but I quite enjoy planting more seeds of autonomy and choice. For what it's worth, a lot of colleges/universities do require freshmen to live in the dorms. I think most parents are most comfortable with that arrangement at first too. I'd be less than thrilled if you encouraged my child to live off-campus their first semester. --Robyn |
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In article , illecebra wrote:
I really hope that if/when my son starts college, he has the choice. I didn't. I was required to stay in a dorm. .... I don't really care what "most parents are most comfortable with", and it matters little by that age where I'd prefer my son to live. I'd like him to have the choice to live wherever he will be able to best concentrate when he has work to do, and enjoy himself when he doesn't. It really kind of scares me that you are worried about what someone might say to your *college-age* "child". If they can't make their own, adult decisions by that age, how are they going to survive??? Why should the primary concern for living conditions be what the parents are comfortable with. Hello! They aren't kids any more at that age, they are (or should be) adults. If my son hasn't matured enough by age 17 or 18 to decide whether to live in a dorm or a normal rental property, I will have failed as a parent. Some students at 17 are fully ready to take on adult life and make wise decisions, others are not. Living in a dorm makes it easier to socialize, which can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the student and what they really need help with. Many freshmen have problems with drinking or drugs when they are no longer under parental supervision, and dorm living may increase or decrease the risk of serious consequences (depending on the social dynamics of the dorm and the strategies the residential adviser takes to reduce the incidence and risk of drug problems). Dorms with meal-service plans usually result in students gaining several pounds their first year, which for most students is undesirable. Students sometimes lose weight when they first start cooking for themselves (which is dangerous for some, though a less common problem than the weight gain in dorms). What the parents are comfortable with *is* important for many college decisions, since the parents are usually footing the bill, which is now substantial (Stanford costs about $41,000 a year for tuition, room, and board, not counting books, supplies, computers, ...). ------------------------------------------------------------ Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus Professor of Biomolecular Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics (Senior member, IEEE) (Board of Directors, ISCB) life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels) Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed) Affiliations for identification only. |
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In article ,
illecebra wrote: It really kind of scares me that you are worried about what someone might say to your *college-age* "child". If they can't make their own, adult decisions by that age, how are they going to survive??? Why should the primary concern for living conditions be what the parents are comfortable with. Hello! They aren't kids any more at that age, they are (or should be) adults. If my son hasn't matured enough by age 17 or 18 to decide whether to live in a dorm or a normal rental property, I will have failed as a parent. IME, most college students gain that type of maturity during college, but not before, due to lack of real "living on one's own" experience. And, as much as I hope my son is making the "right" decisions for himself by 17, I don't plan to stop guiding him toward the decisions that I feel will keep him safe. Children mature at different rates, and just as they are ready to read, or to ride a bike, or to stay overnight at a friend's house, etc. at different ages, so too are they ready to "make adult decisions" at different ages, in many case *not* before they start college. Many young adults at that stage still need guidance from their parents, dorm advisors, etc. Some of my boys will probably be making excellent decisions at that age, but I suspect at least one may still need a lot of guidance. I wouldn't consider this a failure as a parent any more than I'd consider another parent a failure if their child didn't read by age 5, for example. I'd consider it a parenting failure if I knew my child was not ready to make good decisions when he started college, but left him to sink or swim on his own, just because others think a child "should" be ready to make all his decisions on his own at that age. I'm sure if my kids attend colleges that don't require dorm living for freshmen, they will be aware of that. I'm not trying to hide facts from them. But I read your comment as a "challenge" to these kids to assert their independence and forge out on their own, ready or not, which I considered to be inappropriate. --Robyn |
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1 Robyn Kozierok wrote: | In article , | illecebra wrote: | |It really kind of scares me that you are worried about what someone |might say to your *college-age* "child". If they can't make their own, |adult decisions by that age, how are they going to survive??? | |Why should the primary concern for living conditions be what the parents |are comfortable with. Hello! They aren't kids any more at that age, |they are (or should be) adults. If my son hasn't matured enough by age |17 or 18 to decide whether to live in a dorm or a normal rental |property, I will have failed as a parent. | | IME, most college students gain that type of maturity during college, | but not before, due to lack of real "living on one's own" experience. That in itself, is a problem, IMHO. College is the first time that many young adults live away from parents or guardians. However, it shouldn't be the first time that they've taken responsibility for themselves, decided if and when to go out, who to go out with, how to spend their money, etc. The ones who come in having never made these decisions for themselves already have the odds against them when they start college. | And, as much as I hope my son is making the "right" decisions for himself | by 17, I don't plan to stop guiding him toward the decisions that I | feel will keep him safe. I'm all for guiding. However, I took exception with what I saw as an implied statement that the parents' comfort with a student's living arrangements were more important than how the student feels about it. | Children mature at different rates, and just as they are ready to read, | or to ride a bike, or to stay overnight at a friend's house, etc. at | different ages, so too are they ready to "make adult decisions" at | different ages, in many case *not* before they start college. Many | young adults at that stage still need guidance from their parents, dorm | advisors, etc. "Make adult decisions" is a pretty broad area... but I think that you might agree with me if I make myself more clear (then again, maybe not). When a student goes off to college, he/she chooses what he/she will eat, and when, how much to study, whether to attend class or not, when to shower, whether to go out, whom to go out with and where, etc. The parents really don't have a lot of control. If giving (hopefully sound) advice isn't hands-on enough for some parents, then they are pretty much left with guilt trips and threats to "pull the plug" as their only options. Guidance and advice are great. My parents gave me some good advice when I started college. They also gave me some really bad advice that I'm glad I didn't follow. A lot fell somewhere in the middle. I'm grown up with a family of my own and I _still_ call my parents for advice on occassion. However, in many ways I also differ from them in how I feel I should run my life. That has been true since my early teen years. For a while, I felt guilty that I was letting them help me pay for school and not living exactly as they wanted. However, in the end, we are different people and they didn't always understand what was best for me. | Some of my boys will probably be making excellent decisions at that | age, but I suspect at least one may still need a lot of guidance. I | wouldn't consider this a failure as a parent any more than I'd consider | another parent a failure if their child didn't read by age 5, for | example. I'd consider it a parenting failure if I knew my child was | not ready to make good decisions when he started college, but left him | to sink or swim on his own, just because others think a child "should" | be ready to make all his decisions on his own at that age. I didn't mean that he should be able to make all of his decisions without any guidance. People at any age may need guidance. If a person about to live on his or her own in a college setting can't survive without having his/her decisions made for him/her, he/she is in big trouble. Being "less than thrilled" with what someone suggests to your child implies to me that you don't think that a 17 or 18yo person should be exposed to ideas that their parents disagree with. That, to me, is excessively controlling. Also, whether parents like it or not, college students are exposed to all sorts of people and media, and if they can't filter out the good from the bad on their own, they won't survive very well. | I'm sure if my kids attend colleges that don't require dorm living for | freshmen, they will be aware of that. I'm not trying to hide facts | from them. But I read your comment as a "challenge" to these kids to | assert their independence and forge out on their own, ready or not, | which I considered to be inappropriate. | | --Robyn No, I don't think that all dorm situations are bad for everyone. I do think that the student should be the one to determine what situations are right for them. Too many parents try to hold on to control too long, and really hurt their (now adult) children. There's a difference between being there for your child, and pressuring him/her to conform to your wishes regardless of their own. I'm really confused at this point as to which one you are advocating. Susan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCI3Gg4Fc1/EucZj4RAhccAJ4tTVHzBUDMJfx3GsIWk+iiSsFa4wCeMb+7 lBoGofhcHZr78MRs3VZZlSA= =DX9a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1 Kevin Karplus wrote: | In article , illecebra wrote: | |I really hope that if/when my son starts college, he has the choice. I |didn't. I was required to stay in a dorm. | ... | |I don't really care what "most parents are most comfortable with", and |it matters little by that age where I'd prefer my son to live. I'd like |him to have the choice to live wherever he will be able to best |concentrate when he has work to do, and enjoy himself when he doesn't. | |It really kind of scares me that you are worried about what someone |might say to your *college-age* "child". If they can't make their own, |adult decisions by that age, how are they going to survive??? | |Why should the primary concern for living conditions be what the parents |are comfortable with. Hello! They aren't kids any more at that age, |they are (or should be) adults. If my son hasn't matured enough by age |17 or 18 to decide whether to live in a dorm or a normal rental |property, I will have failed as a parent. | | | Some students at 17 are fully ready to take on adult life and make | wise decisions, others are not. Living in a dorm makes it easier to | socialize, which can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the | student and what they really need help with. Many freshmen have | problems with drinking or drugs when they are no longer under parental | supervision, and dorm living may increase or decrease the risk of | serious consequences (depending on the social dynamics of the dorm and | the strategies the residential adviser takes to reduce the incidence | and risk of drug problems). | | Dorms with meal-service plans usually result in students gaining | several pounds their first year, which for most students is | undesirable. Students sometimes lose weight when they first start | cooking for themselves (which is dangerous for some, though a less | common problem than the weight gain in dorms). Dorms have their good and bad points. I'm not saying there shouldn't be dorms, I'm saying that it should be a choice. | What the parents are comfortable with *is* important for many college | decisions, since the parents are usually footing the bill, which is | now substantial (Stanford costs about $41,000 a year for tuition, | room, and board, not counting books, supplies, computers, ...). Yes, it's a lot of money. I'll shell out whatever I can to help my son through college, if that's what he wants to do. However, I don't believe that that support should be conditional on him doing everything the way I would like him to. I've seen more young people flunk college, become clinically depressed, or worse, because they were doing as their parents wanted. A lot of parents care a lot more about what they are comfortable with than for what's good for their kids. Others are just totally out of touch with college life. I knew countless young men and women in college who majored in things they had no interest in and little talent for, who joined Fraternities and Sororities that put them through hell, who lived in dorms or society houses they hated, and all sorts of awful things... all because their parents threatened to pull the plug on their education. What's worse is that, until one turns 26 (or has 2 years of leases to prove they have been living on their own, dorms don't count), one is not able to even apply for financial aide without parental help and consent, and one's parents' income is still held against them when qualifying. Yes, lots of young people screw up a little when living on their own for the first time. At least if the mistakes are theirs, they're more likely to learn from them than if they are forced to live as their parents choose. The ones who are used to having almost this much freedom at home (those whose parents have been dishing out responsibility a bit at a time since they were young) do a lot better than those who've been coddled. Susan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCI2r44Fc1/EucZj4RAo2IAJ40MIbdraYRCSNp2nUHGE8S5wGN2gCgnM+v B5hA5hH5RTzuHWD8DB2lSy8= =8qGH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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In article , illecebra wrote:
Dorms have their good and bad points. I'm not saying there shouldn't be dorms, I'm saying that it should be a choice. I'm in agreement, at least in part. For many students, choices should be introduced gradually, rather than all at once. It makes sense for some kids to be required to live in a dorm for a year, as half-way step toward running their own household. | What the parents are comfortable with *is* important for many college | decisions, since the parents are usually footing the bill, which is | now substantial (Stanford costs about $41,000 a year for tuition, | room, and board, not counting books, supplies, computers, ...). Yes, it's a lot of money. I'll shell out whatever I can to help my son through college, if that's what he wants to do. However, I don't believe that that support should be conditional on him doing everything the way I would like him to. I've seen more young people flunk college, become clinically depressed, or worse, because they were doing as their parents wanted. A lot of parents care a lot more about what they are comfortable with than for what's good for their kids. Others are just totally out of touch with college life. I knew countless young men and women in college who majored in things they had no interest in and little talent for, who joined Fraternities and Sororities that put them through hell, who lived in dorms or society houses they hated, and all sorts of awful things... all because their parents threatened to pull the plug on their education. What's worse is that, until one turns 26 (or has 2 years of leases to prove they have been living on their own, dorms don't count), one is not able to even apply for financial aide without parental help and consent, and one's parents' income is still held against them when qualifying. I have seen students mae miserable trying to live their parents' expectations rather than their own dreams---how could I not as an engineering professor? Wise parents will give kids gentle guidance rather than force them to do things that they hate. I've also seen kids fail rather dramatically from being given more freedom than they had the maturity to cope with. Yes, lots of young people screw up a little when living on their own for the first time. At least if the mistakes are theirs, they're more likely to learn from them than if they are forced to live as their parents choose. The ones who are used to having almost this much freedom at home (those whose parents have been dishing out responsibility a bit at a time since they were young) do a lot better than those who've been coddled. Some kids screw up more than a little. Deaths from suicide and from alcohol-related injuries are appallingly common (far more common than the bike accidents that so many parents fear so much for their kids). The hard thing for a parent is to know how much guidance to give and how much slack to leave so that the kids learn to make wise decisions. Both too much control and too little can have severe consequences, and the right amount is different for different kids. Luckily, the optimum is fairly broad, and most parents do well enough and the kids learn fast enough that things work out ok in the end. ------------------------------------------------------------ Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus Professor of Biomolecular Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics (Senior member, IEEE) (Board of Directors, ISCB) life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels) Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed) Affiliations for identification only. |
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1 Kevin Karplus wrote: | In article , illecebra wrote: | |Dorms have their good and bad points. I'm not saying there shouldn't be |dorms, I'm saying that it should be a choice. | | I'm in agreement, at least in part. For many students, choices should | be introduced gradually, rather than all at once. It makes sense for | some kids to be required to live in a dorm for a year, as half-way | step toward running their own household. We're about half in agreement here, I guess. Yes, choices should be introduced gradually, but if that doesn't start until the kid is a college student living away from home, he/she isn't going to have the tools to cope anyway. I agree that dorms can provide a great half-way step in terms of not having to make all one's own meals, having to maintain only one's own room (or part of a room) because the common areas are kept clean by staff, etc. However, a lot of parents look upon dorm life as a more controlled environment than living on one's own, without bothering to find out what dorm life at a particular school is like. I have never found dorms to be measurably safer or more controlled than living on one's own, except for at some religious universities. Dorm life leaves the student with very little control over how they live or who they live with. I could give you tons of anecdotal evidence-- my year in the dorms was interesting, especially considering that we had video of the RA providing alchohol to underage residents, so he couldn't do much to control anyone. However, it's just that: anecdotal evidence. In truth, the dorm scene differs immensely from school to school, and sometimes even between the various dormitories at the same school. Unfortunately, too many parents see it as a cure-all when it isn't. || What the parents are comfortable with *is* important for many college || decisions, since the parents are usually footing the bill, which is || now substantial (Stanford costs about $41,000 a year for tuition, || room, and board, not counting books, supplies, computers, ...). | |Yes, it's a lot of money. I'll shell out whatever I can to help my son |through college, if that's what he wants to do. However, I don't |believe that that support should be conditional on him doing everything |the way I would like him to. | |I've seen more young people flunk college, become clinically depressed, |or worse, because they were doing as their parents wanted. A lot of |parents care a lot more about what they are comfortable with than for |what's good for their kids. Others are just totally out of touch with |college life. | |I knew countless young men and women in college who majored in things |they had no interest in and little talent for, who joined Fraternities |and Sororities that put them through hell, who lived in dorms or society |houses they hated, and all sorts of awful things... all because their |parents threatened to pull the plug on their education. What's worse is |that, until one turns 26 (or has 2 years of leases to prove they have |been living on their own, dorms don't count), one is not able to even |apply for financial aide without parental help and consent, and one's |parents' income is still held against them when qualifying. | | I have seen students mae miserable trying to live their parents' | expectations rather than their own dreams---how could I not as an | engineering professor? Wise parents will give kids gentle guidance | rather than force them to do things that they hate. I've also seen | kids fail rather dramatically from being given more freedom than they | had the maturity to cope with. The thing is... if they can't handle being on their own, should they be going away to college at all? If they haven't gotten the maturity and basic life skills neede to live away from home by their late teens is there a whole lot their parents can do about it anyway? I just don't see a whole lot of ways for an adult to have any meaningful amount of control over their child's life while that child is away at college. Parents are pretty much left with guilt trips, threats, and actually pulling the financing (be it financial help from the parents, or the parents' participation in the student's financial aid program) so that the student has to drop out of school. |Yes, lots of young people screw up a little when living on their own for |the first time. At least if the mistakes are theirs, they're more |likely to learn from them than if they are forced to live as their |parents choose. The ones who are used to having almost this much |freedom at home (those whose parents have been dishing out |responsibility a bit at a time since they were young) do a lot better |than those who've been coddled. | | Some kids screw up more than a little. Deaths from suicide and from | alcohol-related injuries are appallingly common (far more common than | the bike accidents that so many parents fear so much for their kids). Believe me, I know. I remember dragging my college roommate to the urgent care center because her idiot friends (the ones her parents chose for her) convinced her to drink far more than she could handle. She wasn't a bad person, or a particularly wreckless one, she was just a little dumb, quite a bit too trusting, and horribly afraid of not fitting in. | The hard thing for a parent is to know how much guidance to give and | how much slack to leave so that the kids learn to make wise decisions. | Both too much control and too little can have severe consequences, and | the right amount is different for different kids. Luckily, the | optimum is fairly broad, and most parents do well enough and the kids | learn fast enough that things work out ok in the end. Yep. I just get worried when parents start talking about what *they* are comfortable with with regard to their adult children, with little or no mention of what their adult children want. It makes me wonder when they expect their kids to start acting like adults, and/or when they will be willing to butt out enough that their kids can do so. IMHO, America in general tries to prolong childhood far longer than is healthy. Susan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCJKjM4Fc1/EucZj4RAlQCAJwILjrGvXDghiFUKammB4FFBkaLPgCgkNjU SwXgsQ4V7iSyyKiZlOjDoV0= =3bst -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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In article ,
illecebra wrote: Robyn Kozierok wrote: | IME, most college students gain that type of maturity during college, | but not before, due to lack of real "living on one's own" experience. That in itself, is a problem, IMHO. College is the first time that many young adults live away from parents or guardians. However, it shouldn't be the first time that they've taken responsibility for themselves, decided if and when to go out, who to go out with, how to spend their money, etc. The ones who come in having never made these decisions for themselves already have the odds against them when they start college. I definitely agree with that. I'm all for guiding. However, I took exception with what I saw as an implied statement that the parents' comfort with a student's living arrangements were more important than how the student feels about it. I like to think that what I want for my children will reflect what will work for them, including what they want, but also what I believe they can handle. I think dorms are, for most young adults, a good stepping-stone into living on their own. I think that with the new workload of college classes, new responsibilities of living away from home for the first time, having meals cooked and bathrooms cleaned for them makes the whole deal a lot more manageable. I think that a person who has not lived away from home before may not have the experience to make a good decision about whether or not that stepping-stone will be a good/necessary step for them or not. I think that someone who doesn't know them well may also not have a good idea as to whether or not a dorm would be a good/necessary step for them. Yet, as someone perhaps younger and "cooler" than their parents, a young person might put more weight on your suggestion that they not live in a dorm than perhaps they ought to, depending on their circumstances. Yes, ideally, by 17 or 18, my kids will trust my husband and me enough to know that we have their best interests at heart, and that we understand their unique needs, and that our advice regarding things like this may be more relevant than that they receive from others who don't know them as well. But I would also hope that other adults in my children's life would encourage them to trust us rather than trying to undermine us. Perhaps it is unrealistic to think that we will understand our teens' needs better than others. Right now our children are all under 12, so we are not yet into the teen years. Being "less than thrilled" with what someone suggests to your child implies to me that you don't think that a 17 or 18yo person should be exposed to ideas that their parents disagree with. That, to me, is excessively controlling. Also, whether parents like it or not, college students are exposed to all sorts of people and media, and if they can't filter out the good from the bad on their own, they won't survive very well. I interpreted your "suggestion" as "undermining"; perhaps I was out of context. But being a trusted adult in someone's life is different than being "all sorts of people and media," and with that trusted position comes a responsibility to look out for the teens' well-being rather than just espousing your own agenda, IMO. It sounded to me like you had an agenda to disparage dorm life because it wasn't a good fit for you, without regard to whether or not it would be a good fit for the teens to whom you were advocating forgoing it. --Robyn |
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