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  #11  
Old April 30th 04, 05:12 AM
CME
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Default Update of all updates


"quietguy" wrote in message
...
Kate, having read a few of your posts I have thought in the past that you

were a
sensitive and caring person - but your thoughts below I find almost

unbelievable
- SEND HER? SEND HER? Wheew hard to believe you really said that Kate.

Geez, if it was ever a time when Sage needed her mum with her it is now.

I hope
her mum ignores that advice of yours, and if Sage wants to attend then mum
should TAKE her - to be with her, care for her, listen to her.

David

PS The rest of what you you wrote sounded OK though

snipped Kate's post because someone top posted

Wow so you take her whole post and chuck it because she said Tiff should
send her daughter? So let me get this straight... now Kate's not a caring
and supportive person just because you happen to disagree with her advice???
Gimme a frickin break, who are you anyways? I may have been busy lately and
not posting as often but I sure don't see any posts of value coming from you
to rip someone apart that's been contributing to this ng for years. So
really I'd like to see you put in some effort before I start taking you
serious. Sheesh.

Christine
(Who's been here 4 years, so save it.)


  #12  
Old April 30th 04, 12:43 PM
lm
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On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:11:35 +1000, quietguy
wrote:

Kate, having read a few of your posts I have thought in the past that you were a
sensitive and caring person - but your thoughts below I find almost unbelievable
- SEND HER? SEND HER? Wheew hard to believe you really said that Kate.

Geez, if it was ever a time when Sage needed her mum with her it is now. I hope
her mum ignores that advice of yours, and if Sage wants to attend then mum
should TAKE her - to be with her, care for her, listen to her.

David

PS The rest of what you you wrote sounded OK though


The daughter has a good relationship with her father's family. It
sounds as though she'd have plenty of support there.

I've thought about this myself, what would I do if my boys' father
died. My presence would not be helpful to anyone, as there would be
way too much tension, and I don't think that would be fair to his
family at that time. I would ask my boys' adult cousin to be with them
at the ceremony.

lm
  #13  
Old April 30th 04, 01:08 PM
Tiffany
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"Tiffany" wrote in message
...


Again, thank to all for the support. All the advice has been helpful. The
service is Sunday so we will head up Saturday or Sunday morning. I haven't
really spoke with anyone yet, just message's left on the machine. I think
Sage would like to go up early to see everyone. I am not sending her alone,
I am going to drive her up. I will probably go off on my own for some time
though so she can have time with them. She is doing ok for now. She went to
school yesterday but I think it got to her, everyone cooing over her. She is
going to hang out with me today at work.

I copied the few pictures of him and her I have and she said she will make a
collage and frame it for him.

I am dreading this weekend. I know how its going to go, I hope I bite my
tongue if/when a relative talks like he was a great dad. I know that won't
be the time plus what they don't know won't hurt them. Maybe some muscle
relaxes are in order.

T


  #14  
Old May 2nd 04, 12:33 AM
quietguy
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'Kate wrote:

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:11:35 +1000, quietguy

Kate, having read a few of your posts I have thought in the past that you were a
sensitive and caring person - but your thoughts below I find almost unbelievable


SEND HER? SEND HER? Wheew hard to believe you really said that Kate.

Geez, if it was ever a time when Sage needed her mum with her it is now. I hope
her mum ignores that advice of yours, and if Sage wants to attend then mum
should TAKE her - to be with her, care for her, listen to her.

David

PS The rest of what you you wrote sounded OK though


"Send her" was because money IS a consideration. If it comes down to a
choice between her not going, one of them going, or both not going, I'd
rather she went alone. She is not going to strangers... she is going to
her grandparent. Unless you've had to make the choice, you wouldn't
understand. That's my rationale for that statement. Do you disagree
with it?


Yes I would disagree Kate, very strongly. Whist my views might change if I had more
information about that family, if Sage was to go alone my concerns would be...

She is a long way from home if things go horribly wrong

Funerals are often very traumatic for those concerned - people are often (sadly)
desperate to blame someone for what has happened - what if the family (or some
member of it) puts the blame for Sages fathers death on her? (eg if only Sage had
responded/been nicer/more forgiving/accepting/whatever then he wouldn't have died.

Perhaps others at the funeral will attempt to blame Sages mother - if only she been
nicer/accepting/whatever he wouldn't have turned to drugs. How would Sage handle
that?

What if the Grandparents own grief is so bad that they are simply unable to support
Sage?

Perhaps anger at the departed son will spill over to Sage?

Can Sage properly express her own feelings (what ever they may be) to people who are
in a state of grief. Especially any negative ones such as "why did he leave me" etc
etc) Perhaps she can, perhaps she cannot.

My experience (Social Worker - 20+ years as a counsellor/therapist) is that some of
the things I have listed above do happen, and not so rarely as we would like. I
could never advise a client to follow the path you suggest.


And oh, thanks for the critique.


It wasn't meant to be a critique - just not throwing the baby out with the bathwater

That's the culmination of 5 years of
research and work with children and grief. I don't see you
contributing anything but a review of my post and the nitpicking.


You are right here Kate about my contributions in the NG - and although I am making
an exception here, I generally reply to posts directly to the person concerned.

However, I think you are quite wrong in describing my objection to encouraging a
mother to let a young girl travel many miles alone to a very emotional and possibly
traumatic event as nitpicking. Were you giving that advice while acting in a
professional capacity, and things went badly wrong, you could easily end up on the
wrong side of a disiplinary hearing, and maybe a civil lawsuit.


David


  #15  
Old May 2nd 04, 12:48 AM
quietguy
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Posts: n/a
Default Update of all updates

Christine, it seems that while you are happy to attack me, (and that is OK) it
would be much more meaningfull if you showed somehow that you had at least read
my post in full.

As you will note in a post where I have responded to Kate, I believe the advice
she gave about sending a very young, confused, and distressed child to attend a
funeral by herself to be irresponsible and inapproriate.

And despite what you say, I didn't chuck her whole post, just the bit about
sending Sage off to funeral by herself

Had you bothered to read my PS - which read "The rest of what you you wrote
sounded OK though" you see clearly that I did not "chuck out" her whole post -
only that part I had grave concerns about.

If you really want to know who I am etc feel free to drop me a line anytime and
I will be happy to send you a copy of my resume.

IN the future - please take the time to read all of my post before jumping down
my throat.

David

CME wrote:

"quietguy" wrote in message
...
Kate, having read a few of your posts I have thought in the past that you

were a
sensitive and caring person - but your thoughts below I find almost

unbelievable
- SEND HER? SEND HER? Wheew hard to believe you really said that Kate.

Geez, if it was ever a time when Sage needed her mum with her it is now.

I hope
her mum ignores that advice of yours, and if Sage wants to attend then mum
should TAKE her - to be with her, care for her, listen to her.

David

PS The rest of what you you wrote sounded OK though

snipped Kate's post because someone top posted

Wow so you take her whole post and chuck it because she said Tiff should
send her daughter? So let me get this straight... now Kate's not a caring
and supportive person just because you happen to disagree with her advice???
Gimme a frickin break, who are you anyways? I may have been busy lately and
not posting as often but I sure don't see any posts of value coming from you
to rip someone apart that's been contributing to this ng for years. So
really I'd like to see you put in some effort before I start taking you
serious. Sheesh.

Christine
(Who's been here 4 years, so save it.)


  #16  
Old May 2nd 04, 01:13 AM
Tiffany
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update of all updates


"quietguy" wrote in message
...


'Kate wrote:

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:11:35 +1000, quietguy

Kate, having read a few of your posts I have thought in the past that

you were a
sensitive and caring person - but your thoughts below I find almost

unbelievable

SEND HER? SEND HER? Wheew hard to believe you really said that Kate.

Geez, if it was ever a time when Sage needed her mum with her it is

now. I hope
her mum ignores that advice of yours, and if Sage wants to attend then

mum
should TAKE her - to be with her, care for her, listen to her.

David

PS The rest of what you you wrote sounded OK though


"Send her" was because money IS a consideration. If it comes down to a
choice between her not going, one of them going, or both not going, I'd
rather she went alone. She is not going to strangers... she is going to
her grandparent. Unless you've had to make the choice, you wouldn't
understand. That's my rationale for that statement. Do you disagree
with it?


Yes I would disagree Kate, very strongly. Whist my views might change if

I had more
information about that family, if Sage was to go alone my concerns would

be...

She is a long way from home if things go horribly wrong

Funerals are often very traumatic for those concerned - people are often

(sadly)
desperate to blame someone for what has happened - what if the family (or

some
member of it) puts the blame for Sages fathers death on her? (eg if only

Sage had
responded/been nicer/more forgiving/accepting/whatever then he wouldn't

have died.

No one is even sure yet why he died. No one to blame. Her family has been
totally supportive her whole 13 years. I have trusted her care to them (she
would fly up to them alone for a week or two in the summer) and would under
any situation.


Perhaps others at the funeral will attempt to blame Sages mother - if only

she been
nicer/accepting/whatever he wouldn't have turned to drugs. How would Sage

handle
that?


Her father had drug issues when he was 16. They know no one is to blame but
him. If they are blaming anyone, it is sure to be themselves, as parents
often do.


What if the Grandparents own grief is so bad that they are simply unable

to support
Sage?

Perhaps anger at the departed son will spill over to Sage?

Can Sage properly express her own feelings (what ever they may be) to

people who are
in a state of grief. Especially any negative ones such as "why did he

leave me" etc
etc) Perhaps she can, perhaps she cannot.


Perhaps they have enough sense to not put that on her. I trust they would.

My experience (Social Worker - 20+ years as a counsellor/therapist) is

that some of
the things I have listed above do happen, and not so rarely as we would

like. I
could never advise a client to follow the path you suggest.


And oh, thanks for the critique.


It wasn't meant to be a critique - just not throwing the baby out with the

bathwater

That's the culmination of 5 years of
research and work with children and grief. I don't see you
contributing anything but a review of my post and the nitpicking.


You are right here Kate about my contributions in the NG - and although I

am making
an exception here, I generally reply to posts directly to the person

concerned.

However, I think you are quite wrong in describing my objection to

encouraging a
mother to let a young girl travel many miles alone to a very emotional and

possibly
traumatic event as nitpicking. Were you giving that advice while acting

in a
professional capacity, and things went badly wrong, you could easily end

up on the
wrong side of a disiplinary hearing, and maybe a civil lawsuit.


David



Kate was not giving any advice as a professional. This is a NG, not an
office. This is the internet and Kate might not even be female for all I
know. She could be a 18 year old with nothing better to do then give good
advice. I take what I need and she offered alot of help and will continue to
do so if I ask. That is the good thing about this.... support. Support and
professional help is 2 different things though. I have been hear sometime
and know Kate. I trust her advice.

Thank you for the concern. Everything I do I do with my child in mind. We
are going to the funeral together in the morning. Kate didn't know how far
we had to go so the advice to send was based on not knowing that, thinking I
might not be able to afford 2 airfares, ect. It isn't to far, we can drive
it. If it were much farther, I might have made the decision to fly her to
her family without me. I trust them completely.

Tiffany


  #17  
Old May 2nd 04, 01:24 AM
Tiffany
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update of all updates


"Tiffany" wrote in message
...


Things here have been ok. My daughter got pictures together (we only had a
few of the 2 of them) and we copied them and she made a poster of the pics
of her, her and him, his family, his dog, ect. It turned out pretty nice.
She is going to put it in the coffin.

She tells me she didn't want to go up there today because she knows when she
gets there, everyone is going to 'freak out'. I said, yes, they will be very
emotional and then you will become just as emotional and that is fine. But
she said, everyone thinks she should be so devastated but she isn't because
she didn't know him that well. I said that is true and a legitament feeling.
She said that I didn't seem upset, that I hadn't cried. I said, I am
different, I am not a big crier. But that is me, and she can cry all she
wants. She can scream and do anything and feel anything. It is hard for me
to tell her that I really don't feel much one way or the other. Anyone
losing their life is sad though. I feel for her and his family. When we
called up there to say we wouldn't be there until tomorrow, I think they
were upset. Oh well. I can't be concerned with everyone else, she comes
first.

So we are off early in the morning, the wake is at 3 then the funeral is
Monday morning.

Thanks again all for all the support.

Tiffany


  #18  
Old May 2nd 04, 02:21 PM
Paul Griffiths
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Posts: n/a
Default Update of all updates

"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

So we are off early in the morning, the wake is at 3 then the funeral is
Monday morning.

Thanks again all for all the support.


I hope it works out okay for you all. Thinking of you.


--
Paul Griffiths


  #19  
Old May 2nd 04, 09:10 PM
Paul Fritz
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Posts: n/a
Default Update of all updates


'Kate wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 May 2004 09:48:59 +1000, quietguy

Christine, it seems that while you are happy to attack me, (and that is

OK) it
would be much more meaningfull if you showed somehow that you had at

least read
my post in full.

As you will note in a post where I have responded to Kate, I believe

the advice
she gave about sending a very young, confused, and distressed child to

attend a
funeral by herself to be irresponsible and inapproriate.

And despite what you say, I didn't chuck her whole post, just the bit

about
sending Sage off to funeral by herself


You have trouble with the word IF don't you?


You'd think that after 20+ years of 'social work' the guy wuold have
better reading comprehension than what he shows here. '13-14' yo is not
"very young', nor likely confused, and nowhere did anyone say attedninf by
herself. The only irresponsiblity is the self proclaimed social worker and
his ASSuming........





  #20  
Old May 3rd 04, 12:14 AM
CME
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Update of all updates


"quietguy" wrote in message
...
Christine, it seems that while you are happy to attack me, (and that is

OK) it
would be much more meaningfull if you showed somehow that you had at least

read
my post in full.

As you will note in a post where I have responded to Kate, I believe the

advice
she gave about sending a very young, confused, and distressed child to

attend a
funeral by herself to be irresponsible and inapproriate.

And despite what you say, I didn't chuck her whole post, just the bit

about
sending Sage off to funeral by herself

Had you bothered to read my PS - which read "The rest of what you you

wrote
sounded OK though" you see clearly that I did not "chuck out" her whole

post -
only that part I had grave concerns about.

If you really want to know who I am etc feel free to drop me a line

anytime and
I will be happy to send you a copy of my resume.

IN the future - please take the time to read all of my post before jumping

down
my throat.

David


I am fully capable of reading, meaning I did read your 'PS'. Doesn't
change my evaluation of that particular post btw.

Christine

CME wrote:

"quietguy" wrote in message
...
Kate, having read a few of your posts I have thought in the past that

you
were a
sensitive and caring person - but your thoughts below I find almost

unbelievable
- SEND HER? SEND HER? Wheew hard to believe you really said that

Kate.

Geez, if it was ever a time when Sage needed her mum with her it is

now.
I hope
her mum ignores that advice of yours, and if Sage wants to attend then

mum
should TAKE her - to be with her, care for her, listen to her.

David

PS The rest of what you you wrote sounded OK though

snipped Kate's post because someone top posted

Wow so you take her whole post and chuck it because she said Tiff should
send her daughter? So let me get this straight... now Kate's not a

caring
and supportive person just because you happen to disagree with her

advice???
Gimme a frickin break, who are you anyways? I may have been busy lately

and
not posting as often but I sure don't see any posts of value coming from

you
to rip someone apart that's been contributing to this ng for years. So
really I'd like to see you put in some effort before I start taking you
serious. Sheesh.

Christine
(Who's been here 4 years, so save it.)




 




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