Incessant, relentless talking and needing constant attention.

That was very well put. When I went in search of a group of people who were
single parents, This group is what I came up with. It was the only one of
its kind and when I tried at yahoogroups, the groups that came up were
either porno in nature or there weren't any that were relevant. So yes... I
came here in desperation and yes, I do feel as though I'm being chased away.
and the nastiness of some on here is repulsive. You know, there once was a
time when a teacher of mine told me after class when I asked him a question
on something, he said, "you know, I'm pretty certain that at least a dozen
of your classmates have the same question." I had scoffed and asked how he
knew. He said, "because there were about 11 ahead of you asking me this very
question. The only 'stupid' question is the one that's not asked. If someone
asks a question, chances are good, others have the same question or can
relate to the confusion. If the question is not asked then all you'll know
is confusion unless you or someone else asks." Well, in the case of my son's
babbling, I was afraid to even ask the question of what to do because I was
afraid of the response that I've gotten thus far. When I saw that someone
else had the same problem, I found myself responding not with a solution but
with a reply that was more like, "you know, I've been wondering the same
thing! I'd be interested to see others' suggestions." and what do I get? I
get slammed and flamed and otherwise bullied. As of right now, I'm still
desperate for help with my son because the resources in my area are
seriously lacking. But you know, I doubt that I'll ever be *that* desperate
again as to come here for advice. I'm so sorry to have troubled all of
you.... "veterans" who've been there, done that and who feel the need to
tell those of us who are there and haven't yet done that to get lost. I
don't expect a lot of warm-fuzzies. I did expect a little bit of sympathy
and support, especially from those who have walked in my shoes before. I
don't expect tough love to not play a part. Sometimes it takes a good
bitchslap back into reality to get back on the horse that threw you down and
keep trying. Instead, I feel like I've been kicked when I'm down. There are
*NO* resources where I'm at and if there are, I don't know how to find them.
Like I said, sorry to have even bothered any of you. I won't leave though
because of the *******s who are just waiting for me to leave so they can
continue to be cruel over what a "coward" I was. I'll just silently hope
that someone will ask a question that I may have. and hope that the
question is answered.


--
"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it.
You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed."
~Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"lm" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:02:55 GMT, 'Kate
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:21:00 GMT, lm
wrote:

on temporary emotional support

That's true, and kind, and it's unfortunate that it's not really what
this forum is about.

lm

What do you suggest that we do to provide more support?

Let people vent.

You said in your response to the "seeking texas man" poster, "This
group is about the joy of being a single parent. You're very welcome
stay and chat about your experiences being a single mother."

It's an interesting description, and an honest one. This group is not
really about supporting people who are dealing with becoming or
remaining a single parent. The only threads that don't degenerate into
spats about what this group should be about are little news tidbits
that long-time posters say about their kids. It's a koffee klatch, not
a support group. A half-dozen or so people who have been here for too
long (myself included) -- rather than moving on themselves, they just
chase away newcomers. The group comprises the same people it did 2-3+
years ago. If it's really about only the happyhappyjoyjoy, perhaps the
name ought to be changed to alt.joy.single-parents.

To repeat a much-repeated phrase, it's called "support." The first
year or two of being a single parent are like childbirth -- those of
us who have been here a while can remember that it was very hard, but
we can't still feel the pain. That's a good thing for us, but maybe
what's happened is that when people who are still in that raw stage,
or who are desperate and scared, show us all that emotion and fear and
anger, we don't want to hear it because it brings our own pain back!
So we tell them to take their divorce questions to a.s.divorce and
their child support questions to a.s.child-support.

I could be way off about the reasons for it, but I suppose it doesn't
matter. People who are in pain are turned away because we don't like
the *way* they express their pain. Divorce and child support are part
of being a single parent (not for you, Joelle, we know), and venting
about the other parent is absolutely necessary if a poster needs to,
and doing so on usenet instead of at their kids or at their job or at
the other parent ought to be welcomed rather than discouraged.

What we're left with is some lukewarm flirting by a few members (which
is frowned upon by others), and some self-righteous boot-strapping by
tough-lovers who say you made your bed now lie in it, and every
disagreement on the issues degenerating into a bitch session about
what one poster or another's agenda is. WTF is an agenda? So steveb
thinks of support as something different than Christene does. Who
cares? Jesus if there was a thread called "what should my favorite
color be?" and people didn't agree, the thread would not be about the
plusses and minuses of different colours, or people's own feelings
about or experiences with different colours, but about what an idiot
so-and-so is because they think everyone's favorite colour should be
purple when anyone who's worth their salt knows the best colour is
blue! And who gives a **** about the poor poster who asked the
question in the first place!

I have opinions about some of the posters here too, it's human nature
to develop opinions about people, but my opinions don't belong here if
they're not constructive, so I end up hardly ever posting because it's
a joke.

Kate, do you remember when we talked? You were the soul of compassion.
You were so helpful to me when I was panicked, I was so frightened, I
didn't know what to do, I had no perspective, and there you were, from
2 time zones away, after all you had been through you gave me sound
advice and support. I've thanked you but I don't think I've thanked
you enough, made clear how important that help was for me -- you gave
me information without being cold, and you gave me support without
being mushy -- you were right there in the center and you drew from
both wells in just the right proportions. It helped at the time and
looking back on it, it was the right approach. I have only that
experience and this forum to go on, but I'm convinced you're in the
right field. You are going to be so good at what you do.

I also haven't said how hard it was for me to write that post that
ended up with us on the phone. I was so alone, this forum was *it* for
me at the time, and yet I edited myself so much in that post. I
apologized several times in it, I changed my words, I worried that I
would be flamed, in hindsight it was ridiculous that I should have to
worry like that in the midst of a crisis just to get some advice. And
I only knew to do that because I'd already been posting here a while.
If in the midst of a crisis I googled single parents support and
landed here, I'm sure I wouldnt' have known to post *correctly.*

Since then our life has improved exponentially. I've married, we've
moved away from the boys' father, I have legal custody, and we've
reached a point that the boys just a few weeks back called their
father for the first time, no occasion, just because they wanted to. I
don't need to be on this forum, and there isn't much to be here for --
I'm only still here because I'd like someday to be able to pay it
forward. That's an effect of your support.

The tough-love approach is absolutely valid. Giving people the
no-bull****-facts may well help in the long run, and it's certainly a
valid understanding of what support should be.

But the poor-baby-I-know-it's-hard approach is absolutely valid. It
may only have a momentary effect, but sometimes that's all that's
needed, and it too is a valid understanding of support.

The reason there's so little support on this forum is not that some
people are too cold, or that some people are too soft. It's that the
two won't get off each other's backs. Any response to new posters is
absolutely valid, if it's really to the poster and not a nudge-nudge
to other posters. Sitting around and congratulating ourselves that
we're better than they are is pathetic.

Different approaches and opinions are the point of a forum -- if you
want only one point of view you can get that from e-mail.

lm

"lm" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:02:55 GMT, 'Kate
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:21:00 GMT, lm
wrote:

on temporary emotional support

That's true, and kind, and it's unfortunate that it's not really what
this forum is about.

lm

What do you suggest that we do to provide more support?

Let people vent.

You said in your response to the "seeking texas man" poster, "This
group is about the joy of being a single parent. You're very welcome
stay and chat about your experiences being a single mother."

It's an interesting description, and an honest one. This group is not
really about supporting people who are dealing with becoming or
remaining a single parent. The only threads that don't degenerate into
spats about what this group should be about are little news tidbits
that long-time posters say about their kids. It's a koffee klatch, not
a support group.

I look at it as like a neighborhood bar, you stop in for a chat, dicuss the
latest issues, and go home......it is 'supportive" but not meant to replace
professional help, or real friends and family.......those that try to make
it that are in serious need of professional help.

A half-dozen or so people who have been here for too
long (myself included) -- rather than moving on themselves, they just
chase away newcomers.

Some newcomers look for validation of their own twisted ways, and when they
are not enabled (except for stevey) they go somewhere where they will hear
what they want to hear.....so what.

The group comprises the same people it did 2-3+
years ago. If it's really about only the happyhappyjoyjoy, perhaps the
name ought to be changed to alt.joy.single-parents.

Huh?


To repeat a much-repeated phrase, it's called "support." The first
year or two of being a single parent are like childbirth -- those of
us who have been here a while can remember that it was very hard, but
we can't still feel the pain. That's a good thing for us, but maybe
what's happened is that when people who are still in that raw stage,
or who are desperate and scared, show us all that emotion and fear and
anger, we don't want to hear it because it brings our own pain back!
So we tell them to take their divorce questions to a.s.divorce and
their child support questions to a.s.child-support.

I could be way off about the reasons for it, but I suppose it doesn't
matter. People who are in pain are turned away because we don't like
the *way* they express their pain.

No, people that are looking to be enabled don't get the 'support' they wish
to hear.

Divorce and child support are part
of being a single parent (not for you, Joelle, we know), and venting
about the other parent is absolutely necessary if a poster needs to,
and doing so on usenet instead of at their kids or at their job or at
the other parent ought to be welcomed rather than discouraged.

So you think that we should be supportive, say of a person that is thinking
of filing false abuse charges against an ex in order to deny parenting time?


What we're left with is some lukewarm flirting by a few members (which
is frowned upon by others), and some self-righteous boot-strapping by
tough-lovers who say you made your bed now lie in it, and every
disagreement on the issues degenerating into a bitch session about
what one poster or another's agenda is. WTF is an agenda? So steveb
thinks of support as something different than Christene does. Who
cares? Jesus if there was a thread called "what should my favorite
color be?" and people didn't agree, the thread would not be about the
plusses and minuses of different colours, or people's own feelings
about or experiences with different colours, but about what an idiot
so-and-so is because they think everyone's favorite colour should be
purple when anyone who's worth their salt knows the best colour is
blue! And who gives a **** about the poor poster who asked the
question in the first place!

You've come close to hitting the nail on the head. There are a certain
few that feel they need to tell others how and what to post, rather than
just ignore / killfile them.


Opinions are like assholes......everyone has one, and not all of them are
pretty. :-)



I have opinions about some of the posters here too, it's human nature
to develop opinions about people, but my opinions don't belong here if
they're not constructive, so I end up hardly ever posting because it's
a joke.

Kate, do you remember when we talked? You were the soul of compassion.
You were so helpful to me when I was panicked, I was so frightened, I
didn't know what to do, I had no perspective, and there you were, from
2 time zones away, after all you had been through you gave me sound
advice and support. I've thanked you but I don't think I've thanked
you enough, made clear how important that help was for me -- you gave
me information without being cold, and you gave me support without
being mushy -- you were right there in the center and you drew from
both wells in just the right proportions. It helped at the time and
looking back on it, it was the right approach. I have only that
experience and this forum to go on, but I'm convinced you're in the
right field. You are going to be so good at what you do.

I also haven't said how hard it was for me to write that post that
ended up with us on the phone. I was so alone, this forum was *it* for
me at the time, and yet I edited myself so much in that post. I
apologized several times in it, I changed my words, I worried that I
would be flamed, in hindsight it was ridiculous that I should have to
worry like that in the midst of a crisis just to get some advice. And
I only knew to do that because I'd already been posting here a while.
If in the midst of a crisis I googled single parents support and
landed here, I'm sure I wouldnt' have known to post *correctly.*

Since then our life has improved exponentially. I've married, we've
moved away from the boys' father, I have legal custody, and we've
reached a point that the boys just a few weeks back called their
father for the first time, no occasion, just because they wanted to. I
don't need to be on this forum, and there isn't much to be here for --
I'm only still here because I'd like someday to be able to pay it
forward. That's an effect of your support.

The tough-love approach is absolutely valid. Giving people the
no-bull****-facts may well help in the long run, and it's certainly a
valid understanding of what support should be.

But the poor-baby-I-know-it's-hard approach is absolutely valid. It
may only have a momentary effect, but sometimes that's all that's
needed, and it too is a valid understanding of support.

The reason there's so little support on this forum is not that some
people are too cold, or that some people are too soft. It's that the
two won't get off each other's backs. Any response to new posters is
absolutely valid, if it's really to the poster and not a nudge-nudge
to other posters. Sitting around and congratulating ourselves that
we're better than they are is pathetic.

Different approaches and opinions are the point of a forum -- if you
want only one point of view you can get that from e-mail.

lm

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:48:12 -0500, "P.Fritz"
wrote:

Stevey needs to look to alt.pyschology.projection to get help for his
problems.

Of course the problem you have, Pauly, is that I go away for best part
of a year, and whenever I come back, a different bunch of people are
saying exactly the things I said, about all the same posters.

So how do you explain that away hon?

And why hasn't Dennis told me to ***** Off* yet? It's his normal
response

steveb

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:28:26 GMT, lm
wrote:

The reason there's so little support on this forum is not that some
people are too cold, or that some people are too soft. It's that the
two won't get off each other's backs. Any response to new posters is
absolutely valid, if it's really to the poster and not a nudge-nudge
to other posters. Sitting around and congratulating ourselves that
we're better than they are is pathetic.

After the last little spat with the *usual suspects*, I was away for
nearly a year (yes I know it wasn't long enough for some of you ....
but here is the thing .... what you think doesn't matter)

When I return, the very same things are being said, about the same
people, by a new (and some old) bunch of posters.

Paul, Dennis, Christine, Tiffany ....... you support no one other than
your own egos. Try doing what I did .... take a year off, then come
back and let us see if a difference is made.

steveb

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:56:53 -0700, "slykitten"
wrote:

" and what do I get? I
get slammed and flamed and otherwise bullied.

Slykitten ......

*Take what you need, and leave the rest*

Put those you feel offer no support in your killfile ..... and leave
them there. They are ex-posters, they don't exist in your Universe,
they will bring you only pain and anger (a deal-breaker)

Treat those people with the same utter contempt you treat the stuff
you scrape off your shoes! They are not worth your energy, or your
emotion. If sufficient people killfile, and keep killfiled, then they
will leave. They can even stay, no one will see them.

If you do this, then the only replies you will see will be the genuine
ones. You won't always agree with them (any more than I always agree
with people I respect), but you will be able to enjoy a debate, free
of thewhite noise of the clowns and the emotional cripples.

You can be a part of reclaiming this newsgroup for those who want to
offer and receive support, and take it from those who wish to support
their fragile egos by slapping people least able to deal with it.

Don't anyone make the mistake of thinking I want any form of position
here. I have shown you all I am quite prepared to stay away for long
periods, and *drop in* occasionally. This will not change anytime
soon.

OTOH, there are serial bullies here, and they need to be shown some of
the *tough love* (sic) they show others. Then they need to be shown
the door

my 2c

ssteveb

On 24 Dec 2004 18:41:44 GMT, oaway (Joelle) wrote:

Divorce and child support are part
of being a single parent (not for you, Joelle, we know)

Why don't you give it a rest. What you said is REALLY stupid, considering to
who m you are responding.

She doesn't hold herself above everyone else because she's widowed.
You do.

lm

On 24 Dec 2004 20:18:52 GMT, oaway (Joelle) wrote:

She doesn't hold herself above everyone else because she's widowed.
You do.

How sad that here it is Christmas and you can't resist taking a shot at me in a
thread that has nothing to do with me.

Joelle, the only thing you commented on in my entire post was what was
addressed directly to you. You *do* throw your widowhood around
regularly, and you're the chief of the I'm-better-than-you-are set.
Big deal that I call you on it. You're pretty good at dishing and not
taking. I guess that's what happens when you're the boss at home, at
work, and in the community.

Kate asked me a question and as I always do with Kate's comments, I
considered it seriously. You snipped the whole thing and commented on
one sentence. Nothing about the merits of my entire argument, about
the value of this newsgroup to any parents but the 7 or 8 regulars who
find joy in zinging each other, to the detriment of people who may
benefit from varied thoughts rather than the same old **** ad nauseum.

So what if it's Christmas? It's a coincidence that the subject came up
on Christmas Eve in a way that made me feel like responding. What's
sad is that you and others on this newsgroup live this way, all year.
I'm not Christian, I'm Buddhist. I have compassion for all beings. I
feel sorry for you and I feel very sorry for your children and your
congregation.

lm

This is not the only usenet group that steveb attempts to control. Be wary
of his motives. Use Google as your friend to determine who is really
telling the truth.

Joelle, the only thing you commented on in my entire post was what was
addressed directly to you.

Well, duh. Because it was the stupidest thing you said. And the most
hypocritical. You lecture the group about how bad we are and then out of
nowhere you throw a totally unasked for jab at me.

You *do* throw your widowhood around
regularly,

No, I don't. I rarely mention it...and the fact that the few times I do bring
it up bothers you is about you, not me.

I guess that's what happens when you're the boss at home, at
work, and in the community

Oh yea. I'm so the boss everywhere. That's very amusing. Thank you.

You snipped the whole thing and commented on
one sentence.

Because you negated any credibility you might have to lecture the group by such
a childish, silly, unprovoked remark.

ut the 7 or 8 regulars who
find joy in zinging each other, to the detriment of people who may
benefit from varied thoughts rather than the same old **** ad nauseum

Oh my god,...you truly do not see the irony of what you just said.


I
feel sorry for you and I feel very sorry for your children and your
congregation.

Right. And I'm the badass judgmental one.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

"Joelle" wrote in message
...
Joelle, the only thing you commented on in my entire post was what was
addressed directly to you.

Well, duh. Because it was the stupidest thing you said. And the most
hypocritical. You lecture the group about how bad we are and then out
of
nowhere you throw a totally unasked for jab at me.

You *do* throw your widowhood around
regularly,

No, I don't. I rarely mention it...and the fact that the few times I do
bring
it up bothers you is about you, not me.

I guess that's what happens when you're the boss at home, at
work, and in the community

Oh yea. I'm so the boss everywhere. That's very amusing. Thank you.

You snipped the whole thing and commented on
one sentence.

Because you negated any credibility you might have to lecture the group
by such
a childish, silly, unprovoked remark.

ut the 7 or 8 regulars who
find joy in zinging each other, to the detriment of people who may
benefit from varied thoughts rather than the same old **** ad nauseum

Oh my god,...you truly do not see the irony of what you just said.


I
feel sorry for you and I feel very sorry for your children and your
congregation.

Right. And I'm the badass judgmental one.

Well, if it is any consolation, I don't feel the same way. While we
don't always see eye to eye, I certainly respect your unique viewpoint,
(don't mean that as a negative either)

BTW Merry Christmas

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle