Does a fetus feel pain? (also: Ultrasound images are such fun but...WAAH!)

DOES A FETUS FEEL PAIN?

Are MDs too biased to be trusted regarding whether fetuses feel pain?

See one powerful source of MD bias - potential prison time - below.

(I am in favor of pardons in advance for MDs. As medical students, MDs
are TRAINED to perform obvious felonies. See below.)


ULTRASOUND IMAGES ARE SUCH FUN BUT...WAAH!

Pologirl wrote of her daughter's scan: "the [ultrasound] technician
buzzed her...WAAH! That woke her up."

[D]uring one of Hungry Girl's many 3rd trimester scans she was inactive.
She had been very lively earlier that day, and I was sure that she was
simply just asleep but to be certain, the [ultrasound] US technician buzzed her with
a sonic vibrator. WAAH! That woke her up.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc....452b79b902da2b

DR. GASTALDO REMARKS

Pologirl wrote of her daughter's "many 3rd trimester scans"...

Pologirl's daughter's scans were likely medically necessary...



Regarding medically UNnecessary ultrasound scans.

I agree with the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
(ACOG) which "discourag[es] the use of obstetric ultrasonography for
nonmedical purposes (eg, solely to create keepsake photographs or
videos)." [Obstet Gynecol. 2004 Aug;104(2):423-4. PubMed abstract]

There may be signifcant risks...

PREGNANT WOMEN who are reading and pondering whether to have
unnecessary ultrasounds might be interested in the following...

In 2005, I wrote...

Todd Gastaldo
Date:Thurs, Mar 31 2005 9:04 pm
Groups: misc.kids.pregnancy

ULTRASOUND IMAGES ARE SUCH FUN BUT...

Turn up a standard ultrasound too high and it HURTS.

How would one know that a baby is being funny (or just active) and is
not
being hurt by the ultrasound?

SOMETHING - maybe the ultrasound? - caused the third more intrauterine
growth retardation in the 5 ultrasounds group relative to the 1
ultrasound
group discussed by Marsden Wagner, MD below.

In 1999, Marsden Wagner, MD, a neonatologist and perinatal
epidemiologist
responsible for maternal and child health in the European Regional
Office of
the World Health Organization for fourteen years wrote:

"[W]e now have sufficient scientific data to be able to say that
routine
prenatal ultrasound scanning has no effectiveness and may very well
carry
risks..."
http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articl...p?q=ultrasound


[November 30, 2006 addendum: Pologirl wrote to Debbie who was
concerned about not enough motion: "Did they listen to the heartbeat?
If that was normal then I would not
worry." If listening to the heartbeat is sufficient, the ultrasound is
likely unnecessary - or so it seems to me.]

Regarding a 1993 study, Dr. Wagner remarked:

From 2,834 pregnant women, 1,415 received ultrasound imaging at 18,
24, 28,
34 and 38 weeks gestation (intensive group) while the other 1,419
received
single ultrasound imaging at 18 weeks (regular group).

The only difference between the two groups was significantly higher
(one-third more) intrauterine growth retardation in the intensive
group.

This important and serious finding prompted the authors to state: "It
would
seem prudent to limit ultrasound examinations of the fetus to those
cases in
which the information is likely to be of clinical importance."

END Dr. Wagner's remark...


Ultrasound images are such fun - but - I say again - SOMETHING - maybe
the
ultrasound? - caused the third more intrauterine growth retardation in
the 5
ultrasound group relative to the 1 ultrasound group.

Do we know anymore about the risks of ultrasound?

Anyone know?

One last matter - ultrasound output...

Dr. Wagner wrote in 1999...

The safety issue is made more complicated by the problem of exposure
conditions. Clearly, any bio-effects that might occur as a result of
ultrasound would depend on the dose of ultrasound received by the fetus
or
woman. But there are no national or international standards for the
output
characteristics of ultrasound equipment. The result is the shocking
situation described in a commentary in the British Journal of
Obstetrics and
Gynaecology, in which ultrasound machines in use on pregnant women
range in
output power from extremely high to extremely low, all with equal
effect.
The commentary reads, "If the machines with the lowest powers have been

shown to be diagnostically adequate, how can one possibly justify
exposing
the patient to a dose 5,000 times greater?" It goes on to urge
government
guidelines on the output of ultrasound equipment and for legislation
making
it mandatory for equipment manufacturers to state the output
characteristics. As far as is known, this has not yet been done in any
country.

5,000 times difference in dose?!

[November 30, 2006 comment: Significant difference in dose may have
something to do with one baby moving a lot and another not.]

Surely they must have standardized output by now...

Todd

Dr. Gastaldo
Hillsboro, Oregon
USA


.....

END excerpt of Dr. Gastaldo's 2005 post about ultrasound

RESEARCHERS ARE STUDYING FETAL MOVEMENTS DURING ULTRASOUND SCANS

No mention of the possibility that the ultrasound scans are causing
pain...

J Matern Fetal Neonatal Med. 2006 Nov;19(11):707-21. PubMed abstract
Normal standards of fetal behavior assessed by four-dimensional
sonography.
Yigiter AB,
Kavak ZN.
Fetal Medicine Unit, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Marmara
University School of Medicine, Haydarpasa, Istanbul, Turkey.
Objective. In this prospective randomized study, fetal behavior was
investigated in order to determine the standard parameters of fetal
movements and facial expressions in all three trimesters of normal
pregnancy.Methods. Sixty-three pregnant women with singleton
pregnancies in all trimesters were included in the investigation.
Four-dimensional (4D) ultrasound was performed for each patient over a
30-minute period. Variables of maternal and fetal characteristics
including gestational age, eight fetal movement patterns in the first
trimester, and sixteen parameters of fetal movement and fetal facial
expression patterns in the second and third trimesters were recorded
for the construction of fetal neurological charts.Results. In the first
trimester, a tendency towards an increased frequency of fetal movement
patterns with increasing gestational age was noticed. Only the startle
movement pattern seemed to occur stagnantly during the first trimester
(p 0.05). At the beginning of the second trimester, the frequency of
fetal movement patterns tended to increase. During the second and third
trimester, multiple regression and polynomial regression revealed
statistically significant changes in tongue expulsion (p 0.05),
smiling (p 0.05), grimacing (p 0.05), swallowing (p 0.05), eye
blinking (p 0.01), head movements, and all hand to body contact
movements (p 0.01), except for head anteflexion (p 0.05). There
were no statistically significant changes during the second and third
trimesters in mouthing, yawning, and sucking (p 0.05). At the middle
of the third trimester, the fetuses displayed decreasing or stagnant
incidence of fetal facial expressions except for eye blinking, which
showed increased frequency with increasing gestational age. A
statistically significant correlation was found between all head
movements and hand to body contact patterns during the second and third
trimesters except for head anteflexion (r = -0.231; p
0.05).Conclusions. The full range of quantitative fetal facial
expressions and fetal movement patterns can be assessed successfully by
4D sonography. It is important to be able to assess normal fetal
behavior throughout gestation to identify abnormal behavior before
birth.

Again, how would one know that a baby is being funny (or just active)
and is not
being hurt by the ultrasound?

ONE POWERFUL SOURCE OF MD BIAS...

It should be born in mind that for years MDs spread the fraudulent
notion that babies do not feel pain because they lack myelin.

It was an obvious hoax: Most of the nervous system never becomes
myelinated and the most excruciating qualities of pain are thought to
be transmitted by unmyelinated nerves.

Phony "babies can't feel pain" neurology was the basis for American
medicine's most frequent surgical behavior toward males - ripping and
slicing infant penises.

MDs could go to prison for their ongoing infant penis ripping and
slicing behavior/lying - so they would likely be biased against
suggesting that babies feel pain during ultrasounds...

ALSO NOTEWORTHY: American MDs did some strange things after I called
for an end to the mass infant penis ripping and slicing child abuse -
and for a religious exemption from the child abuse statutes for the
ancient Jewish ritual that leaves most of the foreskin on the penis...

See 'The Heckler's veto' (also: Barrett v. Rosenthal: The Court's shaky
factual bkgrnd)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...5edd9405684253

DOES A FETUS FEEL PAIN?

I searched PubMed for "when do fetuses feel pain"...

1: Tighe M. Fetuses can feel pain.
BMJ. 2006 Apr 29;332(7548):1036. No abstract available.

2: Derbyshire SW.Can fetuses feel pain?
BMJ. 2006 Apr 15;332(7546):909-12. No abstract available.

3: Glover V.The fetus may feel pain from 20 weeks.
Conscience. 2004-2005 Winter;25(3):35-7. No abstract available.

4: Derbyshire SW, Glover V.The fetus does not feel pain.
Conscience. 2004-2005 Winter;25(3):32-5. No abstract available.

5: Monschein M.[Fetuses are supposed to feel no pain before the 30th
week. Disputed study questions U.S. law draft]
Kinderkrankenschwester. 2005 Nov;24(11):472. German. No abstract
available.

6: Coghlan A, Young E.Why fetuses don't feel pain.
New Sci. 2005 Sep 3-9;187(2515):8-9. No abstract available.

7: Grady D.Study finds 29-week fetuses probably feel no pain and need
no abortion anesthesia.
NY Times (Print). 2005 Aug 24;:A10. No abstract available.

8: White MC, Wolf AR.
Pain and stress in the human fetus.
Best Pract Res Clin Anaesthesiol. 2004 Jun;18(2):205-20. Review.

9: van Lingen RA, Simons SH, Anderson BJ, Tibboel D.The effects of
analgesia in the vulnerable infant during the perinatal period.
Clin Perinatol. 2002 Sep;29(3):511-34. Review.

10: Benatar D, Benatar M.A pain in the fetus: toward ending confusion
about fetal pain.
Bioethics. 2001 Feb;15(1):57-76.

11: Vanhatalo S, van Nieuwenhuizen O.Fetal pain?
Brain Dev. 2000 May;22(3):145-50. Review.

12: Goodman NW.Changing tactics in the abortion argument: does a fetus
feel pain?
Br J Hosp Med. 1997 Dec 10;58(11):550.


I am glad ACOG is discouraging MD-obstetricians from exposing fetuses
to nonmedical ultrasound. See quote above.

Hopefully ACOG will someday discourage MD-obstetricians from routinely
closing birth canals up to 30% and routinely robbing babies of 50% of
their blood volume.

NOTE: Just as American MDs lied for years - used phony "babies can't
feel pain" neurology - ACOG is lying about the birth canal closing - on
video. See OB Lie #4.

For the Four OB Lies (they are whoppers)...

See See Dents in babies' skulls"
http://groups.google.com/group/
misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/08abfc7ff242150e

Alternate URL:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/3897

"CHANGING TACTICS IN THE ABORTION ARGUMENT"

Regarding ref #12 above: Goodman NW.Changing tactics in the abortion
argument: does a fetus feel pain?
Br J Hosp Med. 1997 Dec 10;58(11):550....

I am opposed to abortion but agree with the five (?) Supremes who in
Roe v Wade somehow found abortion choice in the US Constitution.

This culture has as doing crazy things to our babies.

This culture also has us doing crazy things to ourselves to make
babies.

See Are breast implants a form of 'speed seduction'?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...599bebe95a7c06

Thanks for reading everyone.

Todd

Dr. Gastaldo
Hillsboro, Oregon
USA


This post will be archived for global access in the Google usenet
archive. Search http://groups.google.com for "Does a fetus feel pain?
(also: Ultrasound images are such fun but...WAAH!)"

In article .com,
wrote:

DOES A FETUS FEEL PAIN?

Are MDs too biased to be trusted regarding whether fetuses feel pain?

See one powerful source of MD bias - potential prison time - below.

(I am in favor of pardons in advance for MDs. As medical students, MDs
are TRAINED to perform obvious felonies. See below.)


ULTRASOUND IMAGES ARE SUCH FUN BUT...WAAH!

Pologirl wrote of her daughter's scan: "the [ultrasound] technician
buzzed her...WAAH! That woke her up."

[D]uring one of Hungry Girl's many 3rd trimester scans she was inactive.
She had been very lively earlier that day, and I was sure that she was
simply just asleep but to be certain, the [ultrasound] US technician
buzzed her with
a sonic vibrator. WAAH! That woke her up.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc....452b79b902da2b

DR. GASTALDO REMARKS

Pologirl wrote of her daughter's "many 3rd trimester scans"...

Pologirl's daughter's scans were likely medically necessary...



Regarding medically UNnecessary ultrasound scans.

I agree with the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
(ACOG) which "discourag[es] the use of obstetric ultrasonography for
nonmedical purposes (eg, solely to create keepsake photographs or
videos)." [Obstet Gynecol. 2004 Aug;104(2):423-4. PubMed abstract]

There may be signifcant risks...

PREGNANT WOMEN who are reading and pondering whether to have
unnecessary ultrasounds might be interested in the following...

In 2005, I wrote...

Todd Gastaldo
Date:Thurs, Mar 31 2005 9:04 pm
Groups: misc.kids.pregnancy

ULTRASOUND IMAGES ARE SUCH FUN BUT...

Turn up a standard ultrasound too high and it HURTS.

How would one know that a baby is being funny (or just active) and is
not
being hurt by the ultrasound?

SOMETHING - maybe the ultrasound? - caused the third more intrauterine
growth retardation in the 5 ultrasounds group relative to the 1
ultrasound
group discussed by Marsden Wagner, MD below.

In 1999, Marsden Wagner, MD, a neonatologist and perinatal
epidemiologist
responsible for maternal and child health in the European Regional
Office of
the World Health Organization for fourteen years wrote:

"[W]e now have sufficient scientific data to be able to say that
routine
prenatal ultrasound scanning has no effectiveness and may very well
carry
risks..."
http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articl...p?q=ultrasound


[November 30, 2006 addendum: Pologirl wrote to Debbie who was
concerned about not enough motion: "Did they listen to the heartbeat?
If that was normal then I would not
worry." If listening to the heartbeat is sufficient, the ultrasound is
likely unnecessary - or so it seems to me.]

Regarding a 1993 study, Dr. Wagner remarked:

From 2,834 pregnant women, 1,415 received ultrasound imaging at 18,
24, 28,
34 and 38 weeks gestation (intensive group) while the other 1,419
received
single ultrasound imaging at 18 weeks (regular group).

The only difference between the two groups was significantly higher
(one-third more) intrauterine growth retardation in the intensive
group.

This important and serious finding prompted the authors to state: "It
would
seem prudent to limit ultrasound examinations of the fetus to those
cases in
which the information is likely to be of clinical importance."

END Dr. Wagner's remark...


Ultrasound images are such fun - but - I say again - SOMETHING - maybe
the
ultrasound? - caused the third more intrauterine growth retardation in
the 5
ultrasound group relative to the 1 ultrasound group.

Do we know anymore about the risks of ultrasound?

Anyone know?

One last matter - ultrasound output...

Dr. Wagner wrote in 1999...

The safety issue is made more complicated by the problem of exposure
conditions. Clearly, any bio-effects that might occur as a result of
ultrasound would depend on the dose of ultrasound received by the fetus
or
woman. But there are no national or international standards for the
output
characteristics of ultrasound equipment. The result is the shocking
situation described in a commentary in the British Journal of
Obstetrics and
Gynaecology, in which ultrasound machines in use on pregnant women
range in
output power from extremely high to extremely low, all with equal
effect.
The commentary reads, "If the machines with the lowest powers have been

shown to be diagnostically adequate, how can one possibly justify
exposing
the patient to a dose 5,000 times greater?" It goes on to urge
government
guidelines on the output of ultrasound equipment and for legislation
making
it mandatory for equipment manufacturers to state the output
characteristics. As far as is known, this has not yet been done in any
country.

5,000 times difference in dose?!

[November 30, 2006 comment: Significant difference in dose may have
something to do with one baby moving a lot and another not.]

Surely they must have standardized output by now...

Todd

Dr. Gastaldo
Hillsboro, Oregon
USA


....

END excerpt of Dr. Gastaldo's 2005 post about ultrasound

RESEARCHERS ARE STUDYING FETAL MOVEMENTS DURING ULTRASOUND SCANS

No mention of the possibility that the ultrasound scans are causing
pain...

J Matern Fetal Neonatal Med. 2006 Nov;19(11):707-21. PubMed abstract
Normal standards of fetal behavior assessed by four-dimensional
sonography.
Yigiter AB,
Kavak ZN.
Fetal Medicine Unit, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Marmara
University School of Medicine, Haydarpasa, Istanbul, Turkey.
Objective. In this prospective randomized study, fetal behavior was
investigated in order to determine the standard parameters of fetal
movements and facial expressions in all three trimesters of normal
pregnancy.Methods. Sixty-three pregnant women with singleton
pregnancies in all trimesters were included in the investigation.
Four-dimensional (4D) ultrasound was performed for each patient over a
30-minute period. Variables of maternal and fetal characteristics
including gestational age, eight fetal movement patterns in the first
trimester, and sixteen parameters of fetal movement and fetal facial
expression patterns in the second and third trimesters were recorded
for the construction of fetal neurological charts.Results. In the first
trimester, a tendency towards an increased frequency of fetal movement
patterns with increasing gestational age was noticed. Only the startle
movement pattern seemed to occur stagnantly during the first trimester
(p 0.05). At the beginning of the second trimester, the frequency of
fetal movement patterns tended to increase. During the second and third
trimester, multiple regression and polynomial regression revealed
statistically significant changes in tongue expulsion (p 0.05),
smiling (p 0.05), grimacing (p 0.05), swallowing (p 0.05), eye
blinking (p 0.01), head movements, and all hand to body contact
movements (p 0.01), except for head anteflexion (p 0.05). There
were no statistically significant changes during the second and third
trimesters in mouthing, yawning, and sucking (p 0.05). At the middle
of the third trimester, the fetuses displayed decreasing or stagnant
incidence of fetal facial expressions except for eye blinking, which
showed increased frequency with increasing gestational age. A
statistically significant correlation was found between all head
movements and hand to body contact patterns during the second and third
trimesters except for head anteflexion (r = -0.231; p
0.05).Conclusions. The full range of quantitative fetal facial
expressions and fetal movement patterns can be assessed successfully by
4D sonography. It is important to be able to assess normal fetal
behavior throughout gestation to identify abnormal behavior before
birth.

Again, how would one know that a baby is being funny (or just active)
and is not
being hurt by the ultrasound?

ONE POWERFUL SOURCE OF MD BIAS...

It should be born in mind that for years MDs spread the fraudulent
notion that babies do not feel pain because they lack myelin.

It was an obvious hoax: Most of the nervous system never becomes
myelinated and the most excruciating qualities of pain are thought to
be transmitted by unmyelinated nerves.

Phony "babies can't feel pain" neurology was the basis for American
medicine's most frequent surgical behavior toward males - ripping and
slicing infant penises.

MDs could go to prison for their ongoing infant penis ripping and
slicing behavior/lying - so they would likely be biased against
suggesting that babies feel pain during ultrasounds...

ALSO NOTEWORTHY: American MDs did some strange things after I called
for an end to the mass infant penis ripping and slicing child abuse -
and for a religious exemption from the child abuse statutes for the
ancient Jewish ritual that leaves most of the foreskin on the penis...

See 'The Heckler's veto' (also: Barrett v. Rosenthal: The Court's shaky
factual bkgrnd)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...5edd9405684253

DOES A FETUS FEEL PAIN?

I searched PubMed for "when do fetuses feel pain"...

1: Tighe M. Fetuses can feel pain.
BMJ. 2006 Apr 29;332(7548):1036. No abstract available.

2: Derbyshire SW.Can fetuses feel pain?
BMJ. 2006 Apr 15;332(7546):909-12. No abstract available.

3: Glover V.The fetus may feel pain from 20 weeks.
Conscience. 2004-2005 Winter;25(3):35-7. No abstract available.

4: Derbyshire SW, Glover V.The fetus does not feel pain.
Conscience. 2004-2005 Winter;25(3):32-5. No abstract available.

5: Monschein M.[Fetuses are supposed to feel no pain before the 30th
week. Disputed study questions U.S. law draft]
Kinderkrankenschwester. 2005 Nov;24(11):472. German. No abstract
available.

6: Coghlan A, Young E.Why fetuses don't feel pain.
New Sci. 2005 Sep 3-9;187(2515):8-9. No abstract available.

7: Grady D.Study finds 29-week fetuses probably feel no pain and need
no abortion anesthesia.
NY Times (Print). 2005 Aug 24;:A10. No abstract available.

8: White MC, Wolf AR.
Pain and stress in the human fetus.
Best Pract Res Clin Anaesthesiol. 2004 Jun;18(2):205-20. Review.

9: van Lingen RA, Simons SH, Anderson BJ, Tibboel D.The effects of
analgesia in the vulnerable infant during the perinatal period.
Clin Perinatol. 2002 Sep;29(3):511-34. Review.

10: Benatar D, Benatar M.A pain in the fetus: toward ending confusion
about fetal pain.
Bioethics. 2001 Feb;15(1):57-76.

11: Vanhatalo S, van Nieuwenhuizen O.Fetal pain?
Brain Dev. 2000 May;22(3):145-50. Review.

12: Goodman NW.Changing tactics in the abortion argument: does a fetus
feel pain?
Br J Hosp Med. 1997 Dec 10;58(11):550.


I am glad ACOG is discouraging MD-obstetricians from exposing fetuses
to nonmedical ultrasound. See quote above.

Hopefully ACOG will someday discourage MD-obstetricians from routinely
closing birth canals up to 30% and routinely robbing babies of 50% of
their blood volume.

NOTE: Just as American MDs lied for years - used phony "babies can't
feel pain" neurology - ACOG is lying about the birth canal closing - on
video. See OB Lie #4.

For the Four OB Lies (they are whoppers)...

See See Dents in babies' skulls"
http://groups.google.com/group/
misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/08abfc7ff242150e

Alternate URL:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/3897

"CHANGING TACTICS IN THE ABORTION ARGUMENT"

Regarding ref #12 above: Goodman NW.Changing tactics in the abortion
argument: does a fetus feel pain?
Br J Hosp Med. 1997 Dec 10;58(11):550....

I am opposed to abortion but agree with the five (?) Supremes who in
Roe v Wade somehow found abortion choice in the US Constitution.

This culture has as doing crazy things to our babies.

This culture also has us doing crazy things to ourselves to make
babies.

See Are breast implants a form of 'speed seduction'?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...599bebe95a7c06

Thanks for reading everyone.

Todd

Dr. Gastaldo
Hillsboro, Oregon
USA


This post will be archived for global access in the Google usenet
archive. Search http://groups.google.com for "Does a fetus feel pain?
(also: Ultrasound images are such fun but...WAAH!)"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The best way to answer the question:
Does a fetus feel pain?
is to have a camera crew film several 5 month old babies in a large
hospital as a doctor or nurse gave the babies shots.
If most of those babies cried when the shot was given, that would be proof
that 5 month old babies felt pain.
A better question would be:
At what age does a fetus feel pain?
It's my guess that the fetus does not feel pain until the second trimester.
Jason
Jason