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#501
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School Choice (was How Children REALLY React To Control)
Nathan A. Barclay wrote:
"Banty" wrote in message ... In article , Nathan A. Barclay says... However, when government pushes children from different backgrounds together in public schools, it destroys that positive right to be with some different group during school hours. In the process, it forces children (and also teachers) to act in a way that is compatible with the rights of the people government told the children to be with. That creates artificial restrictions that would not exist if the children were gathered into a group based on mutual agreement. Wow. I must say this brings back memories. I haven't read this kind of segregationist thinking since my growing up years in Texas. I'm nearly 50 now. You're misusing the term "segregationist." The thing that made racial segregation so horrible and immoral was that it was forced onto people against their will. ----------------- Nonsense, it was totally voluntary and it was STILL toxic to the society! Black people were shut out of society's mainstream and into a relatively small corner. They were segregated - set apart - whether they liked it or not. --------------------- Nope, whites moved elsewhere, and blacks did too, they knew when they weren't wanted by some criminal personalities. Voluntary separation so that people can pursue different desires without interfering with each other's rights is an entirely different matter. ----------------------- Again you're pretending that your kids would agree to any of your **** if they had a choice! It is not a threat to freedom, but rather is an integral part of freedom. -------------------- For adults in private, not in public space or for compelling State interests. It occurs as a side effect of people's pursuing different goals or wanting to be in different kinds of environments, not because people make separation itself the goal. -------------------- Sure you do. As long as the separation is voluntary on both sides, there is no possible threat to freedom. ---------------------- You really don't grasp how that invariably sets societies up for racial or religious civil wars! Steve |
#502
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School Choice (was How Children REALLY React To Control)
abacus wrote:
Banty wrote in message ... In article , Nathan A. Barclay says... I hope you write your book. You're quite the poster child for the anti-democratic undercurrents and motivations of the movement for vouchers. The desire to segregate in public life. The desire to convert the religion of others. I really think your wrong about his motivations and judging him according to your memories and your own stereotypes. Personally, while I'm not thrilled with the idea of segregation in public life, I'm not so certain it's the evil you think it is either. My recollection is that Malcolm X was a big proponent of segregation. --------------- He was a racist too, however, his racism arose as a reaction to racism against blacks by whites. He simply turned the tables. There have also been some very successful schools set up specifically for black male adolescents, so it's not just white supremacists. --------------- Again, that is as a remedy to the effects of racism, not in service to racism. It's just that they give the concept a bad reputation. If, indeed, everybody involved prefers to be segregated, I'm not so sure the government is justified in preventing it. ---------------------------------- Sure it is, it causes inevitable strife over time, but we permit it in private, and not in public hiring, accomodations, education, or other public functions. And while Mr. Barclay may desire to spread the word of his religion to those willing to listen, I don't get the impression he is out to force others to listen. I suspect he just thinks that parents who want their child educated in an environment supportive of their religion (i.e. start the day with a prayer, bible verses posted on the wall, celebrate religious holidays, etc.) should not be forced to choose between either not doing so or having to pay the price of foregoing all tax-support for their child's education. At least, that's my opinion. --------------------- I'd love to argue with him about religion, I think he's terffied of starting THAT up with me! He KNOWS deep inside what I'd say, and that it would be all of his buried doubts and knowing that he has no reason for the **** he believes. My test case for thought experiments on the issue is an Amish community that's near where I live. They, or more typically their forebearers, settled together so that they could build a life for themselves separate from the rest of the population, creating a community dedicated to living in concert with their religious beliefs. Why should their community be denied tax-support for their children's education or forced to conform to the current policy of no religious observances in the school? ------------------------ No authority-led religious observances. To protect the public and our children from State sponsored religious proselytizing of a captive audience and absconding with public funding by way of doing so. Taking their tax money and then forcing them to make that choice sure seems like the government is restricting their religious freedom to me. ---------------------------- Nope. Their hobby is living 200 years ago, not ours. The State still has an obligation to educate their kids and NOT proselytize them! And they have an obligation to pay their taxes, period! Steve |
#503
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School Choice (was How Children REALLY React To Control)
abacus wrote:
Banty wrote in message ... In article , Nathan A. Barclay says... I hope you write your book. You're quite the poster child for the anti-democratic undercurrents and motivations of the movement for vouchers. The desire to segregate in public life. The desire to convert the religion of others. I really think your wrong about his motivations and judging him according to your memories and your own stereotypes. Personally, while I'm not thrilled with the idea of segregation in public life, I'm not so certain it's the evil you think it is either. My recollection is that Malcolm X was a big proponent of segregation. --------------- He was a racist too, however, his racism arose as a reaction to racism against blacks by whites. He simply turned the tables. There have also been some very successful schools set up specifically for black male adolescents, so it's not just white supremacists. --------------- Again, that is as a remedy to the effects of racism, not in service to racism. It's just that they give the concept a bad reputation. If, indeed, everybody involved prefers to be segregated, I'm not so sure the government is justified in preventing it. ---------------------------------- Sure it is, it causes inevitable strife over time, but we permit it in private, and not in public hiring, accomodations, education, or other public functions. And while Mr. Barclay may desire to spread the word of his religion to those willing to listen, I don't get the impression he is out to force others to listen. I suspect he just thinks that parents who want their child educated in an environment supportive of their religion (i.e. start the day with a prayer, bible verses posted on the wall, celebrate religious holidays, etc.) should not be forced to choose between either not doing so or having to pay the price of foregoing all tax-support for their child's education. At least, that's my opinion. --------------------- I'd love to argue with him about religion, I think he's terffied of starting THAT up with me! He KNOWS deep inside what I'd say, and that it would be all of his buried doubts and knowing that he has no reason for the **** he believes. My test case for thought experiments on the issue is an Amish community that's near where I live. They, or more typically their forebearers, settled together so that they could build a life for themselves separate from the rest of the population, creating a community dedicated to living in concert with their religious beliefs. Why should their community be denied tax-support for their children's education or forced to conform to the current policy of no religious observances in the school? ------------------------ No authority-led religious observances. To protect the public and our children from State sponsored religious proselytizing of a captive audience and absconding with public funding by way of doing so. Taking their tax money and then forcing them to make that choice sure seems like the government is restricting their religious freedom to me. ---------------------------- Nope. Their hobby is living 200 years ago, not ours. The State still has an obligation to educate their kids and NOT proselytize them! And they have an obligation to pay their taxes, period! Steve |
#504
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School Choice (was How Children REALLY React To Control)
abacus wrote:
The problem, at least as I see it and continuing with your analogy here, would be like a sizeable (but minority) group of people complaining that the bus doesn't provide transportation to where they want to go. They then wish to either have the public transportation system - which they help fund through their tax dollars - either accomodate their needs by adding their destination to the route or providing vouchers to help defray the costs of their going where they need to go. ---------------- The State bus system is as large as the Democracy is willing to pay for at any given time, and it goes where the Majority has approved. You don't have the right to expect the State to give you cab fare just because the bus doesn't go where you wanted it to go. And you STILL have to pay your taxes. Steve |
#505
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School Choice (was How Children REALLY React To Control)
abacus wrote:
The problem, at least as I see it and continuing with your analogy here, would be like a sizeable (but minority) group of people complaining that the bus doesn't provide transportation to where they want to go. They then wish to either have the public transportation system - which they help fund through their tax dollars - either accomodate their needs by adding their destination to the route or providing vouchers to help defray the costs of their going where they need to go. ---------------- The State bus system is as large as the Democracy is willing to pay for at any given time, and it goes where the Majority has approved. You don't have the right to expect the State to give you cab fare just because the bus doesn't go where you wanted it to go. And you STILL have to pay your taxes. Steve |
#506
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School Choice (was How Children REALLY React To Control)
Circe wrote:
It isn't analogous at all, though. The Constitution doesn't prohibit the government from putting a bus stop closer to your house; it *does* prohibit the government from providing religious instruction. ---------------- Nobody said his house, how about to his church up a two mile private road on his property!? This is how far they want us to go out of our way to pay them back their taxes. Asinine. Steve |
#507
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School Choice (was How Children REALLY React To Control)
Circe wrote:
It isn't analogous at all, though. The Constitution doesn't prohibit the government from putting a bus stop closer to your house; it *does* prohibit the government from providing religious instruction. ---------------- Nobody said his house, how about to his church up a two mile private road on his property!? This is how far they want us to go out of our way to pay them back their taxes. Asinine. Steve |
#508
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School Choice (was How Children REALLY React To Control)
abacus wrote:
My point is only that which right (freedom of association or freedom from discrimination) should trump the other in what situations has changed considerably over the past 20 years, 50 years, 100 years, etc. I expect it will continue to do so. So I contemplate where *I* think it should be. ----------------------- Not in public function/accomodation, and that's what this is. Steve |
#509
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School Choice (was How Children REALLY React To Control)
abacus wrote:
My point is only that which right (freedom of association or freedom from discrimination) should trump the other in what situations has changed considerably over the past 20 years, 50 years, 100 years, etc. I expect it will continue to do so. So I contemplate where *I* think it should be. ----------------------- Not in public function/accomodation, and that's what this is. Steve |
#510
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School Choice (was How Children REALLY React To Control)
Nathan A. Barclay wrote:
"Donna Metler" wrote in message ... I have a question: Why do parents send their children to school? My point of view is that the primary reason to send children to school is to give them an education. I want my child to learn materials appropriate to his age and maturity in areas like Mathematics, English, Foreign Language, History and Government (US and International), Sciences, and Arts. I don't see that religion is relevant to much of this. In areas where it is (such as world history, art, and music) it would be imperative that the basic concepts and beliefs of any religon related to the subject at hand be studied-but not practiced. Is the curriculum really so much different in a religious school? In the religious school I went to, there were four main differences. 1) Religion was viewed as an important academic subject on par with the others. 2) We had a "chapel" service every day with a brief devotional followed sometimes by a longer religious talk and sometimes by some kind of entertainment. 3) Religion was part of the "background noise" - public prayer before lunch and sometimes at the beginning of the day, religious content in some of the wall decorations, occasional inclusion of religious perspectives in connection with other subjects, and so forth - and also played a central role in discussion of moral issues. 4) The students were mostly people from the same religious background, which meant that peer pressure to act in ways contrary to my beliefs and values was relatively limited. So while the academics were very similar to what they would have been in a public school (aside from the fact that Bible classes displaced time that could have been used for a "study hall" or for taking some other class as an elective), the background environment was far more different. The Bible classes could, at least in theory, have been replaced some other way if I'd attended a public school, albeit not as effectively and efficiently. The background environment could not possibly have been replaced. Nathan ------------ Not for the purposes of brainwashing, but then I'll bet you can't possibly defend your twisted little religion logically, what do you bet, hmmm? Steve |
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