school fundraisers

Beliavsky wrote:
On Nov 27, 4:40 pm, Barbara wrote:

(i) Most teachers are *not* math and science teachers; the high
salaries in those fields are therefore not necessarily available to
them. It may well be that highly qualified math and science teachers
should be entitled to higher salaries than, say, social studies
teachers, if such higher salaries are needed to attract good people.
Then again, I would also like to see a system in which particularly
*good* teachers could be financially rewarded for their work, at a
level beyond the hack teacher who is just putting in his time. That's
just not going to happen.

It's not going to happen as long as teachers are unionized government
employees. It could happen if schools were privately run, as I think
they should be. There was recently an amusing article in the Wall
Street Journal about some private tutors in Hong Kong making more than
$1 million a year. I personally know of two MIT graduates about my age
working for test preparation companies in the U.S., but I don't know
of any teaching in the public schools.
[snip]

Hong Kong parents are often desperate to help their children succeed
in this city's pressure-cooker public-examination system, which
determines students' college-worthiness. That explains why many are
willing to pay handsomely for extracurricular help. Mr. Eng and others
like him have made a lucrative business out of tapping that demand.
They use flashy, aggressive marketing tactics that have transformed
them into scholastic pop stars -- "tutor gods," as they're known in
Cantonese.
[snip]

Before any teachers or "tutor gods" can earn such high amounts, you have
to have a system of high-stakes public exams. The USA does not have
that kind of system - and I don't think Americans would want that kind
of system. So the fact that a *few* Hong Kong tutors can earn massive
salaries is irrelevant when it comes down to deciding whether teachers
in Texas can earn a reasonable salary.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

Penny Gaines wrote:

Before any teachers or "tutor gods" can earn such high amounts, you have
to have a system of high-stakes public exams. The USA does not have
that kind of system

???! Not quite the same system as elsewhere, but there are
plenty of high-stakes exams around, and tutoring and test-prep is
a multi-billion dollar industry.

- and I don't think Americans would want that kind
of system.

Again, ???! ;-) Apparently we have indeed asked to
move in that direction, with mandated high stakes testing
in primary and secondary education, which has spurred huge
gains in the tutoring and test-prep industries.

So the fact that a *few* Hong Kong tutors can earn massive
salaries is irrelevant when it comes down to deciding whether teachers
in Texas can earn a reasonable salary.

I agree that there's little connection between this
sort of thing and teacher salaries, but don't agree with you
that the US doesn't have people earning their fortunes in
test prep or tutoring. I was shocked to find out what tutors
are earning around here, and there are quite a few kids in
my children's classes starting programs to prepare them for
various tests by 10 years old or earlier. It's not necessarily
*everywhere*, but it exists and is spreading rapidly.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:16:04 -0500, Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Penny Gaines wrote:

Before any teachers or "tutor gods" can earn such high amounts, you have
to have a system of high-stakes public exams. The USA does not have
that kind of system

???! Not quite the same system as elsewhere, but there are
plenty of high-stakes exams around, and tutoring and test-prep is
a multi-billion dollar industry.

I don't think it is as high stakes as in some other countries. The reason
the tests are so high stakes in some countries, failure in the tests means
a life doomed to poverty and no possibility of advancing the education,
whether it is high school or college.

Failure in US schools may mean going to community college. 4-year colleges
is not ruled out, but the route mey be different. A college education may
mean a lower chance of landing in poverty, but lack of a degree does not
doom a person to poverty. In fact, it is possible to not go to college and
make more than someone with a degree -- impossible in some of those high
stakes countries.

On Nov 28, 2:26 pm, Penny Gaines wrote:
Beliavsky wrote:
On Nov 27, 4:40 pm, Barbara wrote:

(i) Most teachers are *not* math and science teachers; the high
salaries in those fields are therefore not necessarily available to
them. It may well be that highly qualified math and science teachers
should be entitled to higher salaries than, say, social studies
teachers, if such higher salaries are needed to attract good people.
Then again, I would also like to see a system in which particularly
*good* teachers could be financially rewarded for their work, at a
level beyond the hack teacher who is just putting in his time. That's
just not going to happen.

It's not going to happen as long as teachers are unionized government
employees. It could happen if schools were privately run, as I think
they should be. There was recently an amusing article in the Wall
Street Journal about some private tutors in Hong Kong making more than
$1 million a year. I personally know of two MIT graduates about my age
working for test preparation companies in the U.S., but I don't know
of any teaching in the public schools.
[snip]

Hong Kong parents are often desperate to help their children succeed
in this city's pressure-cooker public-examination system, which
determines students' college-worthiness. That explains why many are
willing to pay handsomely for extracurricular help. Mr. Eng and others
like him have made a lucrative business out of tapping that demand.
They use flashy, aggressive marketing tactics that have transformed
them into scholastic pop stars -- "tutor gods," as they're known in
Cantonese.

[snip]

Before any teachers or "tutor gods" can earn such high amounts, you have
to have a system of high-stakes public exams. The USA does not have
that kind of system - and I don't think Americans would want that kind
of system. So the fact that a *few* Hong Kong tutors can earn massive
salaries is irrelevant when it comes down to deciding whether teachers
in Texas can earn a reasonable salary.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

I think that the overarching constraint is that for many places in the
US, teacher salaries are more closely tied to local (not state, nor
federal) taxes, as local taxes are (becoming) the primary source of
revenue -- hence, a town that does not generally support education can
perpetuate that unhappy situation by not increasing its tax rate to
encourage teachers to remain. Or perhaps it's a town that supports
education (funded privately via parents) but does not support a public
education for other children.

Caledonia

toypup wrote:
On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:16:04 -0500, Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Penny Gaines wrote:

Before any teachers or "tutor gods" can earn such high amounts, you have
to have a system of high-stakes public exams. The USA does not have
that kind of system
???! Not quite the same system as elsewhere, but there are
plenty of high-stakes exams around, and tutoring and test-prep is
a multi-billion dollar industry.

I don't think it is as high stakes as in some other countries. The reason
the tests are so high stakes in some countries, failure in the tests means
a life doomed to poverty and no possibility of advancing the education,
whether it is high school or college.

Agreed it's not quite as high stakes, but it's getting
closer all the time.

Failure in US schools may mean going to community college.

Or worse. If you don't pass state tests, you don't
get a high school diploma in at least some states (maybe most
states by now?).

4-year colleges
is not ruled out, but the route mey be different. A college education may
mean a lower chance of landing in poverty, but lack of a degree does not
doom a person to poverty. In fact, it is possible to not go to college and
make more than someone with a degree -- impossible in some of those high
stakes countries.

Agreed. However, as I said, it's certainly the case that
you can find tutors, academic support classes, test prep courses,
etc. all over the place and a whole lot of people are paying a lot
of money for them. If you want to hire a tutor around here, you're
looking at $50+/hour for someone with any credentials, unless you
can work a deal with a friend. And the tutors are working about
as many hours as they're willing to work.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:29:45 -0500, Ericka Kammerer wrote:

toypup wrote:
On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:16:04 -0500, Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Penny Gaines wrote:

Before any teachers or "tutor gods" can earn such high amounts, you have
to have a system of high-stakes public exams. The USA does not have
that kind of system
???! Not quite the same system as elsewhere, but there are
plenty of high-stakes exams around, and tutoring and test-prep is
a multi-billion dollar industry.

I don't think it is as high stakes as in some other countries. The reason
the tests are so high stakes in some countries, failure in the tests means
a life doomed to poverty and no possibility of advancing the education,
whether it is high school or college.

Agreed it's not quite as high stakes, but it's getting
closer all the time.

Failure in US schools may mean going to community college.

Or worse. If you don't pass state tests, you don't
get a high school diploma in at least some states (maybe most
states by now?).

I read that in the paper regarding not graduating and not going to college
because of the test. Well, it was mentioned that those students can still
go on to get a GED and the community colleges still accept them. From
there, they can still go to a 4-year college, unlike countries where it is
high stakes, where the test will doom you and you have no route to a better
life.


4-year colleges
is not ruled out, but the route mey be different. A college education may
mean a lower chance of landing in poverty, but lack of a degree does not
doom a person to poverty. In fact, it is possible to not go to college and
make more than someone with a degree -- impossible in some of those high
stakes countries.

Agreed. However, as I said, it's certainly the case that
you can find tutors, academic support classes, test prep courses,
etc. all over the place and a whole lot of people are paying a lot
of money for them. If you want to hire a tutor around here, you're
looking at $50+/hour for someone with any credentials, unless you
can work a deal with a friend. And the tutors are working about
as many hours as they're willing to work.

I am not disputing that you can find tutors who charge a lot of money in
the USA. I am disputing that it is as high stakes here as countries where
it really is high stakes.

toypup wrote:
On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:29:45 -0500, Ericka Kammerer wrote:

toypup wrote:

Failure in US schools may mean going to community college.
Or worse. If you don't pass state tests, you don't
get a high school diploma in at least some states (maybe most
states by now?).

I read that in the paper regarding not graduating and not going to college
because of the test. Well, it was mentioned that those students can still
go on to get a GED and the community colleges still accept them. From
there, they can still go to a 4-year college, unlike countries where it is
high stakes, where the test will doom you and you have no route to a better
life.

Yes, it is still possible to go that route, but many
don't (and obviously those who can't pass the state exams to get
a high school diploma are at somewhat of a disadvantage passing
the GED unless they turn over a new leaf and put some serious
effort in!). I agree that it is not as "do or die" as it is
some places, but I think that we are headed more and more in
that direction.
Also, while the downsides may not be as low, they
often *feel* that way to those who'd be the ones hiring the
high-powered tutors to begin with. There are groups in my
area where they *perceive* the stakes to be that high, and
therefore they shell out extraordinary amounts of money to
ensure that their children get into the programs they feel
are desirable. While the reality may be that their kids'
lives aren't over if they don't get into the most prestigious
programs, that's not *their* reality, and their reality is
what determines how they act.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:13:55 -0500, Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Also, while the downsides may not be as low, they
often *feel* that way to those who'd be the ones hiring the
high-powered tutors to begin with. There are groups in my
area where they *perceive* the stakes to be that high, and
therefore they shell out extraordinary amounts of money to
ensure that their children get into the programs they feel
are desirable. While the reality may be that their kids'
lives aren't over if they don't get into the most prestigious
programs, that's not *their* reality, and their reality is
what determines how they act.

I think that's really the problem. Most people who hire the high powered
tutors are the ones who want their kids to go to the exclusive private
schools and the ivy league colleges. They may live in an area where that
is the norm. That's hardly the arena most kids are in, though.

I also agree that it is more high stakes now than it was when farming was a
lifestyle. However, the pressure kids live under in some countries is
enourmous and is nothing compared to what the average American kid has to
deal with.

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..

Agreed. However, as I said, it's certainly the case that
you can find tutors, academic support classes, test prep courses,
etc. all over the place and a whole lot of people are paying a lot
of money for them. If you want to hire a tutor around here, you're
looking at $50+/hour for someone with any credentials, unless you
can work a deal with a friend. And the tutors are working about
as many hours as they're willing to work.

And if you go to almost any of the established test prep/tutoring
businesses, that $50/hr tutor will make maybe
$12.00/hr.

Just because people pay a lot of money for a test prep class doesn't mean
the person teaching the class sees the money.

Donna Metler wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..

Agreed. However, as I said, it's certainly the case that
you can find tutors, academic support classes, test prep courses,
etc. all over the place and a whole lot of people are paying a lot
of money for them. If you want to hire a tutor around here, you're
looking at $50+/hour for someone with any credentials, unless you
can work a deal with a friend. And the tutors are working about
as many hours as they're willing to work.

And if you go to almost any of the established test prep/tutoring
businesses, that $50/hr tutor will make maybe
$12.00/hr.

Just because people pay a lot of money for a test prep class doesn't mean
the person teaching the class sees the money.

I understand that. I was talking more about the
individual tutors around here. There are organizations for
tutors here that are sort of like a clearinghouse for tutors.
You call them and tell them what you want, and they hook you
up with a few people who meet your criteria. You interview,
decide whom you want, and pay the individual directly. They
seem to start out around $50/hour and go up from there.

Best wishes,
Ericka