28 month old son's diet

I totally understand what you're saying, but I find it hard
to translate into practice personally.

It just sort of seems to me that kids are smart enough to
know when you're giving them food they don't like
because that's what's in the cupboard and there just
isn't anything else, as opposed to giving them food
they don't like because it suits your own agenda.
The fact is, my child *does* live in a country of
wretched excess (and more to the point, a household
of wretched excess, at least where food is concerned)
and even at two he's well aware that we could easily
go over to the shelf and pull down the raisin bran
if we were willing to do so. We could never buy more
raisin brain and pretend we had to make do on rice
and beans, but it'd be a pretense, and again, I don't
think our child would take too long to figure that out,
unless we changed our lifestyles completely.

I'm not necessarily arguing that people should feed
their toddlers whatever the toddlers want, but it's
hard to translate values from one culture to another
without the underlying reality. The fact is, if my husband
and I go to a dinner where the food turns out to be
not to our liking, we don't eat it because we have to,
we push it politely around our plates and go home and
eat, well, raisin bran. It seems somewhat hypocritical
to me to then demand more of my child than that, and
although I know that childrearing may require that I
seem to stand firm on values I don't necessarily live
up to myself, it does make it harder to hold the line
with a screaming toddler when you don't even
have the complete courage of your convictions.

Beth

wrote in message
oups.com...
I totally understand what you're saying, but I find it hard
to translate into practice personally.

It just sort of seems to me that kids are smart enough to
know when you're giving them food they don't like
because that's what's in the cupboard and there just
isn't anything else, as opposed to giving them food
they don't like because it suits your own agenda.


It rather depends what the agenda is. What is wrong with the agenda of
minimizing the work for mom and dad of getting the food on the table? Or
living frugally by minimizing waste? Or good eating habits? Certainly my son
won't choose a fruit or vegetable over an empty food. Or easing the
transition for the inforseen day when we do not have the luxury we have
today. This is teaching.


The fact is, my child *does* live in a country of
wretched excess (and more to the point, a household
of wretched excess, at least where food is concerned)
and even at two he's well aware that we could easily
go over to the shelf and pull down the raisin bran
if we were willing to do so. We could never buy more
raisin brain and pretend we had to make do on rice
and beans, but it'd be a pretense, and again, I don't
think our child would take too long to figure that out,
unless we changed our lifestyles completely.


That's not the point. I am by no means a crazy food nut. I like to enjoy my
meals. I like my children to enjoy their meals. It is one of the priorities
among several that are present in a household.

I'm not necessarily arguing that people should feed
their toddlers whatever the toddlers want, but it's
hard to translate values from one culture to another
without the underlying reality.

I don't understand this. This culture used to value frugality, of which
waste not want not is a common expression. Instead now we value pumping food
our children do not need into them. If a child is not hungry enough to eat
something reasonable that is put in front of them, I cannot think of a
motivation to put something *else* in front of them. It is wasteful.


The fact is, if my husband
and I go to a dinner where the food turns out to be
not to our liking, we don't eat it because we have to,
we push it politely around our plates and go home and
eat, well, raisin bran. It seems somewhat hypocritical
to me to then demand more of my child than that,


Absolutely. To ask your child to do what you do not do is hypocritical.
Tonight we are having veggie beef soup, which I do not like at all but which
is a good way to use up veggies before they go south. DH like it well
enough. DD likes... everything she is a walking garbage disposal. It is
likely that DS and I will eat very little.

and
although I know that childrearing may require that I
seem to stand firm on values I don't necessarily live
up to myself,


When does it do that? That is one of my first yard sticks. Is this important
enough for me to model it properly? If not, it is not valuable enough to
insist from my kids.

it does make it harder to hold the line
with a screaming toddler when you don't even
have the complete courage of your convictions.


Certainly. If you do not agree with my attitudes, it would be complete
foolhardiness to attempt to do it. Your kids would think you were a sham.
Though why would the toddler be screaming?

Beth

Stephanie Stowe wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
I totally understand what you're saying, but I find it hard
to translate into practice personally.

It just sort of seems to me that kids are smart enough to
know when you're giving them food they don't like
because that's what's in the cupboard and there just
isn't anything else, as opposed to giving them food
they don't like because it suits your own agenda.


It rather depends what the agenda is. What is wrong with the agenda
of
minimizing the work for mom and dad of getting the food on the table?
Or
living frugally by minimizing waste? Or good eating habits? Certainly
my son
won't choose a fruit or vegetable over an empty food. Or easing the
transition for the inforseen day when we do not have the luxury we
have
today. This is teaching.

The only one of these potential goals I'm really in tune with is
minimizing waste.

I'm okay with minimizing work for me getting food on the table, but
most of the things my toddler would rather eat require only a
few seconds of prep (cold cereal being the main one). I'm somewhat
dubious of the value of instilling good eating habits by giving a
child food he strongly dislikes; I know an awful lot of adults who
now exercise their adult freedom to eat only starch and meat who
were forced to eat other things as kids. My child happily chooses
fruit and vegetables at some occasions, but not others, so I'm
not really afraid he's going to grow up a profoundly picky eater
if left alone.

I'm not necessarily arguing that people should feed
their toddlers whatever the toddlers want, but it's
hard to translate values from one culture to another
without the underlying reality.

I don't understand this. This culture used to value frugality, of
which
waste not want not is a common expression. Instead now we value
pumping food
our children do not need into them. If a child is not hungry enough
to eat
something reasonable that is put in front of them, I cannot think of
a
motivation to put something *else* in front of them. It is wasteful.

Again, though, I think this only makes sense if frugality is an
main value of your household. It sounds like to you this is a
major value, and I think kids can sense that and will be more
compliant if the value being enforced is a core value of the family.
If it's a big priority that every scrap of food gets used up by
someone, then wasting some of that is a problem. If some leftovers
are going to get tossed anyway, then insisting that the child not
add a few mouthfuls to that waste is harder.

Absolutely. To ask your child to do what you do not do is
hypocritical.
Tonight we are having veggie beef soup, which I do not like at all
but which
is a good way to use up veggies before they go south. DH like it well
enough. DD likes... everything she is a walking garbage disposal. It
is
likely that DS and I will eat very little.

So on nights when there's a meal you dislike, you go to bed hungry?
I'm not doubting you, just curious. I know very few adults who would
act this way with more appealing food in the house, so if that's how
you act you are definitely living by your principles.

and
although I know that childrearing may require that I
seem to stand firm on values I don't necessarily live
up to myself,


When does it do that? That is one of my first yard sticks. Is this
important
enough for me to model it properly? If not, it is not valuable enough
to
insist from my kids.

Okay, then, Pop Tarts for all in my household. :-)

Seriously, I do model willingness to try new foods and enthusiasm
for vegetables, so all is not completely lost for my child. What
I don't model is willingness to choke down parts of a dinner I
don't like in situations where I have other choices. I can model
politeness in refusing food cooked for me that I won't eat, and
willingness to eat what I hate when I have to, but when I don't I just
don't.

Certainly. If you do not agree with my attitudes, it would be
complete
foolhardiness to attempt to do it. Your kids would think you were a
sham.
Though why would the toddler be screaming?

Well, in our house, it's because he's hungry, and all he's being
offered is food he doesn't like. ('Screaming' isn't really accurate,
'whining' would be closer.)

Beth

905guy wrote:
Thanks everyone for all the responses. It's been a battle here in
our home
between my wife and I on how we should address this. I tend to let
him eat
what he wants and give him all the milk he wants. My wife on the
other hand
wants him to eat what is put out for him during lunch and dinner.
When we
do the latter we end up with a rather angry 28 month toddler and two
feuding
parents.

Funny how a 220 lb euro male like myself is the softie in the family.


You've already been given excellent advice on the picky eating issue; I
agree with the others that you might want to cut down on the milk, but
otherwise I'm with you that a child should eat what he wants, provided
it's healthy and not junk food.

I just wanted to stress that you have a potentially larger issue here,
and that's the fact you and your wife are not on the same page and are
fighting it out in front of the child. It's extremely important to be
united when it comes to childrearing issues like this. Probably more
important than what you actually decide upon doing (her way vs your
way, or ideally a compromise).

I think the two of you need to find a quiet time to hash this out
together, reach a compromise on the issue you can both abide by, and
then agree to carry it out whatever rules you decide on from now on.
The two of you working in concert and as a team on this is so much more
important that what your picky eater does and doesn't eat, IMO.

I say this from someone who is divorced and shares custody. My ex and I
always disagreed on this issue when it came to our picky eater, now 10.
He was raised in a "clean plate" family; I took a more laid-back
approach. We've made some small strides in recent years trying to
compromise on our approaches, but we're still miles apart.

At our house today the rule is that no one will talk about who's eating
what or not eating what; mealtimes are meant to be soothing and
peaceful and I will not stand for a meal to be ruined by any
scene-making (and that includes not just DD10 but also her sister,
myself, and any well-intentioned grandparents who can't stand to see
her not eating). If DD10 doesn't like what is served, she has the
option of a bowl of cereal or a bagel and milk that she can get for
herself. If she's not hungry, she doesn't have to eat. All I ask is no
pouty faces and that she remember to politely say, "no thank you."

At his house they battle constantly and every meal dissolves into a big
scene with him spoon feeding her or trying to make deals "one more bite
and then you can watch a video." She comes back to my house and says
she is stuffed and can't eat another thing. I believe her because there
is no issue with her weight at all, if anything, she's slightly
overweight. I think she knows what her body needs intuitively; she is
forced to overeat at her dad's house, so when she comes to my house, I
don't make an issue if she happens to live on air for the week.

The saddest part for me is that my DD10 takes absolutely no joy in
eating anymore. The emotions attached with eating have soured any
pleasure for her. I am doing my best to instill positive family
mealtime experience apart from food - she is learning at least that
mealtimes can be enjoyable for the dinner conversation and
togetherness, if not for the food that's served.

jen

wrote:


Seriously, I do model willingness to try new foods and enthusiasm
for vegetables, so all is not completely lost for my child. What
I don't model is willingness to choke down parts of a dinner I
don't like in situations where I have other choices. I can model
politeness in refusing food cooked for me that I won't eat, and
willingness to eat what I hate when I have to, but when I don't I just
don't.

Certainly. If you do not agree with my attitudes, it would be
complete foolhardiness to attempt to do it. Your kids would think
you were a sham. Though why would the toddler be screaming?

Well, in our house, it's because he's hungry, and all he's being
offered is food he doesn't like. ('Screaming' isn't really accurate,
'whining' would be closer.)

It can be a difficult issue for those of us with children who start off life
as picky eaters. Somewhere there has to be a happy place between being a
food nazi and not worrying at all what they eat. I don't think we've found
it yet and we've run out of children to experiment on! We fretted about how
little our eldest son ate (and the lack of variety) when he was little and I
would make yoghurt, fruit and raw egg smoothies to get protein into him.
Eventually he began eating a wide variety of food and at 14 he hoovers down
vast quantities of everything. Certainly by the time he and our daughter
were 6 or 7 they weren't fussy eaters at all.

With our youngest we went to almost the opposite extreme and have let him
guide his own food preferences - within healthy limits, of course. That is,
if we let him choose coca cola, corn chips and fries that's what he'd do but
he eats a wide variety of fruit, milk products, the traditional family
hidden-egg smoothie, toast and... that's about it, apart from bread and a
few cashew nuts. No meat unless it's hidden in some way. At a month shy of 4
we've recently managed to introduce him to rice and vegetables in a risotto
but he's been resisting that.

There's been a fair amont of whining and a crumpled face with spurting tears
the first couple of times when he realised that was all the dinner he was
getting. So, we'll persevere now but do it slowly and make sure that he's
faced with new (unpalatable!) meals only a couple of times a week.

Part of the problem/issue is that our son still drinks up to a litre of milk
each day which would take the edge off most people's appetite. Since he's
always been disgustingly healthy and throws off colds quickly we've figured
there was nothing much broken about his diet to fix. However, at some point
it becomes very/too inconvenient to have a child that won't eat what
everyone else is eating so ya just have to bite that bullet...and suffer
along with him.

Mind you, your little lad is *much* younger than mine... If it doesn't
feel worth the aggravation to everyone concerned now I reckon you have
plenty of time to ease into widening your son's diet.

Tai

wrote:

The saddest part for me is that my DD10 takes absolutely no joy in
eating anymore. The emotions attached with eating have soured any
pleasure for her. I am doing my best to instill positive family
mealtime experience apart from food - she is learning at least that
mealtimes can be enjoyable for the dinner conversation and
togetherness, if not for the food that's served.

That's a real pity, Jen, but I'm sure your way will prevail in the end.

A friend of my daughter's (12) is a picky eater and her father has done what
your ex did, that is turn every meal time into a battle. However, she has
always been very thin, slightly anaemic and has asthma so there were
additional concerns going on there. Some children seem to want to drink most
of their food and it always seemed easier to me to fortify their drinks and
let them snack on fresh fruit and bread etc. when they wanted something
extra.

Picky, slow eaters and grazers can be disadvantaged in the early school
years because the others gobble everything up in their lunch boxes and race
outside to play while the fussy kids are often made to sit there until they
are seen to eat enough to fuel their afternoons.

Tai

In article ,
(Catherine Woodgold) wrote:

Well, if he's going to have only one food all day,
then milk is one of the very best choices for that food!

But if I have worked the conversion out properly, 48 oz is 1.4 litres! That
is a LOT of milk for a little kid (and I am assuming it's cow's milk). My
guess is that he is filling up on milk rather than other foods. As you say,
this is not a nutritional problem, but a developing the taste buds problem.

I would want to see what the child is getting for morning and afternoon tea.
My suspicion is that he needs more food at these times, and less at lunch and
dinner (someone here or on mkb pointed out a while ago that children seem to
take in most of their food int eh first half of the day, and IME that is
true). Three big meals with long gaps in between isn't easy for littlies to
manage (many adults like morning and afternoon tea as well!), and this could
also be why he's drinking so much milk.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Life is like a cigarette -- smoke it to the butt." -- Harvie Krumpet

) writes:
It just sort of seems to me that kids are smart enough to
know when you're giving them food they don't like
because that's what's in the cupboard and there just
isn't anything else, as opposed to giving them food
they don't like because it suits your own agenda.

Well said!

If you have a good reason for restricting food -- for
example, shortage of money, or health concerns -- then
it's easy to just tell the toddler that. The importance
comes through in your tone of voice and actions, and the
child learns to accept it (with some difficulty perhaps,
but nevertheless.)

But if you don't have much of any reason for the restrictions,
of if the reason sounds flimsy even to you or is something
along the lines of "because I want you to learn to do whatever I say,"
then the child isn't going to respond very well to that.
Think about how you would feel if you were the child.

Raisin bran seems to me to be a reasonably healthy food.
--
Cathy

"Stephanie Stowe" ) writes:
It rather depends what the agenda is. What is wrong with the agenda of
minimizing the work for mom and dad of getting the food on the table? Or
living frugally by minimizing waste?

Nothing wrong with those! I believe I have an instinctive
horror of wasting food, and I don't mind trying to teach others
to avoid wasting too.

Or good eating habits?

That will mean different things to different people,
depending on their physical needs, beliefs and values.

Certainly my son
won't choose a fruit or vegetable over an empty food.

I think it makes sense to restrict cookies and stuff, unless
maybe the kids don't tend to eat them much.

Or easing the
transition for the inforseen day when we do not have the luxury we have
today. This is teaching.

I don't respond very well to somebody telling me
"I'm taking this away from you now just to get you
used to it, in case I have to take it away some day."
It makes me angry. It doesn't make much sense to me.
Maybe it depends on how it's presented. If the child
feels like a willing partner in a project, like
"let's see if we can go all day without eating,"
maybe the emotional reaction is very different.

I don't understand this. This culture used to value frugality, of which
waste not want not is a common expression. Instead now we value pumping food
our children do not need into them. If a child is not hungry enough to eat
something reasonable that is put in front of them, I cannot think of a
motivation to put something *else* in front of them. It is wasteful.

I don't understand. I don't see how it's wasteful
to give a child something to eat. If the child doesn't
want the first thing offered, someone else can eat it.
That isn't wasting it. Here's a motivation to put
something else in front of the child: to promote the
child's health. Examples: the child may be allergic
to the first food (without knowing it consciously).
The child may have a nutritional deficiency and be craving
only foods that satisfy the deficiency. The child may
have an aversion to a certain food
but may need to eat to avoid hypoglycaemia
symptoms over the next few hours (including whining and
stuff that are hard for parents to take). The child may
be experiencing digestive problems, possibly from an
incipient virus, and be unable to digest well certain
types of food.

Some people don't have the option of choosing which foods
to eat, due to lack of money or similar restrictions.
However, others do, and if one has the ability to do
something that promotes health and contributes to long
life, why not do it?

Tonight we are having veggie beef soup, which I do not like at all but which
is a good way to use up veggies before they go south. DH like it well
enough. DD likes... everything she is a walking garbage disposal. It is
likely that DS and I will eat very little.

That's one way to organize your eating. Eating little can have
advantages such as not gaining too much weight. That's fine, but
not everyone does it that way -- I certainly don't. I try hard
to avoid waste, but I don't find it necessary to eat things I
don't like. If nobody likes it, we don't buy it. If others like
it, I let them eat it. Maybe eating very little at a meal is
a lot harder for me than for you, due to hypoglycemia. Maybe your
method of doing things works fine for you but wouldn't work so
well in a family with multiple food allergies and hypoglycemia.
I don't see the motivation for not getting out the raisin bran. :-)

Practicing self-discipline is good, but I think there are enough
opportunities to do it in a way that actually does some good, without
having to manufacture situations for the sole purpose of
practicing self-discipline.
--
Cathy

Catherine Woodgold ) writes:
I don't understand. I don't see how it's wasteful
to give a child something to eat. If the child doesn't
want the first thing offered, someone else can eat it.
That isn't wasting it. Here's a motivation to put
something else in front of the child: to promote the
child's health. Examples: the child may be allergic
to the first food (without knowing it consciously).
The child may have a nutritional deficiency and be craving
only foods that satisfy the deficiency. The child may
have an aversion to a certain food
but may need to eat to avoid hypoglycaemia
symptoms over the next few hours (including whining and
stuff that are hard for parents to take). The child may
be experiencing digestive problems, possibly from an
incipient virus, and be unable to digest well certain
types of food.

Excuse me for extensively quoting myself, but I'd like
to add to this. I just read about the great mathematician
Kurt Godel who starved to death because he had a personality
disorder (mental illness/eccentricity/depression) and he
believed that the food being offered to him was poisoned.
That reminded me of some similar but much less drastic
situations among people I know, though for privacy
reasons I'm not discussing them specifically.

Just because someone refuses to eat something does NOT
necessarily mean they are not hungry or don't need food to
maintain health. The same goes with drinks. A person
can get into a drastic health situation because they're
offered only one type of drink which they're refusing for
one reason or another.

Our instincts, for good reasons, lead us to refuse foods
if we feel that they're contaminated or toxic or taste
bad. Sometimes this goes too far, and as with Kurt Godel,
the person can actually die. Or, the person can experience
mild or severe discomfort or poor health as a result.

Some vegetables are experienced by some people as having
strong tastes, even though they taste bland to others.
Many vegetables contain substances that are (mildly) toxic
to humans. Perhaps children dislike vegetables because
their growing bodies are more sensitive to harm from these
toxins. There's a good argument that morning sickness in
pregnant women is a protective strategy against such toxins.

Humans have an instinctive disgust of eating animal parts
except parts they're accustomed to eating. I forget at what
age we're more open to learning to eat new ones, but anyway,
there are good reasons for this instinct, it can be a very
powerful drive in some people, and just because
someone refuses a food doesn't necessarily mean they're not
starving to death.

Some people don't have the luxury of a choice of foods, but
if you do have that luxury, why not use it?
--
Cathy