Kindergarten - my child "going postal" every morning...

In article ,
Ann Porter wrote:
"Kevin Karplus" wrote in message
.. .

One that I was surprised they didn't do is to visit the sewage
treatment plant, which is just a few blocks from the school. I think
the first-grade teacher might do it this year as part of the "liquids
and solids" unit---it simply hadn't occured to her, though the plant
does do a lot of field trips for more distant schools.

Eww. I realize sewage treatment is very (very) important, but I prefer not
to think about it, let alone visit the facility where it's done.

I'm with you on that. As a college student, I went with a civil engineering
friend on a tour of the sewers of Paris. Not *my* idea of a fun tourist
attraction.

--Robyn

Noreen Cooper wrote:
gmbeasley wrote:

Second, although the thread was highjacked by people with a need to vent
against the movement to volunteer in class, none of the pro in-class
volunteers ever made the statement "you are a bad and uncaring person if
you do not help out as a classroom volunteer." This is a

You said this yourself. You said if someone did not participate in some
way (with the obvious bias on your part that volunteering in the classroom
was the preferred way to do it) you would judge them. You have repeated
this several times.

(sigh) I have no idea how these leaps of logic occur. I have said
several times on this thread I don't believe everyone *should* help out
in the classroom. Some people are simply not temperamentally well suited

Yes I know you have said that. But the argument is not SOLEY about
helping out in the classroom.

The problem is that people keep quoting Marjorie's response where she
says that someone who doesn't help the public schools is being a bad
citizen and the REAL problem post was yours where you said:

I do expect parents to contribute to (participate in) their children's
schools. Both because I think there's a moral obligation, and because I
think everyone should want to. (My ideal school for my kids would
require some participation by every parent---not so much to get the
benefits of that participation, as to keep out the families that don't
want to participate.)

Maybe you don't think that I "should" expect this. But, in fact, I do.

And then later:

: Noreen Cooper wrote:
:
:Now if you do absolutely nothing to help out your local schools, then I
:might judge you. ;-)

and later still:

Okay, guilty. Judgemental I'll be. I do believe parents who have
children in an ailing public school system are *obligated* to help out in
some way, no matter how small.

So defending yourself by saying that you don't think everyone should
be required to volunteer is not effective because what I object to
(and I suspect others object to) is the idea that a parent should do
something to help schools specifically (rather than elsewhere in the
community) or they are not good parents.

to be around a class of 20 small children, and I can respect that. We
all come with our strengths and differences.

It's been many years since you've been out of teaching. Things have
changed dramatically. Are you in contact with any teachers today, maybe
even someone teaching in an underfunded district? If not, I'd challenge

I'm in contact with my friends who are currently teaching. And
through my children with the schools where my grandchildren are
attending.

you to check out your local public school and see if the teachers believe
parents have zero obligation to help out the schools. In fact, if others
are so strong in their conviction, I double dare challenge you all to go
up to your child/ren's teacher tomorrow and tell him/her you have
absolutely zero obligation to help out the schools. And if you don't take
up the challenge, what do you make of your conviction then?

I think that's a very biased question - like "have you stopped beating
your wife". And for that reason I find it objectionable and your
challenge is equally objectionable.

grandma Rosalie

x-no-archive:yes

"Noreen Cooper" wrote in message
...
It's been many years since you've been out of teaching. Things have
changed dramatically. Are you in contact with any teachers today, maybe
even someone teaching in an underfunded district? If not, I'd challenge
you to check out your local public school and see if the teachers believe
parents have zero obligation to help out the schools. In fact, if others
are so strong in their conviction, I double dare challenge you all to go
up to your child/ren's teacher tomorrow and tell him/her you have
absolutely zero obligation to help out the schools. And if you don't take
up the challenge, what do you make of your conviction then?

Ah, but you see, this is *precisely* what I find objectionable. I don't
*care* whether the teachers think parents are obligated to do something for
the school or not. They can think it all they want, but if they run their
classrooms in the expectation that these obligations will be fulfilled and
they are not, there are going to be *more* problems than if the teachers had
not had any expectations to begin with. In many schools, the majority of
parents CANNOT do anything for the school--they have no time to volunteer
and no extra money to donate. To expect that such parents WILL do something
for the school is a bit like expecting to get Italian food at a Chinese
restaurant--a few Chinese restaurants might have spaghetti on the menu, but
most won't and all your expectations won't change that.

IMO, it is better for schools and teachers to begin with the assumption that
parents will not do one damn thing to help "the school" and to expect
instead that parents will do what they can to support their own child(ren)
in the educational process. As Penny has pointed out, that involves ensuring
your child is well-rested and fed before arriving at school, attending
parent-teacher conferences when scheduled, and supporting/assisting with
homework as needed. That's a *far* cry from doing something "for the
school", although I strongly believe that if all parents did these minimum
things for their children, the schools themselves would see huge benefits.

I understand and appreciate what you're saying about schools being
chronically underfunded these days. It's certainly true in many places.
Notwithstanding, I don't *buy* the idea that the solution is to expect
parents to make up the difference, whether through volunteering or reaching
into their pockets for actual cash. It may well be that volunteerism and
charitable donations are currently essential to keeping many schools afloat,
and I'm not suggesting that people who *choose* to help the schools in these
ways should stop doing so. It's just not a long-term solution. The long-term
solution is to improve school funding and fix the structural inequities that
allow some school districts to have twice as much funding as others.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [17mo] mom)
See us at http://photos.yahoo.com/guavaln

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"...we patiently sat by his door, waiting for it to open so he could tell us
all about who he had met" -- from _Uncle Andy's_ by James Warhola

Marion Baumgarten wrote:


: "My husband and I are prefectly happy with the amount of time and energy
: we
: spend at our children's schools. We have considered our resources and
: how to best allocate them for the good of our family and our community.
: 'Nuff said. "

: THAT'S what good citizenship is.

Fine. But you do *something* for the schools, as I remember. What set
some people off was my second post on this thread. I'd love for you to
review it.

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&...&threadm=RY63b.
2188%24m03.2184%40nntp-post.primus.ca&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dmisc.kids.moderated%26
ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26hl%3Den

So take everything I said in context, including the phrases:

"I know there are parents who can never physically help out in the
classroom but they help out in many other ways, either by participating in
school fundraisers or by helping the teacher after hours."

"We all do our part."

and...

Regarding *specifically* volunteering in the classroom, "If it's not
your bag, baby (Austin Powers accent), I'm not the one to tell you off
about it."

After saying all those the above, I was simply amazed on how I became the
target of the anti-classroom volunteer contingent. And what was it by
Dawn's count (20% of the entire thread later), I still don't have everyone
convinced of my true position on classroom volunteerism.

Instead, the focus was on:

"Now if you do absolutely nothing to help out your local schools, then I
might judge you. ;-)"

You may find this informative but I have never *once* said how I would
judge people. So all those judgement words in parent's heads which raised
their blood pressures, was coming from somewhere else. And I did get one
post rejected on this thread for attempting to figure it out. So I leave
it to you to figure it out for yourselves.

Noreen

x-no-archive: yes

Noreen wrote:

So I still maintain no one has ever said if you do not help out **IN THE
CLASSROOM** you are a bad citizen. There's a big difference. If you do
nothing to help out the schools, you are a bad citizen. If you don't
volunteer in the classroom, you are a bad citizen. Two different
statements completely.

Very true. Two statements. So what we have here is a paraphrased version of
"You are a bad and uncaring person if you do not do what you can to help public
schools."

That statement is ever so much better, eh? (Hint: Both statements make sweeping
judgments about people you know nothing about.)

Key point: You aren't the arbitrator or what makes folks a good citizen or a
bad one. I can't get my panties in a wad over what you think about how I or
other people do or do not express their civic duty. I do find it interesting,
though, that you express surprise that folks' would react negatively to you.
I've rarely, possibly never, heard the term "judgmental" used as a positive
attribute for anyone.

beeswing

In article ,
Noreen Cooper wrote:
Marion Baumgarten wrote:


: "My husband and I are prefectly happy with the amount of time and energy
: we
: spend at our children's schools. We have considered our resources and
: how to best allocate them for the good of our family and our community.
: 'Nuff said. "

: THAT'S what good citizenship is.

Fine. But you do *something* for the schools, as I remember.

The point is that if, after considering their family's resources and
how best to allocate them for the good of their family and their
community and, they decided not to do anything for their school, they'd
*still* be good citizens. It's the *consideration* that makes them
good citizens, not the fact that in a particular year that consideration
ended up with them doing "something" for the school as part of their
allocation of their resources.

As much as you are frustrated by people continuing to believe that you
are insisting that everyone volunteer *in the classroom*, others are
increasingly frustrated by your inability to concede that for many good
citizens, "doing something" to help their local (public?) school is not
necessarily part of the equation.

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

Rosalie B. wrote:

: The problem is that people keep quoting Marjorie's response where she
: says that someone who doesn't help the public schools is being a bad
: citizen and the REAL problem post was yours where you said:

:I do expect parents to contribute to (participate in) their children's
:schools. Both because I think there's a moral obligation, and because I
:think everyone should want to. (My ideal school for my kids would
:require some participation by every parent---not so much to get the
:benefits of that participation, as to keep out the families that don't
:want to participate.)

I never said this. I have no idea who did.

Noreen

wrote:
Rosalie B. wrote:

: The problem is that people keep quoting Marjorie's response where she
: says that someone who doesn't help the public schools is being a bad
: citizen and the REAL problem post was yours where you said:

:I do expect parents to contribute to (participate in) their children's
:schools. Both because I think there's a moral obligation, and because I
:think everyone should want to. (My ideal school for my kids would
:require some participation by every parent---not so much to get the
:benefits of that participation, as to keep out the families that don't
:want to participate.)

I never said this. I have no idea who did.

Noreen

It was David who said that. But it doesn't change Rosalie's point, which was
that there were several statements close to the ones you claim weren't made on
this thread.



-Dawn
Mom to Henry, 10

"Noreen Cooper" wrote in message
If your child has not shown this degree of separation anxiety before, I'd
make sure you volunteer to help out in the classroom ASAP. If for some
reason you are unable to volunteer during kindergarten hours, seek out
another parent who volunteers quite regularly in the classroom and ask
what they perceive to be the problem.


Just wanted to add a comment here. My son's kindergarten teacher has
specifically said that parents should not visit the classroom for one month.
It is hard enough for a child to adjust to a classroom and school and then a
parent being there might make it worse for the child.

Oddly enough, I thought my youngest would have some issues going to school,
he had never been in any day care or pre school, but he seems to be adjusted
well, does his work at school, and behaves well (Even if he is still a lot
rambuncious at home!)

Mary
Mommy to Chris (5) and Alex (7)

(Robyn Kozierok) wrote:

In article ,
MarjiG wrote:
In article , "Rosalie B."
writes:


You've put yourself in the box. It's just an reduction ad absurdum of
your original argument. Someone who doesn't do at least a little is
what you would judge to be a bad parent.

I'll bite... Someone who doesn't do what they can to help public schools is
being a bad citizen.

Ok, I'll bite back. Do you mean this to apply only to parents of children
in the public schools at any given time, or do you mean the entire community?

I don't know what MarjiG meant, but I meant the entire community
should support the schools. Note that she said "what they can" which
is a wide open interpretation - so if all you can do is pay your taxes
then that's all you can do.

I think the community as a whole has an obligation to its public schools.
BUT I also think there are plenty of other parts of a community that also
need the community's support, and it seems crazy to me to think that anyone
would expect every single citizen in the community to "do what they can" to
help the public schools. We need people who do their "what they can" for
other institutions as well in order to have a well-rounded community.

That's true - My point (and maybe MargiG's also) was that parents
didn't have an obligation to the schools over and above what any
citizen (with or without children in the public schools) would have -
that their obligation was to their child and their child's education.
If that overlapped into also helping the schools in some way then that
was fine, but they were not REQUIRED to do that in order to be
considered a good parent.

And, for the record, now that my children are in private school, I do
what I can to help their school, and no longer do anything for the
public schools (other than supporting them with my tax dollars). I
know the public schools need my help as much now as they did when my
kids were there, and I know that children in my community would benefit
if I helped them. But I have chosen to focus my efforts "closer to
home" and do what I can for the struggling alternative school which
happens to be a much better fit for my kids than the public school was.

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

grandma Rosalie