We survived WITHOUT safety edicts

"Wendy Marsden" wrote
And for you examples, you give historical events like the 1918 flu??!
You are not making any sense.
As an example of something causing starvation that wasn't caused by the
government. You have to extrapolate a bit: the 1918 flu was remarkable in
how many young and strong men it killed. That left families without their
earning power and subsequently one can presume that they went hungry. I'm
not claiming it was "mass starvation", but I'd bet my bottom dollar that
there was sporadic starvation as a result.

There was a Pacific island country that heard of the 1918 flu, and
banned all ships from entering its port for a year or until the flu passed.
It completely escaped the 1918 flu. Maybe that's an example of a
gubmnt safety action that saved lives.

"Wendy Marsden" wrote in message
...

Roger Schlafly wrote:

"Wendy Marsden" wrote

Migration, yes. Flu, yes. Unemployment, yes. I've lost track of
your
point here.
People need the safety edicts - the welfare system run by the
government -
to survive. And people without those benefits died.

And for you examples, you give historical events like the 1918
flu??!
You are not making any sense.

As an example of something causing starvation that wasn't caused by
the
government. You have to extrapolate a bit: the 1918 flu was
remarkable in
how many young and strong men it killed. That left families without
their
earning power and subsequently one can presume that they went hungry.

That's a mighty big presumption. Communities--churches,
neighbors--tended to look out for "their own." Besides, deaths caused
by the flu left a wide-open job market.

I'm
not claiming it was "mass starvation", but I'd bet my bottom dollar
that
there was sporadic starvation as a result.

It's past time to establish some definitions. There's *hunger* and then
there's true *starvation*. I think most would classify as simply hunger
that which you've been repeatedly referring to as starvation (and "mass
starvation").

From WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University:

starvation
n 1: a state of extreme hunger resulting from lack of essential
nutrients over a prolonged period [syn: famishment]

Genuine starvation is very rare; indeed, in US history, I'd say the only
true instances of "mass" starvation occurred as a consequence of
government policies/agents (as already discussed) or, on a considerably
smaller scale, by an absolute inability to escape climatic conditions
(e.g., the Donner Party), by force (e.g., someone held captive against
his/her will), or by choice (e.g., by elderly persons seeking to hasten
their deaths). Hunger (and malnutrition), on the other hand, have
always been present, at times (e.g., the Great Depression/Dust Bowl era)
simply more prevalent. Hunger--the need for sustenance--is a great
motivator; witness the number of hungry who, throughout history, have
chosen to relocate in efforts to escape it (about 25% of the population
in some hard-hit regions during the "dust bowl" period, IIRC). My own
great-grandfather emigrated from County Clare in the 1846 to escape the
Irish potato famine; three of his brothers also left, heading separately
to Canada, Australia, and South Africa.

JG

"Naomi Pardue" wrote in message
...

People who have to rely on food stamps shouldn't have horses. :-)

They should eat their cars!

Hehehe... Perhaps they should consider selling (or doing without) all
"non-necessities," e.g., second cars, cable/satellite subscriptions, DVD
players, second (and 3rd, 4th, 5th?) television sets, home theater
equipment, cell phones, enhanced phone services (caller ID, call
forwarding, answering services), large pets... and using the
proceeds/savings to buy food.

JG

"CBI" wrote in message
...

Ever read The Grapes of Wrath?
The Jungle?

Citing fiction? Way to go, Chris! g

"Wendy Marsden" wrote in message
...

[...]

Here's another example of immigrent children's deaths.

Why is their being immigrants relevant?

My three great
aunts died at the turn of the century in Hamtramack from food
poisoning. (At least that's what I think it was, they called it
"summer
complaint".) My great-grandfather always, always bitterly blamed
being
Jewish as the doctor didn't come to their house until it was too late
for
Sadie, Minnie and Rose. No safety net there.

What kind of "safety net" could/would have (possibly) prevented their
deaths? I don't see your point.

Can you imagine losing your
3, 6 and 10 year old daughters? My grandmother was born after her
sisters
all died and grew up an only daughter with three ghosts populating her
family. I assure you, these people didn't lose their children through
Greek-type tragic flaws.

Very similar story in my family: My mom's older sister died at 3 (in
1923) from septicemia. Her father (my grandfather) had closed a car
door on her thumb. My mom grew up an only child as well.

JG

"Roger Schlafly" wrote in message
t...

There was a Pacific island country that heard of the 1918 flu, and
banned all ships from entering its port for a year or until the flu
passed.
It completely escaped the 1918 flu. Maybe that's an example of a
gubmnt safety action that saved lives.

Tick...tock...tick...tock...tick...tock...tick...t ock...waiting for Utz
to show up and suggest that this is analogous to mandatory
vaccination...tick...tock...tick...

JG wrote:
"CBI" wrote in message
...

Ever read The Grapes of Wrath?
The Jungle?

Citing fiction? Way to go, Chris! g

If I recall my high school humanities course correctly (and I might
not) Upton Sinclair was a muckracker/journalist who researched the
meat-packing industry before writing the Jungle. It was partially
responsible for the revisions of meat-packing rules (by the
Government). Yes, the immigrant family depicted was fictionalized, but
the situations were drawn from reality. Same deal with Grapes of
Wrath. They're windows into a world that we don't see from our own eyes.

Wendy

JG wrote:
"Wendy Marsden" wrote in message
My three great
aunts died at the turn of the century in Hamtramack from food
poisoning.

What kind of "safety net" could/would have (possibly) prevented their
deaths? I don't see your point.

Better meat-packing plant standards, for one thing. Access to health care
(even if poor) for another. They still might have died, but we'll never
know because they didn't have clean food or access to doctors.

Being immigrants makes them less likely to have access to whatever
societal supports *were* in place, that tended to be based on people
having known you all your life and your physical location. In other
words, "Joe's kid who lives on the old Colson farm" will get neighborly
help even from people who don't know one thing more about the guy than
that (not even his name) but "the new people who don't talk our language
who came from God-knows-where" aren't going to get the same consideration.

My great-grandparents were neither poor nor stupid, but they had less
access to health care than even poor, stupid immigrants have today.

Wendy

JG wrote:
It's past time to establish some definitions. There's *hunger* and then
there's true *starvation*. I think most would classify as simply hunger
that which you've been repeatedly referring to as starvation (and "mass
starvation").

Well, when I referred to mass starvation I meant malnutrition to the point
where death resulted from opportunistic diseases. Of course, you can say
they died of heart failure if you prefer.

The line between hunger, malnutrition and starvation is pretty slim in a
kid. Kids are also known for not having the economic ability to migrate
in search of better parents. So are we back to saying that the only kids
who starved are ones that don't count for some reason? (Like, because you
haven't heard their names and don't care about them?)

Wendy

"Wendy Marsden" wrote
Well, when I referred to mass starvation I meant malnutrition to the point
where death resulted from opportunistic diseases.

When and where? You have to look pretty hard to find that anywhere
in the world today, or in recent history.