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  #11  
Old March 4th 05, 02:59 AM
illecebra
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Robyn Kozierok wrote:
| In article , illecebra
| wrote:
snip
|
| I'm all for guiding. However, I took exception with what I saw as
| an implied statement that the parents' comfort with a student's
| living arrangements were more important than how the student feels
| about it.
|
| I like to think that what I want for my children will reflect what
| will work for them, including what they want, but also what I believe
| they can handle.

But do you intend to set an ultimatum (i.e. "my way or no college"), or
to let them have a say in the decision? Most colleges, regardless of a
parent's opinion on the matter, require ALL freshman to live in the
dorms unless they live with parents and commute to school. I find this
unfair. Not all young people are the same, and a living situation that
may be good for one may not be good for another.

| I think dorms are, for most young adults, a good stepping-stone into
| living on their own.

I think that it depends on the student and the dorm in question. In a
lot of cases, dorms can be extremely detrimental.

| I think that with the new workload of college classes, new
| responsibilities of living away from home for the first time, having
| meals cooked and bathrooms cleaned for them makes the whole deal a
| lot more manageable.

I think that if someone starting college isn't already doing all their
own laundry, cooking at least a fair share of meals, and doing a fair
share of cooking, there are serious issues to begin with. The lighter
workload might be nice, but it often comes at a price.

| I think that a person who has not lived away from home before may not
| have the experience to make a good decision about whether or not that
| stepping-stone will be a good/necessary step for them or not. I
| think that someone who doesn't know them well may also not have a
| good idea as to whether or not a dorm would be a good/necessary step
| for them.

But, in the end, should it be solely the school's or the parent's
decision? And, even if we assume that your judgements are infallible
(or just that you are right about what's best for your kids in this
case) that doesn't mean that, as a general principle, parents should be
making the decisions.

IME, most parents either care too little, or are too dumb/naive/whatever
to make good decisions for their kids WRT college life. Perhaps I'm
just jaded because I worked with abused children so long, and grew up in
an area where my parents were exceptional for not beating us and
thinking that education is important.

In the end, I'd much rather see a few kids of intelligent, caring
parents screw up (they have a safety net of intelligent, caring parents)
than a whole lot of kids of idiots and creeps be told by our society
that they should never question their parents' wishes, and thus pay for
their parents' idiocy. By the time you're in your late teens, success
or failure should be more about who YOU are then who your parents are.

| Yet, as someone perhaps younger and "cooler" than their
| parents, a young person might put more weight on your suggestion that
| they not live in a dorm than perhaps they ought to, depending on
| their circumstances.

Ummm... this is the second time I've gotten the feeling that someone in
this thread has me confused with Louise, the person who posted that
he/she was working at a GT camp and astounded that the students never
considered the possibility of living out side of residence at college.
Do you realize that that wasn't me, or am I getting a weird vibe for no
reason?

Honestly, in Louise's place, it would worry me that none of them ever
thought about it. It'd worry me just as much if they'd never considered
dorm life. I took her comment to be more about blind acceptance of what
one is expected to do, or about the fact that dorms aren't *the*
solution for *every* student, than about trying to push kids not to live
in dorms. Did I miss something?

| Yes, ideally, by 17 or 18, my kids will trust my husband and me
| enough to know that we have their best interests at heart, and that
| we understand their unique needs, and that our advice regarding
| things like this may be more relevant than that they receive from
| others who don't know them as well. But I would also hope that other
| adults in my children's life would encourage them to trust us rather
| than trying to undermine us. Perhaps it is unrealistic to think that
| we will understand our teens' needs better than others. Right now
| our children are all under 12, so we are not yet into the teen years.

I don't exactly spend a lot of time around 17-18yos these days, but I
was one not too long ago. My advice to them is the same it is to anyone:

Think for yourself. Don't let others make your decisions for you.
Listen to what everyone has to say, get as many different viewpoints,
and as many facts, as humanly possible, then lay them all out and decide
for yourself.

I really don't want my son, when he's a teenager, to do what I say just
because I say to. For one, that would leave him open to all sorts of
manipulation -- by the media, by superiors at work and school, by
lovers, by friends. There are FAR too many sheeple in this world
already, and we are the worse for it. Also, consider that even the best
parent is wrong sometimes. I'd not want my son to blindly follow bad
advice just because it came from me. I'd much rather him see the flaw
in my thinking and decide differently than I would when I'm wrong.

| Being "less than thrilled" with what someone suggests to your child
| implies to me that you don't think that a 17 or 18yo person should
| be exposed to ideas that their parents disagree with. That, to me,
| is excessively controlling. Also, whether parents like it or not,
| college students are exposed to all sorts of people and media, and
| if they can't filter out the good from the bad on their own, they
| won't survive very well.
|
| I interpreted your "suggestion" as "undermining"; perhaps I was out
| of context. But being a trusted adult in someone's life is different
| than being "all sorts of people and media," and with that trusted
| position comes a responsibility to look out for the teens' well-being
| rather than just espousing your own agenda, IMO. It sounded to me
| like you had an agenda to disparage dorm life because it wasn't a
| good fit for you, without regard to whether or not it would be a good
| fit for the teens to whom you were advocating forgoing it.
|
| --Robyn

Ummm... I never advocated that anyone not live in the dorms. I merely
said that I thought it should not be exclusively the parents' or
schools' decision. Perhaps you are confusing me with Louise?

Susan
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  #12  
Old March 4th 05, 04:01 AM
Robyn Kozierok
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In article ,
illecebra wrote:

| I like to think that what I want for my children will reflect what
| will work for them, including what they want, but also what I believe
| they can handle.

But do you intend to set an ultimatum (i.e. "my way or no college"), or
to let them have a say in the decision?


Tough question, and one I'm sure I can't answer yet. If they can
convince me that their preference represents a reasonable and
well-thought-out plan that has a good chance of working out for them,
then I would support them in that choice. But I'm not going to say
that I will open my wallet and let them do whatever they want. There
may be choices I would not be willing to facilitate.

| I think that with the new workload of college classes, new
| responsibilities of living away from home for the first time, having
| meals cooked and bathrooms cleaned for them makes the whole deal a
| lot more manageable.

I think that if someone starting college isn't already doing all their
own laundry, cooking at least a fair share of meals, and doing a fair
share of cooking, there are serious issues to begin with. The lighter
workload might be nice, but it often comes at a price.


Even for kids doing all that at home, the increased school workload is
hard to balance with a full set of household responsibilities for most
new college students I've known. Even buying groceries is a big pain
if you don't have your own car, which my kids likely won't when they
start college.

But, in the end, should it be solely the school's or the parent's
decision? And, even if we assume that your judgements are infallible
(or just that you are right about what's best for your kids in this
case) that doesn't mean that, as a general principle, parents should be
making the decisions.


But if I were infallible, I would be even more justified in being
annoyed at others trying to sway my kids away from my perfect
judgements I guess my concern over other trying to sway them implies
that I do think the kids should and will have a say, otherwise I
wouldn't care what they came to think after talking to other people.

Ummm... this is the second time I've gotten the feeling that someone in
this thread has me confused with Louise, the person who posted that
he/she was working at a GT camp and astounded that the students never
considered the possibility of living out side of residence at college.
Do you realize that that wasn't me, or am I getting a weird vibe for no
reason?


Oops, you're right, I *did* have you confused with Louise! (That is,
I thought you had posted that post as well.) Sorry about that. blush

I really don't want my son, when he's a teenager, to do what I say just
because I say to. For one, that would leave him open to all sorts of
manipulation -- by the media, by superiors at work and school, by
lovers, by friends. There are FAR too many sheeple in this world
already, and we are the worse for it. Also, consider that even the best
parent is wrong sometimes. I'd not want my son to blindly follow bad
advice just because it came from me. I'd much rather him see the flaw
in my thinking and decide differently than I would when I'm wrong.


That all seems perfectly reasonable to me

Of course, I think that in reality it is not that easy to let go,
especially if you think your child's judgement is still developing,
and you disagree with their perception of flaws in your reasoning.
I understand your desire to enable teens to go against their parents'
wishes sometimes, since the parents may be wrong, but at the same
time I'd like to maintain a reasonable amount of parental influence
for the times when we are right

So, I guess I only want to let my children disagree with me when
I'm wrong. ;-) If only my children and I could have the wisdom to
recognize when those instances are, we'd be all set. Failing that,
I thnk parents sometimes have to "insist" on the things they feel
most strongly about, while trusting their teens in other cases.

--Robyn

  #13  
Old March 4th 05, 04:43 AM
Louise
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On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:59:08 EST, illecebra
wrote:

Most colleges, regardless of a
parent's opinion on the matter, require ALL freshman to live in the
dorms unless they live with parents and commute to school. I find this
unfair.


Interesting. I have never heard of any universities with this kind of
rule, except in the USA.

Robyn Kozierok wrote:
| Yet, as someone perhaps younger and "cooler" than their
| parents, a young person might put more weight on your suggestion that
| they not live in a dorm than perhaps they ought to, depending on
| their circumstances.

Ummm... this is the second time I've gotten the feeling that someone in
this thread has me confused with Louise, the person who posted that
he/she was working at a GT camp and astounded that the students never
considered the possibility of living out side of residence at college.
Do you realize that that wasn't me, or am I getting a weird vibe for no
reason?

Honestly, in Louise's place, it would worry me that none of them ever
thought about it. It'd worry me just as much if they'd never considered
dorm life. I took her comment to be more about blind acceptance of what
one is expected to do, or about the fact that dorms aren't *the*
solution for *every* student, than about trying to push kids not to live
in dorms. Did I miss something?


I certainly didn't intend to be pushing anyone into not living in
residence, or to be pushing them into more independence than I thought
they would be ready for a year later. Mostly I got into these
conversations with the young people who seemed to be having particular
difficulty with some facet of living in residence for the month-long
camp, such as the food, the difficulty of keeping early hours when
everyone around you can handle late hours, or bathroom privacy. In at
least one case, a young woman was relieved to hear my opinion that
living with her parents in university might be a workable and
socially-acceptable solution. It also seems useful to me to let young
people know that different universities have different residence
arrangements, so that they can consider those factors in their
investigations and decisions. Some cafeterias cater better than
others to vegans, for example. At some universities, first-year
students can get single rooms, and at others they can't.

I do completely understand Robyn's earlier comment about anticipating
that one of her sons might still need some assistance managing adult
life after he's out of high school, and wanting to smooth those
transitions for him by helping him as needed. I have experience with
that myself, and continue to make choices that provide the immediate
help with a goal of building confidence towards eventual independence.
Intervening when I think someone's misinterpreted the university
application or forgotten its deadline, writing cheques for university
applications instead of reminding him or her that it's time to ask the
bank for his/her own cheques, reading the website of the institution
he or she is attending and mentioning when the website's version of
the exam dates differs from the one he/she is telling me are some
examples slightly altered to preserve some privacy.

Louise

  #14  
Old March 5th 05, 04:57 PM
Hillary Israeli
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In ,
illecebra wrote:

*I think that if someone starting college isn't already doing all their
*own laundry, cooking at least a fair share of meals, and doing a fair
*share of cooking, there are serious issues to begin with. The lighter
*workload might be nice, but it often comes at a price.

Huh. Not to say that someone shouldn't be doing all that stuff, but I
don't really see why they "should," either. Certainly I managed to get
through my high school years without doing laundry or cooking meals! In
fact, my first year of college is absolutely when I learned how to do
laundry, and my second year (when I moved off-campus) is when I learned to
cook (beyond the simple spaghetti and PBJ stuff that of course I had done
at home). Why is that a problem? It really hasn't been a problem in my
life.

h.

--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx



  #15  
Old March 6th 05, 01:39 AM
Robyn Kozierok
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Default

In article ,
Louise wrote:


On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:59:08 EST, illecebra
wrote:

Most colleges, regardless of a
parent's opinion on the matter, require ALL freshman to live in the
dorms unless they live with parents and commute to school. I find this
unfair.


Interesting. I have never heard of any universities with this kind of
rule, except in the USA.


Most of the schools in Ontario (Canada) had this rule back when I was
in school. I don't know if they still do.

I certainly didn't intend to be pushing anyone into not living in
residence, or to be pushing them into more independence than I thought
they would be ready for a year later. Mostly I got into these
conversations with the young people who seemed to be having particular
difficulty with some facet of living in residence for the month-long
camp, such as the food, the difficulty of keeping early hours when
everyone around you can handle late hours, or bathroom privacy. In at
least one case, a young woman was relieved to hear my opinion that
living with her parents in university might be a workable and
socially-acceptable solution. It also seems useful to me to let young
people know that different universities have different residence
arrangements, so that they can consider those factors in their
investigations and decisions. Some cafeterias cater better than
others to vegans, for example. At some universities, first-year
students can get single rooms, and at others they can't.


I think I overracted to your suggestion. This more detailed
explanation sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

--Robyn

  #17  
Old March 7th 05, 12:45 AM
illecebra
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Robyn Kozierok wrote:
In article ,
illecebra wrote:

| I like to think that what I want for my children will reflect what
| will work for them, including what they want, but also what I believe
| they can handle.

But do you intend to set an ultimatum (i.e. "my way or no college"), or
to let them have a say in the decision?


Tough question, and one I'm sure I can't answer yet. If they can
convince me that their preference represents a reasonable and
well-thought-out plan that has a good chance of working out for them,
then I would support them in that choice. But I'm not going to say
that I will open my wallet and let them do whatever they want. There
may be choices I would not be willing to facilitate.


At least you're willing to listen Perhaps I'm overly jaded on such
things, I just have spent a lot more time around really horrible parents
than I have around good ones (my own being the exception

| I think that with the new workload of college classes, new
| responsibilities of living away from home for the first time, having
| meals cooked and bathrooms cleaned for them makes the whole deal a
| lot more manageable.

I think that if someone starting college isn't already doing all their
own laundry, cooking at least a fair share of meals, and doing a fair
share of cooking, there are serious issues to begin with. The lighter
workload might be nice, but it often comes at a price.


Even for kids doing all that at home, the increased school workload is
hard to balance with a full set of household responsibilities for most
new college students I've known. Even buying groceries is a big pain
if you don't have your own car, which my kids likely won't when they
start college.


Understood. I remember trips to Wal-Mart via crowded bus, begging rides
from friends, bicycling everywhere. It's certainly doable, it's also
nice not to have to do it. I just worry about what the trade-off might
be, and it bothers me that most US universities don't give students a
choice.

For example, my first university experience started when I was 17. The
school required that all freshmen not living with parents reside in the
dorms and pay for the dorm meal plan. I couldn't get financial aid
because I couldn't get my parents' tax returns (my dad was working with
a forensic accountant to refile the past several years due to an
embezzling employee messing them up). I have some really weird
allergies, and ended up living on Ho-Hos, bananas, Pop-Tarts and the
occassional chicken sandwich (served only twice a week) for a semester
and a half because I was allergic to everything else, and it took that
long for the school to release me from the meal plan so that I could
afford to buy food from the store. (Once they did, I was still limited
to what I could microwave, as I had no access to any kind of kitchen.)

A group of people in the dorm had video tape of one of the RAs providing
alchohol to underage residents, so the authorities looked the other way
when people broke most rules. The girls on my floor were catty and
obnoxious. They had a habit of pulling the fire alarm at all hours of
the night, or in the morning when the showers were full of sudsy people.
The bathroom was always disgusting (girls would leave used pads and
tampons in the shower stalls, among other gross habits). Privacy was at
a minimum. I was lucky that my roommate left for another residence and
I got a double to myself. I'd have killed for a real, clean bathtub and
a long hot bath.

This was, of course, an extreme situation. The other floors of our
building, and the other dorm complexes at the school were nothing like
this. I made a point of staying over at friends' homes or slipping onto
the guys' floor downstairs as much as humanly possible. The following
year, a friend and I got an apartment about a block from frat row, and
it was comparatively peaceful.

My parents didn't like the idea, but I am a do-it-myself type anyway, so
the extra work was more than worth having a better living situation overall.

snip
Ummm... this is the second time I've gotten the feeling that someone in
this thread has me confused with Louise, the person who posted that
he/she was working at a GT camp and astounded that the students never
considered the possibility of living out side of residence at college.
Do you realize that that wasn't me, or am I getting a weird vibe for no
reason?


Oops, you're right, I *did* have you confused with Louise! (That is,
I thought you had posted that post as well.) Sorry about that. blush


No problem, it happens. Just thought I'd mention it.

I really don't want my son, when he's a teenager, to do what I say just
because I say to. For one, that would leave him open to all sorts of
manipulation -- by the media, by superiors at work and school, by
lovers, by friends. There are FAR too many sheeple in this world
already, and we are the worse for it. Also, consider that even the best
parent is wrong sometimes. I'd not want my son to blindly follow bad
advice just because it came from me. I'd much rather him see the flaw
in my thinking and decide differently than I would when I'm wrong.


That all seems perfectly reasonable to me

Of course, I think that in reality it is not that easy to let go,
especially if you think your child's judgement is still developing,
and you disagree with their perception of flaws in your reasoning.
I understand your desire to enable teens to go against their parents'
wishes sometimes, since the parents may be wrong, but at the same
time I'd like to maintain a reasonable amount of parental influence
for the times when we are right


My husband and I disagree a lot (even now, when our son is only 2) about
how much to let go. I'm a lot more willing to let go than hubby. Then
again, I was an extrememly responsible kid, even from a very young age,
and hubby was rather a terror. I attribute it to some of the, ahem,
differences I have with the various people who raised hubby (he got
passed around a lot, and not by the nicest or most responsible people).

So, I guess I only want to let my children disagree with me when
I'm wrong. ;-) If only my children and I could have the wisdom to
recognize when those instances are, we'd be all set. Failing that,
I thnk parents sometimes have to "insist" on the things they feel
most strongly about, while trusting their teens in other cases.

--Robyn


Wouldn't it be nice if there were some way to just *know* when you're
being an idiot so that you can shut up and not worry that the other
person might really be wrong? If you ever market a stupid idea
detector, I'll buy one!

Susan

  #18  
Old March 7th 05, 12:26 PM
Kevin Karplus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , illecebra wrote:
Robyn Kozierok wrote:

....
Even for kids doing all that at home, the increased school workload is
hard to balance with a full set of household responsibilities for most
new college students I've known. Even buying groceries is a big pain
if you don't have your own car, which my kids likely won't when they
start college.


Understood. I remember trips to Wal-Mart via crowded bus, begging rides
from friends, bicycling everywhere. It's certainly doable, it's also
nice not to have to do it. I just worry about what the trade-off might
be, and it bothers me that most US universities don't give students a
choice.


Actually, even the universities that have an all-freshmen-in-dorms
rule are usually somewhat flexible for unusual situations. They don't
*advertise* that flexibility, but it is usually there.

A group of people in the dorm had video tape of one of the RAs providing
alchohol to underage residents, so the authorities looked the other way
when people broke most rules.


This sounds like a fairly easy thing to fix, though perhaps not an
obvious solution to a 17-year-old. The fix is to skip one layer of
the chain and report problems directly to the RA's boss, explaining
why you can't count on the RA to do his or her job. Too late now, of
course, and you found a solution that you seem to think now is a
superior one (leaving the dorm).

As for getting groceries without a car, I've been doing that for the
past 30 years without too much difficulty (in various places: East
Lansing, Michigan; Palo Alto, California; Ithaca, New York; Santa
Cruz, California; Seattle, Washington). Neither my wife nor I drive,
and we have not found it to be a major inconvenience. We do have to
do grocery shopping more often than most people, since we are limited
by what we can carry in our backpacks or my bicycle panniers (unless I
hitch up the bike trailer, which I used to do a lot for grocery
shopping, but now rarely bother with). Probably the biggest hassles
are for juice and milk, which are rather heavy---especially now that
my son is drinking over a quart a day of milk.

When I went to college at age 16, I was not ready for cooking my own
food (I could cook a little, but I didn't have the discipline needed
to do it every day), and the all-you-can-eat dorm food was probably
essential for me (at the time, I weighed about 110 pounds and was
eating enormous quantities of food). Two years later I lived in an
apartment on campus and lost a couple of pounds that I could ill
afford eating my own cooking. (Since then I have put on about two
pounds a year and could stand to lose a few pounds now.)

I have no real idea now what my almost-nine-year-old son will be like
as a college student, but I suspect that he would do best making a
gradual transition from living at home to living on his own.
We'll certainly explore different options with him and prepare him to
live on his own, but if he continues his current habit of not eating
when he has anything more interesting to do, he'll probably need to
have someone else cooking for him to make sure he eats.


------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
Professor of Biomolecular Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
(Senior member, IEEE) (Board of Directors, ISCB)
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Affiliations for identification only.

  #19  
Old March 7th 05, 05:59 PM
illecebra
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Kevin Karplus wrote:
| In article , illecebra wrote:
snip
|Understood. I remember trips to Wal-Mart via crowded bus, begging rides
|from friends, bicycling everywhere. It's certainly doable, it's also
|nice not to have to do it. I just worry about what the trade-off might
|be, and it bothers me that most US universities don't give students a
|choice.
|
| Actually, even the universities that have an all-freshmen-in-dorms
| rule are usually somewhat flexible for unusual situations. They don't
| *advertise* that flexibility, but it is usually there.

Some do, some don't. I am just trying to point out that dorms are not a
one-size-fits all answer, and that some dorm situations are much better
(or worse) than others.
|
|
|A group of people in the dorm had video tape of one of the RAs providing
|alchohol to underage residents, so the authorities looked the other way
|when people broke most rules.
|
|
| This sounds like a fairly easy thing to fix, though perhaps not an
| obvious solution to a 17-year-old. The fix is to skip one layer of
| the chain and report problems directly to the RA's boss, explaining
| why you can't count on the RA to do his or her job. Too late now, of
| course, and you found a solution that you seem to think now is a
| superior one (leaving the dorm).

I tried. I went all the way up the the campus housing office. Very
little changed.

| As for getting groceries without a car, I've been doing that for the
| past 30 years without too much difficulty (in various places: East
| Lansing, Michigan; Palo Alto, California; Ithaca, New York; Santa
| Cruz, California; Seattle, Washington). Neither my wife nor I drive,
| and we have not found it to be a major inconvenience. We do have to
| do grocery shopping more often than most people, since we are limited
| by what we can carry in our backpacks or my bicycle panniers (unless I
| hitch up the bike trailer, which I used to do a lot for grocery
| shopping, but now rarely bother with). Probably the biggest hassles
| are for juice and milk, which are rather heavy---especially now that
| my son is drinking over a quart a day of milk.

Exactly. It can be done.

| When I went to college at age 16, I was not ready for cooking my own
| food (I could cook a little, but I didn't have the discipline needed
| to do it every day), and the all-you-can-eat dorm food was probably
| essential for me (at the time, I weighed about 110 pounds and was
| eating enormous quantities of food). Two years later I lived in an
| apartment on campus and lost a couple of pounds that I could ill
| afford eating my own cooking. (Since then I have put on about two
| pounds a year and could stand to lose a few pounds now.)

But, you weren't allergic to the dorm food. Try subsisting on ho-hos,
bananas, etc. for a semester and a half until the paperwork goes through
to release you from the dorm meal plan so that you have money for real food.

| I have no real idea now what my almost-nine-year-old son will be like
| as a college student, but I suspect that he would do best making a
| gradual transition from living at home to living on his own.
| We'll certainly explore different options with him and prepare him to
| live on his own, but if he continues his current habit of not eating
| when he has anything more interesting to do, he'll probably need to
| have someone else cooking for him to make sure he eats.
snip

Understood, and I'm glad that you will encourage your son to consider
_every_ option available. I realize that dorms are a great situation
for many people, and that most dorms aren't as awful as the one I
described. However, that doesn't make dorm life good for *every*
freshman in the world.

Susan
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