Maternity Wise

Jousting at windmills again....

Todd I went to the Maternity wise website, and while I don't agree
100% with what they say, I think they do make your point. Why do
I say that? See below...

Todd Gastaldo writes:
: MATERNITY WISE IS DUMB ON A KEY POINT...

: Maternity Wise (Maternity Center Association) is failing to tell
: women that OBs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30% and
: routinely keeping birth canals closed when babies get stuck...

And just what IS Maternity Wise saying?...

They have a table listing things that OBs should NOT do (table 6).

Quoting a couple of lines from that table:

Requiring a supine (flat on back) position in the second stage of labor
Routine use of the lithotomy position for the second stage of labor

What are they saying? DON'T DO THAT! Sounds pretty clear to me.

They are telling OB NOT to do what you are railing against.

Larry

I just had a delightful surprise and posted about it buried in
another thread, but figured it was worth a little more attention. If
you haven't been to the Maternity Wise website, it's really worth the
trip: http://www.maternitywise.org/home.html

They have:

- The full text of _A Guide to Effective Care in Pregnancy and
Childbirth_ available online

- A clear and helpful discussion of VBAC vs. ERCS

- A fabulous booklet on cesarean section (and the supporting
documentation is truly phenomenal)

- An excellent discussion of the Feb 05 NEJM study that purported
to show that early epidurals were no problem.

- A good, balance discussion of birth settings and care providers.

- Results of the 2002 Listening to Mothers survey.

- A broad discussion of pain relief options (with or without drugs).

- A good discussion of informed consent (and lists to questions to
ask your caregiver when making decisions).

- Interview questions to ask of caregivers, doulas, hospitals, etc.

I mean really, what more could you ask for?!

Best wishes,
Ericka

Ooh - thanks! I'm going to email this link to a couple of pg friends!

Irene

MATERNITY WISE IS DUMB ON A KEY POINT...

Maternity Wise (Maternity Center Association) is failing to tell women that
OBs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30% and routinely keeping birth
canals closed when babies get stuck...

Maternity Wise is also failing to tell women that OBs are lying to cover-up.

If Maternity Wise - Maternity Center Association - IS telling women about
these things - which I doubt - well - they didn't inform me - and they
should have - because I was the one who called the gross act of omission to
their attention.

SEE BELOW my response to the email from Carol Sakala, PhD, MSPH, Director of
Programs, Maternity Center
Association...


"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...

I just had a delightful surprise and posted about it buried in
another thread, but figured it was worth a little more attention. If
you haven't been to the Maternity Wise website, it's really worth the
trip: http://www.maternitywise.org/home.html

They have:

- The full text of _A Guide to Effective Care in Pregnancy and
Childbirth_ available online

- A clear and helpful discussion of VBAC vs. ERCS

- A fabulous booklet on cesarean section (and the supporting
documentation is truly phenomenal)

- An excellent discussion of the Feb 05 NEJM study that purported
to show that early epidurals were no problem.

- A good, balance discussion of birth settings and care providers.

- Results of the 2002 Listening to Mothers survey.

- A broad discussion of pain relief options (with or without drugs).

- A good discussion of informed consent (and lists to questions to
ask your caregiver when making decisions).

- Interview questions to ask of caregivers, doulas, hospitals, etc.

I mean really, what more could you ask for?!

Best wishes,
Ericka


Ericka,

Thank you for once again calling attention to Maternity Wise the website of
the Maternity Center Association...

Much good info there.

You ask, "What more could one ask for?!"

How about (for starters), the Maternity Center Association noting that
Effective Care in Pregnancy and Childbirth was censored by Murray Enkin, MD
with the tacit approval of Sir Iain Chalmers, MD?

THE "SCIENTIFIC" INSANITY OF SIR IAIN CHALMERS, MD
Here is Carol Sakala, PhD, MSPH, Director of Programs, Maternity Center
Association essentially echoing Sir Iain Chalmer's "scientific"
insanity that the Maternity Center Association can't tell women that OBs are
lying and closing birth canals up to 30% until there is scientific evidence
that there is benefit to telling women that OBs are lying, etc.


My comments are interspersed #####


Dear Todd,


Thank you for your interest in the work of the Maternity Center Association
and the content of our 2004 booklet, What Every Pregnant Woman Needs to Know
About Cesarean Section (available at
http://www.maternitywise.org/c*esareanbooklet/).


At the Maternity Center Association, we have great regard for appropriate
caregiver support of physiologic labor.


##### I disagree and offer a few examples


##### You are failing to tell women that OBs demonstrated early last century
massive change in AP pelvic outlet diameter; but then changed to saying that
obstetric diameters don't change.


##### You are also failing to tell women that when informed (by Ohlsen) of
radiographic evidence that pelvic diameters DO change, OBs shifted to saying
(erroneously) that dorsal widens.


##### And when OBs were informed that this too was false (by me) - they
re-published their dorsal widens falsehood - but included (as I requested)
the correct biomechanics.


###### Which is the lie? Why not tell women the truth - explicit-like?
It's only their babies' brains on the line...


However, our formal recommendations
require more than plausibility, logic, and informal observation. Those
approaches have led us down the wrong path in maternity care many times in
the past.


At present, the best formal sorting of research on these matters is the
Cochrane Review entitled "Position for Women During Second Stage of Labour."
Currently, all variations on "upright" position are folded in together in
this systematic review. It is certainly plausible that future research will
discriminate among different upright positions and lend support to your
concerns. I hope that you and others will consider undertaking needed
research to help clarify these matters.


Please post this message to your discussion group to clarify our position
for others as well.


Best wishes,
Carol


Carol Sakala, PhD, MSPH
Director of Programs
Maternity Center Association

END letter from Carol Sakala, PhD MSPH

Todd continues...

MDs are lying and babies are dying unexplained deaths - and the Maternity
Center Association PhD is falling back on Sir Iain's "science."


BTW, Carol Sakala, PhD of the Maternity Center Association was responding to
my post:


Big babies/Bizarre acts of omission (and a 1957 x-ray accident)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com*/grou...t/message/2833

This latter post is where I mentioned Ericka's previous mention of the
maternitywise website...


Carol mentioned "discriminating among different upright positions"...


Jason Gardosi, MD of Britain conducted a "randomised controlled trial of
squatting" - where nobody squatted. (!)


Now THAT was science! LOL!


Interesting factoid: In a separate paper, Jason stated the grisly
birth-canal-closing biomechanics of semisitting - but said he had to use
semisitting because MIDWIVES insisted - LOL!


MDs and MBs anti-scientifically, anti-competitively drove midwives into
hospitals - and Gardosi blamed 'em for a bad habit they picked up! LOL!

Maternity Wise has a lot of good information.

But the Maternity Center Association is failing to inform women of a key
fact: OBs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30% and routinely
keeping birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck.

Maternity Center Association is also failing to inform women that OBs are
lying to cover-up.

Maternity Wise is dumb in this regard.

Babies are suffering as a consequence of silence on this issue.

PREGNANT WOMEN: By using semisitting and dorsal delivery, OBs are closing
birth canals up to 30%. Also, when babies get stuck, OBs KEEP women
semisitting and dorsal - they KEEP the birth canal closed the "extra" up to
30% as they pull with hands, forceps and vacuums. By immediately clamping
cords, OBs are temporarily asphyxiating babies and robbing them of up to 50%
of their blood volume.

THE SOLUTION:

1. To allow your birth canal to OPEN the "extra" up to 30%,
simply roll onto your side as you push your baby out - BUT BEWARE - some OBs
will let pregnant women "try" alternative delivery positions - but will roll
them back to semisitting/dorsal - close their birth canals the "extra" up to
30% for the actual delivery. Talk to your OB.

2. To allow your baby to have the "extra" up to 50% of blood volume, do not
let the OB or midwife clamp the umbilical cord until it has stopped
pulsating and your baby is pink and breathing and not in need of
resuscitation.

NOTE #1: Allowing the birth canal to open the "extra" up to 30% will not
prevent all episiotomies or c-sections or forceps/vacuum use - but OBs have
no business closing
birth canals the "extra" up to 30% in the first place.

NOTE #2: There are rare cases where the OB must clamp immediately - but they
are indeed rare. OBs are routinely clamping cords immediately - routinely
robbing babies of up to 50% of their blood volume. Talk to your OB today.

I am in favor of pardons in advance for MDs. As medical
students MDs are TRAINED to perform obvious child abuse which sometimes
kills.

Thanks for reading everyone.

Todd

Dr. Gastaldo
Hillsboro, Oregon

LARRY QUIXOTE JOUSTING AGAIN

See below...

"Larry McMahan" wrote in message
...

Jousting at windmills again....


Your jousting creates wind to turn the mill which will (eventually) grind
obstetric birth position insanity to a halt. : )

See below.

Todd I went to the Maternity wise website, and while I don't agree
100% with what they say, I think they do make your point. Why do
I say that? See below...

Todd Gastaldo writes:
: MATERNITY WISE IS DUMB ON A KEY POINT...

: Maternity Wise (Maternity Center Association) is failing to tell
: women that OBs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30% and
: routinely keeping birth canals closed when babies get stuck...

And just what IS Maternity Wise saying?...

They have a table listing things that OBs should NOT do (table 6).

Quoting a couple of lines from that table:

Requiring a supine (flat on back) position in the second stage of labor
Routine use of the lithotomy position for the second stage of labor

What are they saying? DON'T DO THAT! Sounds pretty clear to me.

They are telling OB NOT to do what you are railing against.


Larry,

LOL! The table/text you found referred to the very chapter (32) from which
Enkin censored reference to x-ray studies which indicate that squatting
opens.
http://www.maternitywise.org/guide/synopsis/table6.html

Enkin censored this information because I pointed out to him that the x-ray
studies were NOT squatting studies - and that they indicated that
semisitting and dorsal CLOSE - up to 30%.

On p. 293 (Chap 22), Enkin does write: "MINOR degrees of cephalopelvic
disproportion...may sometimes be overcome by encouraging the mother to vary
her position." (emphasis added).

Why did not Enkin state that in some women, standard delivery positions deny
MAJOR amounts of pelvic outlet area? (The word "massive" appeared in the
medical literature in a lame study that attempted to refute the x-ray
studies.)

Here is Maternity Center Association "encouraging women to be upright and
moving during labor (not on their backs, a position that can inhibit labor)"
http://www.maternitywise.org/mw/topi...n/options.html

Why the "can inhibit labor" euphemism?

Why can't Maternity Center Association simply/directly STATE that
semisitting and dorsal - on-the-back delivery positions - close the birth
canal up to 30%?

Why did Maternity Center Association tell me in effect that - before they
can tell women that OBs are closing birth canals and lying to cover-up -
they need scientific evidence that there is benefit to offering women this
key information?

BTW, to obtain such scientific evidence, Maternity Center Association would
have to tell women that they are closing birth canals intentionally. Few
women would participate in such a study I suspect - and some women might
point out that such a study is unethical - which would amount to pointing
out that standard obstetrics is unethical - which MIGHT have something to do
with the Maternity Center Association's
reticence/we-need-scientific-evidence baloney.

In other words, Maternity Center Association CAN'T say what I want them to
say - because the whole obstetric house of cards falls - i.e. - it is
unethical/illegal to ignore the medical literature and close birth canals
the "extra" up to 30%.

THAT'S why Enkin censored.

Enkin censored so as NOT to make my point.

Todd

PS In Enkin's chapter on forceps and vacuum extraction, there is no mention
of the fact that OBs are routinely KEEPING birth canals closed the "extra"
up to 30% when babies get stuck as they pull with forceps and vacuums...
http://www.maternitywise.org/pdfs/gecpc3ch41.pdf

Larry, it is standard obstetric practice to place women on their sacra -
close their birth canals up to 30%.

Don't you think Enkin should have mentioned this in his chapter on forceps
and vacuums?

As you know, with birth canals senselessly closed up to 30%, OBs sometimes
pull so hard they rip spinal nerves out of tiny spinal cords...

In misc.kids.pregnancy Todd Gastaldo wrote:

: Larry, it is standard obstetric practice to place women on their sacra -
: close their birth canals up to 30%.

Todd,

What does "standard" mean? Depending on the definition, I am not sure
I believe that this is still the case (maybe I'm too much of an
optimist)

I am sure that there are still a large number of OBs who still
adopt this view, and some hospitals where it is policy, but today
I would think that they are in the minority. I am more often
seeing recommendations in medical writing and in the mainstream
press to get women off their butts!

Now, that still does not excuse those who still advocate the practice.
You should continue your campaign until the practice is stamped out
entirely, but resorting to hyperbole does not stamp it out quicker.

Sigh,
Larry

SEMISITTING USED IN A "MINORITY" OF HOSPITALS?

I DOUBT IT.

See below.

"Larry McMahan" wrote in message
...
In misc.kids.pregnancy Todd Gastaldo wrote:

: Larry, it is standard obstetric practice to place women on their sacra -
: close their birth canals up to 30%.

Todd,

What does "standard" mean? Depending on the definition, I am not sure
I believe that this is still the case (maybe I'm too much of an
optimist)

I am sure that there are still a large number of OBs who still
adopt this view, and some hospitals where it is policy, but today
I would think that they are in the minority. I am more often
seeing recommendations in medical writing and in the mainstream
press to get women off their butts!

Now, that still does not excuse those who still advocate the practice.
You should continue your campaign until the practice is stamped out
entirely, but resorting to hyperbole does not stamp it out quicker.

Sigh,
Larry

Larry,

You said of Enkin et al., "I think they do make your point"...

I refuted that. They DON'T make my point.

Indeed, as I indicated, Enkin et al. CENSORED so as not to make my point
that OBs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30%.

See Larry Quixote jousting again...
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/3489

Regarding your mention of "recommendations in medical writing and in the
mainstream press to get women off their butts!" (your exclamation point)...

Those recommendations don't make my point either - i.e. - they don't say WHY
women should get off their butts. (NOTE: Saying "x-ray studies show that
squatting opens" doesn't make the point either - Enkin et al. tried that -
then took that out as part of their censorship - because they didn't want me
to keep pointing out that the x-ray studies - which were not squatting
studies - suggested that semisitting and dorsal CLOSE . See again Larry
Quixote jousting again, URL above.)

You wrote: "You should continue your campaign until the practice is stamped
out
entirely, but resorting to hyperbole does not stamp it out quicker."

Please offer EVIDENCE that I am engaging in hyperbole - I would love to see
it.

If medical writing and mainstream press articles finally STATED OUTRIGHT
that OBs are routinely closing birth canals up to 30% (and lying to
cover-up) - the practice would get stamped out a lot faster - because
everyone knows it is wrong to close the birth canal the "extra" up to 30% -
and lying to cover-up - well - everyone knows that is wrong too.

Larry, your signing with a "sigh" was a nice pejorative trivialization of my
efforts.

It would have been more appropriate to acknowledge that I refuted your
point.

I say again: Enkin et al. do NOT make my point - indeed - they CENSORED so
as not to make my point.

And now you are making with what appears to me to be pure speculation that
semisitting is only used in a "minority" of hospitals.

Todd

PS As I've noted before, just months ago, Oregon Health & Science
University/OHSU - Oregon's only
medical school - was PROMOTING birth-canal-semisitting delivery online.

I complained...

See Birth child abuse: Oregon's only medical school (OHSU)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com*/grou...t/message/2986

OHSU's link to the misinformation is now dead - or rather - one is re-routed
to
www.ohsuwomenshealth.com...

(If anyone can find a page where OHSU is still promoting
birth-canal-closing/semisitting delivery, I would like to know about it.)

Although OHSU does not appear to be promoting
birth-canal-closing/semisitting online anymore, my bet is that OBs and
CNMwives at OHSU still do birth-canal-closing/semisitting deliveries all the
time. I'd also bet that they move women to semisitting or dorsal when
babies get stuck and they pull with forceps or vacuums.

It's standard obstetric practice - just look at most any obstetric text -
even recent ones.

Larry if you have EVIDENCE that OBs are not placing women semisitting and/or
dorsal routinely - please post it.

I am especially interested in evidence that OBs are not placing women
semisitting and dorsal routinely when babies get stuck and they pull with
forceps and vacuums.

Thanks in advance.

Todd

In ,
Larry McMahan wrote:

*In misc.kids.pregnancy Todd Gastaldo wrote:
*
*: Larry, it is standard obstetric practice to place women on their sacra -
*: close their birth canals up to 30%.
*
*Todd,
*
*What does "standard" mean? Depending on the definition, I am not sure
*I believe that this is still the case (maybe I'm too much of an
*optimist)

I agree with Larry. I have had three children in Philadelphia, PA's
largest maternity hospital (Pennsylvania Hospital) and while on occasion
an ignorant resident attempted to get me to flip onto my back (from my
preferred side-lying position), my OBs always agreed with me that
side-lying was better and in fact I did deliver side-lying all three
times.

--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

in article , Hillary Israeli at
wrote on 5/25/05 5:36 AM:

In ,
Larry McMahan wrote:

*In misc.kids.pregnancy Todd Gastaldo wrote:
*
*: Larry, it is standard obstetric practice to place women on their sacra -
*: close their birth canals up to 30%.
*
*Todd,
*
*What does "standard" mean? Depending on the definition, I am not sure
*I believe that this is still the case (maybe I'm too much of an
*optimist)

I agree with Larry. I have had three children in Philadelphia, PA's
largest maternity hospital (Pennsylvania Hospital) and while on occasion
an ignorant resident attempted to get me to flip onto my back (from my
preferred side-lying position),

Yes, flipping women onto their backs does seem pretty standard.


my OBs always agreed with me that
side-lying was better and in fact I did deliver side-lying all three
times.

If one defines "standard" as what happens when a woman tells an obstetrician
what she wants, then I agree with Larry too.

If however one defines as "standard" what happens in MOST births - I think
"flipping women onto their backs is still the standard.

Todd