writing

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
Stephanie wrote:

You know what? You are making me rethink discussing this with teh doc
now. The one thing that just touched down in my head is the sequencing.
You know those sequencing cards that tell as story? You are supposed to
put them in order? He has always had a hard time withthose.

Now that I've browbeaten you about taking the
possibility of an issue seriously, I'll also agree with
you that at 6yo it could just be normal variation.



Oh Now Stop! You're confusing me. Just kidding. But I do think it is worth a
phone call.

But,
the sequencing thing would make me prick up my ears as
well. It seems like when these things come up, they
show up with a group of issues. In both my boys' cases,
the bigger umbrella is ADHD, and then there is a small
assortment of other issues.


Oh No. ADHD has come up. Do you mind if I go on a little tear? I would bet
my last dollar that ADHD is going to come up in the schools. Lord knows his
childcare providers were pestering me about it (back when he went to
daycare) since he was 3. I had to keep telling them, teh pediatrician says
there is nothing to test until 3.

Now let me try to actually be clear for a change. If he has ADHD, then
something needs to be done. If you read the website I read about ADHD, he
really is the poster child. So what IS ADHD?

To quote www.adhd.com

"Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) is a neurological condition
related, in part, to the brain's chemistry and anatomy. ADHD manifests
itself as a persistent pattern of inattention and/or
hyperactivity/impulsivity that occurs more frequently and more severely than
is typically observed in people at comparable levels of development."


It is a brain chemistry differrence which yields a different set of
behaviors than many or most other folks. I don't know for sure that that
defiinition requires a diagnosis of Deficit and Disorder. Going off in my
imagination, I can imagine the world before nice little rows of desks and
cubicle farms. In that world, folks lived by getting their food. The people
without ADHD may have foraged for nuts, and carefully waited for deer or
whatever. The ADHD folks were the ones who ran down the antelopes and the
jaguars. While running their heads plotted the demise of their tasty dinner.

My sill point being that there is no intrinsic badness to this behavioral
difference. What is bad is that an ADHD is not going to fit well in the
environment of trasional US school. There are 2 choices. Change the kid's
behavior. Or change the kid's environment. There are folks who rightly make
either choice.

Did I manage to say that without being offensive for a change? Almost sounds
like I did.


I really, truly believed
that there was nothing "wrong" and it was just maturity
and being boys and all that sort of stuff until DS1 was
pushing 9 years old and the struggles with homework
had become beyond miserable for all of us. I just kept
thinking if I could manage expectations a little better,
or keep things more organized, or whatever, that things
would turn around and it would all be ok. He was learning
the material in school just fine, so it always seemed like
it must be a problem with something other than him, because
he was learning, and wasn't that the point? In reality,
he was as or more frustrated than I was, and it was just
that he was so very bright that he'd been able to compensate
for his issues so that it was really hard to figure out
that he *had* any.
When we finally reached our breaking point, I
decided to have him evaluated soup to nuts, because I
wanted to *know* what we were dealing with, if anything
(although I don't know what I'd have done if they'd come
back saying everything was totally normal!). I didn't
get the answers I wanted or expected, but ultimately
they led to successful coping mechanisms, so it was a
good thing.
DS1 also had some sequencing troubles. It was
almost as if he had so many ideas that they just
tumbled out of him in a disorganized way, and there
was no way for his writing to keep up with it. Even
if you took the writing out of it, he would have a
hard time retelling a story in the right order with
the most salient points.


DS can get the order of a story that is read to him just right. I don't know
what points are salient.



He'd almost get lost wandering
around odd bits of detail. His dysgraphia is fairly
mild, so in the early grades the main observable problem
was really messy handwriting. When he got to the point
where he was writing longer pieces, then we *really* saw
a lot of the issues crop up with the inability to get a
more complicated set of ideas onto paper in a sensible
way. He *had* the ideas. He just couldn't get them
out effectively.
I totally have no idea whether your son is
just within the normal range of variation or whether
he's struggling with something. I just feel passionately
that it's so easy with bright kids to overlook these
problems, if and when they exist--especially for teachers
and others who don't spend as much time with them and don't
really have the opportunity to catch all the little nuances.


Handwriting is only one of many of DS's problems at school, unfortunately. I
just don't think it hit the radar for them as strongly as it did for me. I
expect the stay on task dynamic to differ in a 1 adult to 2 kid ration. Also
whether or not we test for ADHD, which I probably will, though I still wish
that they would change the name, we will be looking at behavioral
modification and see if that helps. Also the mode of instruction, moving
away from auditory as the primary mode and into kinethetic and visual will
help attract his interest a ton.

Even now, more than three years later, I'm still finding
areas where I thought they were performing at their ability
level when in fact, one of their issues was getting in the
way. I don't necessarily think that they have to max out
their performance in every single area of their lives, but
especially now that they're older, these things are means
to achieve ends that they actually care about.



That is what motivates me. He is frustrated. He wants to do something and
can't.


They have
an internal sense of what they ought to be able to do,
and get really frustrated when they can't perform at that
level.

So, whatever happens, good luck. Keep your eyes
peeled, pay attention to the details, and know that you
are in the best position to make an informed judgment about
whether something needs to be looked into. Don't let
false pride motivate you, but don't let false modesty
blind you to issues either. It may look uppity to say
there's something wrong when your child is performing
beyond grade level, but you can evaluate him as an
individual and those who think you've got a bad case
of pushy-mother-itis can go jump in a lake ;-)



Thanks. I appreciate it.


Best wishes,
Ericka

"Welches" wrote in message
...

"Stephanie" wrote in message
news:1BkIh.67$vb.29@trndny04...

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
Stephanie wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
news Stephanie wrote:

The problem I have is the notion that a child need to learn to do
something that they are not ready to learn in order to make the
administration of a bloated system easier.
Do you know that?


We all have to go with what we know.

I assume for years that my eldest
was just a late bloomer. He wasn't. He had an innate issue
that got in the way of his writing, and it didn't magically
go away with age.


Luckily DS is 6 and in kindy. We have time.

I would give my eye teeth to have gotten him the
help he needed earlier. It would have made many things
easier.


You know what? You are making me rethink discussing this with teh doc
now. The one thing that just touched down in my head is the sequencing.
You know those sequencing cards that tell as story? You are supposed to
put them in order? He has always had a hard time withthose.
Don't take this as a "get" at your son but I'm wondering whether he
enjoys/can do jigsaws?


He used to love them and be very good at them. I probably have to get some
more challenging ones.

I wonder whether difficulty with sequencing would be a similar thing.


I just noticed that was one of the things mentioned on the website I was
reading. And then I remember that he was playing with the preshool
sequencing cards and couldn't easily do it. The cards would show a child
making a pizza with 5 cards with different pictures shwoing making the
dough, rolling the dough, ...

I don't know what that means but I remember a teacher I did volunteer work
with when I was 16 commenting that one of the children who otherwise
seemed bright couldn't do jigsaws (at age 5) you would have expected them
to find easy. She mentioned that it *could" be a pointer for some problem.
I assume that it is a problem that is helped by early intervention as she
was talking about the sooner this child was assessed and helped (if
necessary) the better.
Debbie

On Fri, 09 Mar 2007 14:24:19 GMT, "Stephanie"
wrote:

Sorry if this sounds defensive, but geez. Where did you get special ed out
of this question?

I wondered about this too.

Maybe he means that your son might need OT (this is a special
education intervention for fine motor skills)


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Fri, 09 Mar 2007 20:36:22 GMT, "Stephanie"
wrote:

Incidentally, DS's experienced teacher had no
advice on how to proceed with his writing diffiulties.

I must say I am surprised at that since most K and 1st grade teachers
do have ideas on teaching handwriting.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article c4aIh.7989$pi.7194@trndny09, "Stephanie"
wrote:

A little background. My son, now 6, was never into coloring and "drawing"
back when he was little. I noted it then. I notice now that he does draw
and
try to express himself on paper, but his drawings are way simple and
abstract compared to his peers. He HATES writing. He is awkward with the
pencil in his hands. He labors mightily over letters.

Does he hold the pencil correctly, sit properly etc? Has the teacher had
a
look at what he's doing? Boys are sometimes a bit slower to pick up
writing
than girls, but the teacher should have a handle on what is in the normal
range.

He is currently in public school, at least for the remainder of this
year. I
don't, personally, beleive that someone needs to learn a skill on someone
else's timeline. So if I succeed at bringing him home to homeschool (as
in
if I prove to myself and my husband that we can make it on his salary!) I
will focus on bringing the joy back into expressing oneself on paper
before
I proceed to looking into writing. [...]
I would not be surprised, though I don't know for certain, that his
dislike
of writing is linked tohis lack of success. When he was little, he was
never
into process as they are supposed to be in the toddler and preschool
years.
He was always frustrated when he could not draw a perfect representation
of
whatever he wanted. I think that persists.

Well, I don't quite know what that means. If he can't write and draw to
his
own satisfaction, the joy might be a long time in coming. What I mean is:
could his slowness be simply due to perfectionism, which is common in
gifted
children?


Very possible. Also, he gets very rigid when forced to do something he does
not want to do. And that thing becomes the enemy. Like maybe he would like
to be able to write well, but damn it I am not going to practice because
they keep MAKING me. That's why I wondered about the handwriting without
tears as a means of putting some fun into the process of advancing the
skill.


--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You
may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

"Stephanie" wrote:

Handwriting is only one of many of DS's problems at school, unfortunately. I
just don't think it hit the radar for them as strongly as it did for me. I
expect the stay on task dynamic to differ in a 1 adult to 2 kid ratio.

I know in my dd#2's case, she was really upset at things her ds was
doing which she remembered were a problem for her when she was a kid.
It was more important to her that he NOT behave in that particular way
than anything else that he did (or didn't do). She just could not
stand to have him do the things that had been her problems.

And I'm that way too - I have certain hot buttons that I just can NOT
stand to see in my children/grandchildren. And it was the same way
with my mom. Certain things that I did just set her teeth on edge.

So I wonder if you look back on your own school days - did you have
the same problems?

"Stephanie" wrote in message
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"Stephanie" wrote in message
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"Jeff" wrote in message
news:CCgIh.25543$tf.8232@trndny06...

"Stephanie" wrote in message
news:9BfIh.13141$kf.4826@trndny02...

...

The other thing you can do is start the homework without tears thing
now, and continue it over the summer. That would give you a better
idea if you want to home school him.


That's the plan, Stan! How would that give me a better idea of whether
or not I want to homeschool though?

You've been educating your son for six years now. However, the formal
education is different from the type of education that you have been
giving him.


How do you know this? On what assumptions of how what we have been doing
needs to differ from what we are going to do? Have you done a great deal
of reading on the different ways that homeschooling is done? There are
certainly many alternatives to school at home. While I appreciate your
genuine desire to be helpful, I suspect that you don't know enough about
the subject matter.

You get an idea if how does in a more formal setting than you have been
in.


If I wanted a formal setting, I would leave him in school. Why do you
assume a formal education is necessary?

I believe that all people are natural learners. I beleive that education
should tap and nurture. For some, formal settings can work great. For
others, not so great.

Plus, you may find out that giving him this sort of education is not the
thing for you.

Jeff


Thanks.


I am sorry Jeff. I know you are trying to be helpful, and don't need my
exhaustion induced snarkiness. I came asking about writing. My nerves are
raw to receive advice about homeschooling based on no information about
me, my son, my family or what learning we have done about homeschooling! I
apologize.

I know. No problem.

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
news
"Stephanie" wrote:

Handwriting is only one of many of DS's problems at school, unfortunately.
I
just don't think it hit the radar for them as strongly as it did for me. I
expect the stay on task dynamic to differ in a 1 adult to 2 kid ratio.

I know in my dd#2's case, she was really upset at things her ds was
doing which she remembered were a problem for her when she was a kid.
It was more important to her that he NOT behave in that particular way
than anything else that he did (or didn't do). She just could not
stand to have him do the things that had been her problems.

And I'm that way too - I have certain hot buttons that I just can NOT
stand to see in my children/grandchildren. And it was the same way
with my mom. Certain things that I did just set her teeth on edge.

So I wonder if you look back on your own school days - did you have
the same problems?


No. DH had some similar problems. Handwriting was not one of them that I
have ever heard. I am not thinking that a diffiulty with handwriting is
setting my teeth on edge though. I, personally, could not care less if he
writes well today or three years from now, depending on how HE feels about
it.

"Stephanie" wrote in message
news:2HxIh.1943$vb.1421@trndny04...

If your son might have ADHD, it is probably worthwhile for you to learn more
about ADHD and what kinds of things you can do to help kids with ADHD. Some
of the things that help kids with ADHD is a set schedule. So, he gets up,
pees, eats breakfast, gets dressed and then starts schooling, with the same
subjects following each other, every day. This, I know, is the opposite of
unschooling some ways. By adding the structure of the same schedule each
day, you enable him to succeed.

BTW, the things that you can do to help kids with ADHD also help kids
without ADHD, as well.

One advantage of getting your son evaluated for ADHD is that there other
conditions that look like ADHD. If he has one of them, it might be able to
be treated, for example, lead poisioning can cause attention problems.

Jeff

"Donna Metler" wrote in message
. ..
...

OT should be provided by the school system, but in general, kids who are
on
or above grade level academically won't get such services without a
medical
diagnosis which automatically qualifies them for said services, and in
most
cases, MDs are moving away from the more blanket diagnosis (like mild
cerebral palsy, which is a qualifying label since IDEA was authorized) to
the more specific (like hypotonia or athetosis, both of which, 20 years
ago,
would have been considered forms of CP, and as stand alone labels, qualify
the child for absolutely nothing).

It's sad that the schools have to have the right label to provide the right
services.

Jeff