writing

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
Stephanie wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message

My opinion is that *because* you have some choices
available to you about how to manage his schooling, that is
less relevant. The real question (in my opinion) is how things
affect your child and what he wants to do in life. I drives me
utterly insane that so many people see ADHD as just a behavioral
issue. Yeah, for the kids with hyperactive or combined type
ADHD, in the earlier years there can be behavioral issues in
environments that aren't friendly to noise and movement.
That's the least of the worries. That's just an inconvenience,
and they learn to manage many of those behaviors as they get
older. It's the less visible things that cause problems that
are much more significant. It's the compromise of executive
functioning that makes it difficult for them to plan and
succeed at tasks that are important to them. It's the limitations
on working memory that cause reading comprehension problems, even
when they can decode just fine. It's the lack of impulse control
that makes it difficult for them to make and keep friends.
*These* sorts of things are issues regardless of the type of
education they're receiving. Not every kid will deal with
every challenge.

Yeah a lot ofd those things suck. Taht does not make the difference in
capability a deficit or a disorder.

Honestly, I don't really give a rip what it's
called. All that matters to me is that figuring out
what's getting in the way of my kids achieving what
they want to achieve and figuring out effective ways
to remove those obstacles. I had to give up being
touchy about what things were called because I just
didn't have the emotional energy left over for that.



Well I am NOT giving up my righteous indignation, and you can't make me.
I did have fun with my little tear, though. Would you deny me that?



You know I am just grousing about the term, right? It is the very fact
that the term uses the terms deficit and disorder that beg to fix the
child. Fix them because they are broken. That is not an open and problem
solving frame of mind to start from IMO. That's all I meant by my little
tirade.

Eh, I totally don't think in that direction anymore,
so I gave up worrying about that. I couldn't afford to
take on more stuff. And really, I didn't find that any
of the teachers or others I was working with were hung
up on those sorts of characterizations. Actually, in
many ways it was helpful, because labeling it a "deficit"
or "disorder" elevated it out of the arena of choice.
They weren't *choosing* not to pay attention, or *choosing*
not to turn in homework, or *choosing* to be insufficiently
motivated, or whatever. Any times they thought it was
attitude or motivation or behavioral, all of a sudden
it was *my* problem to fix. When it was characterized
as a "deficit/disorder" it became *their* responsibility
to find a way to accommodate in the classroom. So really,
things just didn't play out that way for us.



Good. That's good. Did you get pressure to medicate or is that situation
less common these days? I know my nephew used to get all sorts of pressure.
I have no objection to medication. I just hate the way people used to get
pressured toward that solution. Or perhaps the subset that I know of is so
unrepresentative, it is a moot point.

An ADHD
diagnosis spurred cooperation much more than it shut
anything down (though there were bumps in the road on
occasion, and some teachers were better at understanding
it than others).
Also, at least with some of the issues, my *kids*
saw them as deficits. We talk all the time about how
there's a lot of variation in how different people are
wired, and how there can be advantages to those variations
as well as disadvantages. Nevertheless, *they* felt like
they *wanted* a fix for some of the things. It drove
DS2 *nuts* to be able to read at a higher level, and
to be interested in the more complicated stories at a
higher reading level, but not to be able to maintain
enough of the storyline in his head that he could
understand what was going on in the story. It drove
DS1 *nuts* to do his homework (and do a good job of
it) and then lose it before it got turned in, or to
have all kinds of interesting ideas but be unable to
communicate them to his friends in an understandable
way. They weren't averse to speaking plainly about
what they felt to be an obstacle to doing some of the
things they wanted to do.


I hear you.

So, in principle I agree with you to some extent.
I also think that as we learn more about ADHD, we'll
probably find out that there are multiple different
issues going on within that umbrella term, probably
with different symptoms, causes, and resolutions.
In the meantime, I really don't care what they call
it as long as we can all work together to help kids
get through it.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Stephanie wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message

Well I am NOT giving up my righteous indignation, and you can't make me.
I did have fun with my little tear, though. Would you deny me that?

Not at all ;-) I used to do a lot of that! I'm
just old and tired now! ;-)

Eh, I totally don't think in that direction anymore,
so I gave up worrying about that. I couldn't afford to
take on more stuff. And really, I didn't find that any
of the teachers or others I was working with were hung
up on those sorts of characterizations. Actually, in
many ways it was helpful, because labeling it a "deficit"
or "disorder" elevated it out of the arena of choice.
They weren't *choosing* not to pay attention, or *choosing*
not to turn in homework, or *choosing* to be insufficiently
motivated, or whatever. Any times they thought it was
attitude or motivation or behavioral, all of a sudden
it was *my* problem to fix. When it was characterized
as a "deficit/disorder" it became *their* responsibility
to find a way to accommodate in the classroom. So really,
things just didn't play out that way for us.

Good. That's good. Did you get pressure to medicate or is that situation
less common these days? I know my nephew used to get all sorts of pressure.
I have no objection to medication. I just hate the way people used to get
pressured toward that solution. Or perhaps the subset that I know of is so
unrepresentative, it is a moot point.

I didn't get any pressure. Now, you have to
understand that neither of my boys are particularly
hyperactive, so they weren't exhibiting those sorts
of symptoms very much. I desperately didn't want to
medicate. Part of the reason we chose the testing
we did was to give ourselves the best chance of surfacing
issues *other* than ADHD. I was in denial for quite
some time after they came back saying that attention
was a significant issue. I stayed in denial even longer
when medication was recommended (among other things)
by the doctors.

Because we'd done the testing privately, the
teachers didn't really even know about the diagnosis
in the early stages. They hadn't even said
anything ahead of time about thinking ADHD was an
issue (though I think some of them might have thought
so and were just too discreet to say). One teacher
suggested that he felt *something* was getting in the
was of DS1 performing at his ability level, but wasn't
about to suggest what he thought it might be. So anyway,
since they didn't know about the diagnosis, they certainly
weren't in any position to push medication. Ultimately,
that was a decision we made in concert with the doctors.
This year with DS1, some of the teachers have brought up
the possibility that meds might need to be adjusted in
the course of discussing why DS1 has seemed to struggle
more this year with organizational issues. Since
we had already been discussing these things, I don't
think the comment was out of line (and I did think that
he was undermedicated at the time because he'd grown
a lot and had been on a very low dosage even for his
previous size).

Really, when you get down to it, the response
from almost all our teachers and administrators has been
positive and helpful. The only thing that has been
challenging on occasion is that some teachers Just Don't
Get It. They are often willing to help in principle,
but don't really know how to help effectively, and when
their ineffective efforts don't work, they backslide into
thinking it's an effort/motivation/behavioral issue.
So, it's a delicate balance helping get them the tools
they need to help things work better in the classroom.
Fortunately, our principal has a lot of experience with
this and will step in to educate a teacher who isn't
finding effective strategies in the classroom.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Mar 9, 10:53 pm, "Stephanie" wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message

. ..



Stephanie wrote:
A little background. My son, now 6, was never into coloring and "drawing"
back when he was little. I noted it then. I notice now that he does draw
and try to express himself on paper, but his drawings are way simple and
abstract compared to his peers. He HATES writing. He is awkward with the
pencil in his hands. He labors mightily over letters.

He is currently in public school, at least for the remainder of this
year. I don't, personally, beleive that someone needs to learn a skill on
someone else's timeline. So if I succeed at bringing him home to
homeschool (as in if I prove to myself and my husband that we can make it
on his salary!) I will focus on bringing the joy back into expressing
oneself on paper before I proceed to looking into writing.

That said, writing is an important skill. If he does wind up in first
grade next year, they do a lot of writing says DS's kindergarten teacher.
So if there was a way to encourage writing success, perhaps I should look
into it. I would not be surprised, though I don't know for certain, that
his dislike of writing is linked tohis lack of success. When he was
little, he was never into process as they are supposed to be in the
toddler and preschool years. He was always frustrated when he could not
draw a perfect representation of whatever he wanted. I think that
persists.

Anyway does anyone have anything to say about Handwriting Without Tears?
I saw reference to it in one of the homeschool curricula I was looking
at. I see mixed reviews on the amazon site. Anyone have any other
thougths about anything related to writing for me?

I'd have him evaluated for dysgraphia.

Very unlikely. The symptoms just aren''t the same. I really think he is
just not ready to write well.

If he has it,
then some occupational therapy might be in order. There's a
big difference between being just a bit behind the curve or
not liking writing very much and having a situation where
your brain and muscles are wired so as to make it particularly
difficult for you.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Thanks

Hi,

I just want to echo what others are saying, about getting your son
evaluated by an occupational therapist/child development center. You
can normally get a referal thru your family doctor. Many very bright
kids have graphomotorical delays. They can be even fine with their
fine motor skills (e.g. lego) but have difficulty when it comes to
writing. My son is extremely bright (Maths at least 3 grades above his
age, reading above grade) but he has difficulty with graphomotorical
skills. We had him evaluated at the child development center, and now
he has occupational therapy once a week at the center. The therapy is
a lot of fun and he loves going, lots of games to build his muscles
and also correcting the way he holds his pencil. He has always been
very good with fine actions like building Technic lego and he was
drawing with very good results but his technique was wrong.
Uncorrected this would have led to difficulty writing quickly or for
long periods of time. Efficient writing is a fairly fundamental skill.
The therapy is helping to relieve unnecessary frustration he would
have had at school, or whenever he would have needed to start writing.
I really advise you to have an evaluation done. The evaluation is
short and simple and if he has no problem, great, and if not then he
can get the help he needs.

You mentioned your family doctor evaluated him. Even very good family
doctors don't always catch these sort of issues, my middle son has
mild PDD (a high functioning autism spectrum disorder) and the (very
good) family doctor didn't notice it even when I specifically asked,
it was the EXPERTS at the child development who evaluated it
correctly.

I also want to mention that getting any problems evaluated and getting
appropriate therapy EARLY (especially with something like writing
which can get wrongly wired into the brain when done incorrectly) can
make the difference between a small easily fixable problem and an
extremely frustrating difficult problem. My son was nearly 6 when he
started OT and it was fairly easy to correct his technique, if we had
waited a couple of years it would have been much more difficult and he
would already be at a stage when he would be expected to write well.

Best wishes,
Helen

In article ,
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

My kids' pediatrician has ADHD out the wazoo ;-)
That's one of the reasons we see him--he understands
what the boys are dealing with at a visceral level.

So are your boys ADHD or just bright? I understand there is a significant
overlap in symptoms...

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

In article JVyIh.3643$d8.3368@trndny07, "Jeff" wrote:

It's sad that the schools have to have the right label to provide the right
services.

Not really. When there are finite resources, you need the labels.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

"Stephanie" wrote in message
news:PIxIh.374$8o1.277@trndny01...

"Welches" wrote in message
...

"Stephanie" wrote in message
news:1BkIh.67$vb.29@trndny04...

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
Stephanie wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
news Stephanie wrote:

The problem I have is the notion that a child need to learn to do
something that they are not ready to learn in order to make the
administration of a bloated system easier.
Do you know that?


We all have to go with what we know.

I assume for years that my eldest
was just a late bloomer. He wasn't. He had an innate issue
that got in the way of his writing, and it didn't magically
go away with age.


Luckily DS is 6 and in kindy. We have time.

I would give my eye teeth to have gotten him the
help he needed earlier. It would have made many things
easier.


You know what? You are making me rethink discussing this with teh doc
now. The one thing that just touched down in my head is the sequencing.
You know those sequencing cards that tell as story? You are supposed to
put them in order? He has always had a hard time withthose.
Don't take this as a "get" at your son but I'm wondering whether he
enjoys/can do jigsaws?


He used to love them and be very good at them. I probably have to get some
more challenging ones.

That's fine if he used to do them. Just you saying the sequencing thing
reminded me of the jigsaws. Having asked my mum she thought it was more
mathematical imaging that can be seen to be a problem if the child can't do
jigsaws.
Debbie

Chookie wrote:
In article ,
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

My kids' pediatrician has ADHD out the wazoo ;-)
That's one of the reasons we see him--he understands
what the boys are dealing with at a visceral level.

So are your boys ADHD or just bright? I understand there is a significant
overlap in symptoms...

Both ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

That's fine if he used to do them. Just you saying the sequencing thing
reminded me of the jigsaws. Having asked my mum she thought it was more
mathematical imaging that can be seen to be a problem if the child can't
do jigsaws.

That's interesting, my mum has always said I was a whizz at jigsaws and as
you know, I have a maths degree. My husband also started out in maths, so
you'd expect our kids to be the same, but both are really quite bad at them!
Another thing my mum has told me is that I was really bad at counting, which
you would have thought was a bad sign to be mathematically minding, but I
think it's more along the lines of a sequencing skill, apparently, it wasn't
just that I couldn't learn the order, but I didn't even accept that there
was an order, so in my mind counting to 10 was correct as long as I said all
the numbers! It will be interesting to see how my kids turn out, DS is
really strong verbally, but has no family background out of the realms of
science (of his grandparents, one was a GP, the others are a physics teacher
and 2 maths teachers). DD is a bit of a conundrum, still having less than 10
words at 21 months.

Anne

So are your boys ADHD or just bright? I understand there is a significant
overlap in symptoms...

That really made me chuckle, but I do know what you mean, I often wonder
what the conclusion would have been over DH had he ever been assessed, he's
clearly very bright, but was excluded from school on at least one occasion
and was close to being excluded from other schools he was sent too, if that
is purely a symptom of being bright, then it's a case of very bad parenting
and teaching, but if not, I wish I knew what it was, so I could watch out
for it in my own kids, so far so good, DS (3.75) is mischevious, but not
excessively so and so far teachers seem to fall in love with him, but I can
see things we'll have to watch out for, he has very little patience for
repeated tasks, particularly if it's something he can do. He's busy teaching
himself to write, but tends to form the letters moving upwards and to the
right (he's a lefty), rather than downwards and too the left, so I can see
fireworks if he continues this way and a teacher tries to correct it, at the
moment he will let me help him with one letter, then continue doing it his
own way!

Anne

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
His earlier pediatricians didn't clue in either,
even though I thought they were quite good at what they did.
Sad to say, but most look for kids who are doing poorly in
school as their indicator that there's something that needs
looking into. Very bright kids can compensate in many ways,
so they keep carrying on and finding a way to do well in
school, but it comes at a significant cost to them.

How very true. I've suspected DS has had a hearing problem for quite some
time. He's had a couple of hearing tests, but they were inconclusive due to
his age. He was screened about a year ago at the ped's office, which showed
a deficiency, but the ped failed to mention it to me. DS had a physical
this year, which also showed a deficiency, at which point the ped mentioned
it. The first thing the ped asked was how was DS doing in school. I said
he was doing well. The ped then said because he's doing well, his hearing
loss is nothing to worry about.

However, because I've been suspecting a hearing loss for years, I brought
him to the audiologist and ENT to fully check it out. This time, he was old
enough for the tests and they found him deficient in his left ear.
Coincidentally, that was the ear facing his teacher last trimester when he
was in trouble often for being distracted by the girl to his right side (his
good ear). He was never in trouble for distraction the trimester before
that, when his good ear faced the teacher. I asked him if he heard the
teacher when she talked and he said sometimes, he can't hear her. The ENT
doctor recommended surgery. So, if I had gone with the ped's advice, DS
would not have gotten the help that he needs.