OT religion and smacking

Chookie wrote in message ...

I notice you also haven't answered the question: how do you know that no-one
with access to your gun safe will ever become mentally unstable?

I know this wasn't directed to me, but I'll stick my nose in anyway.
:-)

You don't know that. There are no guarantees. You do what you can to
keep your family safe, and that includes doing a cost-benefit analysis
of the various risks.

You have a risk of danger to your family from outside intruders.
Depending on where you live, it could be high or low.

You have a risk of firearm accidents from children. The incidence of
this in the US is quite low (more small children die from ingesting
household poisons than from gunshots).

You have a risk that your spouse or kid will go off the deep end at
some point in the future and use the firearm on you or themselves or
other members of the family. I'm not sure of the risk, but I believe
it also to be fairly low.

My own belief is that even without guns, violence can and will happen,
even easily. One example is that guy in Japan who walked into a school
and stabbed and killed a bunch of kids. Other examples include folks
like Susan Smith who rolled her car into a lake, drowning her
children, and Andrea Yates who killed all five of her kids, all
without a gun. There was also some guy who drove his car into a semi,
killing himself and at least some of his kids over a custody dispute.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

Kate,

But in reality it reduced the availability of alcohol
available to young people, which thereby reduced drunk driving and
drunk driving deaths.

Do you have statistics to back this up? I fail to see how
passing a law will necessarily reduce the availability of alcohol to
young people who don't care about what the law is in the first
place, or they wouldn't be driving when drinking. It may possibly
make the alcohol more difficult to obtain, but this could be offset
by making it more attractive because it is illegal.

Marvin

Marvin L. Zinn
Reply to:
Using Virtual Access
Windows 2000 build 2600

In article ,
(Cathy Weeks) wrote:

You have a risk of danger to your family from outside intruders.
Depending on where you live, it could be high or low.

How exactly does having weapons in a locked safe help you when your house is
invaded anyway? And hasn't someone already asked this question, and received
no response?

You have a risk of firearm accidents from children. The incidence of
this in the US is quite low (more small children die from ingesting
household poisons than from gunshots).

You have a risk that your spouse or kid will go off the deep end at
some point in the future and use the firearm on you or themselves or
other members of the family. I'm not sure of the risk, but I believe
it also to be fairly low.

Funnily enough, I imagine the risk of firearm injuries and deaths would be
significantly lower in houses where no firearms are kept!

So far we have:

P(intruder) * P(getting to gun) * P (shooting intruder successfully)
must be greater than
P(gun accidents to family member) + P(gun murder of family member) + P(gun
suicide of family member)
to make gun ownership a good risk.

My own belief is that even without guns, violence can and will happen,
even easily.
examples snipped

I presume that you are asserting that the rate of violent crime in a society
will remain static whether guns are freely available or not. I disbelieve
this because, as I have already posted, our rate of "nutter" gun crime appears
to have dropped, without replacement with other kinds of "nutter" mass-murder.
This is partly because guns are not only a *quick* way to kill many people;
they allow you to kill at a distance. Go nuts with a gun and you can kill a
lot of people. Go nuts with a baseball bat and it's a different story.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Cathy Weeks) wrote:

You have a risk of danger to your family from outside intruders.
Depending on where you live, it could be high or low.

How exactly does having weapons in a locked safe help you when your house
is
invaded anyway? And hasn't someone already asked this question, and
received
no response?

*I* gave a response, and I'll give it again:

It takes me 30 seconds (tops) to get into my safe.

Do you think the police can show up in 30 seconds? If so, you've a better
police force than we have.

Of course, there's always the risk of waking up and finding an intruder
standing over you with weapon of choice, and in that case of course the
possession of a gun wouldn't help. But what if you wake to the sound of a
window being bashed in?

I receive a magazine called 'American Rifleman'. It has a page every month,
filled with articles clipped from newspapers. In every issue, every month,
there are 10-15 reported incidences of people who used firearms to defend
themselves - sometimes in their homes, sometimes in their businesses.
Sometimes they fire shots. Sometimes they don't. I suspect the number of
cases *not* printed is much higher.

The question then becomes: Did those people have a right to defend
themselves? You would seem to imply they did not. I bet every one of them
would disagree with you. Oh, and the police? They showed up later.

--angela

Chotii wrote:


"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Cathy Weeks) wrote:

You have a risk of danger to your family from outside intruders.
Depending on where you live, it could be high or low.

How exactly does having weapons in a locked safe help you when your house
is
invaded anyway? And hasn't someone already asked this question, and
received
no response?

*I* gave a response, and I'll give it again:

It takes me 30 seconds (tops) to get into my safe.

Do you have a gun safe in every room? I'm having a hard time imagining
being surprised by an intruder in my bedroom and somehow getting to the
downstairs den to the gun safe all that quickly and without the intruder
catching onto what you're doing.

Do you think the police can show up in 30 seconds? If so, you've a better
police force than we have.


No, but an intruder who is motivated to maim or kill can certainly do it
more quickly than 30 seconds.

Jeanne

"Chotii" wrote in message
.. .

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Cathy Weeks) wrote:

You have a risk of danger to your family from outside intruders.
Depending on where you live, it could be high or low.

How exactly does having weapons in a locked safe help you when your
house
is
invaded anyway? And hasn't someone already asked this question, and
received
no response?

*I* gave a response, and I'll give it again:

It takes me 30 seconds (tops) to get into my safe.

Do you think the police can show up in 30 seconds? If so, you've a better
police force than we have.

Of course, there's always the risk of waking up and finding an intruder
standing over you with weapon of choice, and in that case of course the
possession of a gun wouldn't help. But what if you wake to the sound of a
window being bashed in?

I receive a magazine called 'American Rifleman'. It has a page every
month,
filled with articles clipped from newspapers. In every issue, every
month,
there are 10-15 reported incidences of people who used firearms to defend
themselves - sometimes in their homes, sometimes in their businesses.
Sometimes they fire shots. Sometimes they don't. I suspect the number of
cases *not* printed is much higher.

The question then becomes: Did those people have a right to defend
themselves? You would seem to imply they did not. I bet every one of
them
would disagree with you. Oh, and the police? They showed up later.

--angela


2 years ago this month I was in Geotgia living in an apartment with my 2
kids. Some guy was on his cellphone walking back and forth in the grassy
area behind my building. First he was walking his dog, then he was just
chatting on the phone.
He did it so much that I closed my blinds, so I could talk on my phone in
peace. it felt like he was staying a little TOO close to MY apartment
windows.
Later, about 2 am, I was online in my bedroom and heard a noise. A very
small noise, like a keychain or something jingling. I was quiet and noticed
that it was my blinds moving, someone was pushing the window.
I told my friends online what was up and called 911. I also turned all the
lights on in my apartment, I think that scared the guy off. The cops came 20
min later,looked and claimed to see nada. The next am, I went out and saw
footprints AND a cigarette butt on my windowsill where the guy had tried to
pry my screen out. My apartment manageer guessed who the guy was based on
my talk of the dog walking and my giving details from his phone
conversation. She told the police officer who lived in the complex who also
told a friend of his who was a cop and patrolled the area. THEY told me to
get a gun and maybe even a sticker for my window saying I had a gun.
I had my husbands gun locked away, so I got it out and kept it in my room.
If I had been asleep there is no way the cops would have gotten there before
the guy got into my bedroom. I was very concerned.specially since this is
when the Elizabeth Smart case was in the news and also the other story about
the little girl abducted from her bedroom. Guns dont neccessarily cause
crime. He could have had a bat, a knife or something.

"Bruce and Jeanne" wrote in message
...
Chotii wrote:


"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Cathy Weeks) wrote:

You have a risk of danger to your family from outside intruders.
Depending on where you live, it could be high or low.

How exactly does having weapons in a locked safe help you when your
house
is
invaded anyway? And hasn't someone already asked this question, and
received
no response?

*I* gave a response, and I'll give it again:

It takes me 30 seconds (tops) to get into my safe.

Do you have a gun safe in every room? I'm having a hard time imagining
being surprised by an intruder in my bedroom and somehow getting to the
downstairs den to the gun safe all that quickly and without the intruder
catching onto what you're doing.

People I know who keep guns for protection keep them locked next to their
bed.
Someone tried to break into my bedroom, I then started keeping a gun near
the bed.


Do you think the police can show up in 30 seconds? If so, you've a
better
police force than we have.


No, but an intruder who is motivated to maim or kill can certainly do it
more quickly than 30 seconds.

Not if he isnt already in. If you hear an intruder trying to come in, or in
the process of entering, you can
get the gun and be waiting. IF the situation warrants use of deadly force,
then you will be ready.

In article ,
"Chotii" wrote:

It takes me 30 seconds (tops) to get into my safe.

Do you think the police can show up in 30 seconds? If so, you've a better
police force than we have.

No. But I think the intruder could.

Of course, there's always the risk of waking up and finding an intruder
standing over you with weapon of choice, and in that case of course the
possession of a gun wouldn't help. But what if you wake to the sound of a
window being bashed in?

In my country, thieves are usually opportunists. They go for empty houses
duing the day and take stuff that's easy to sell in the pub. Most are drug
addicts, but even the professionals prefer not to have the bother of
threatening people and tying them up -- they wait till you leave before
breaking in. The exception is houses owned by elderly ladies, who are all
thought to have money stashed under the mattress. An elderly friend of mine
was woken by a burglar who wanted to know where her money was.

Home invasions do occur here, but they are associated with protection rackets
or drug dealers. Ordinary people don't live in terror of home invasions.

My thoughts are that the scenario of
waking up and finding an intruder
standing over you with weapon of choice
would be more common than the noisy guy coming through the lounge room window.

I receive a magazine called 'American Rifleman'. It has a page every month,
filled with articles clipped from newspapers. In every issue, every month,
there are 10-15 reported incidences of people who used firearms to defend
themselves - sometimes in their homes, sometimes in their businesses.
Sometimes they fire shots. Sometimes they don't. I suspect the number of
cases *not* printed is much higher.

Why would you suspect that? How much space do they devote to people who have
blown their own heads off, I wonder?

The question then becomes: Did those people have a right to defend
themselves? You would seem to imply they did not.

Pardon? Where did I imply that?

My beef is that:
P(intruder) * P(getting to gun) * P (shooting intruder successfully)
must be greater than
P(gun accidents to family member) + P(gun murder of family member) + P(gun
suicide of family member)
to make gun ownership a good risk, and that I fear that the probability of a
family member becoming deranged/suicidal is rather higher than the probability
of the intruder scenario for most of us.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Life is like a cigarette -- smoke it to the butt." -- Harvie Krumpet

In article ,
"nina" wrote:

If I had been asleep there is no way the cops would have gotten there before
the guy got into my bedroom.

And if the gun was anywhere but under your pillow, it wouldn't have been much
use to you anyway -- unless you are a much lighter sleeper than me!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Life is like a cigarette -- smoke it to the butt." -- Harvie Krumpet

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"nina" wrote:

If I had been asleep there is no way the cops would have gotten there
before
the guy got into my bedroom.

And if the gun was anywhere but under your pillow, it wouldn't have been
much
use to you anyway -- unless you are a much lighter sleeper than me!

When my husband was single he kept his weapon loaded and in the nightstand
by the bed. He could have gotten it out and ready in less than 15 seconds.
(FWIW,he is a soldier). A locked drawer or gun may take a full 30 seconds to
access.
The sleep things isnt an issue. I havent slept lightly in over a decade due
to: pregnancy, new baby, cosleeping, single parenthood, having teenagers. I
HAVE to be able to wake up at the slightest noise to make sure all is well.