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  #1  
Old October 3rd 03, 03:02 PM
Nevermind
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Default , then

I'm sure many of you have encountered this problem: My 8 YO has a very
easy time with his 3rd grade work; so far, none of it is challenging
to him. However, on his homework, we see him making TONs of errors
that are clearly due to carelessness. They range from skipping whole
problems/lines of homework to making computation errors. I know the
computation errors are due to carelessness because if I simply mark
them wrong, he can immediately fix them with no help. It's like he
didn't really look at them the first time. He does work *very* fast.
The problem is especially bad in math, for some reason. If it's bad at
home, it must also be happening in school. I'm concerned about this
carelessness causing some bad grades on tests.

What have you done about this? Let some bad grades happen and
hopefully motivate the child to be more careful? Offer rewards for
homework done right the first time? But even if we used that approach,
I'd worry that in school, where the only reward comes later in the
form of good grades, he would still rush through work and be careless.
I have heard people blame carelessness on boredom, saying that when
their kids got challenging work, they started working harder and being
more careful. Makes sense to me, but I'm loathe to assume that in this
case, because math is my son's worst school subject (though I don't
believe he is *challenged* by his 3rd grade math; he just isn't as
advanced in it) but the one he makes the most errors on.

Thanks!

  #2  
Old October 3rd 03, 04:56 PM
Karen G
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Default , then

I had a professor in college who used to bug me about this issue. In
fact, I remember a test that he handed back to me to "look over one more
time."

In the first place, don't make a big deal out it. On the other hand,
why not make it more fun. Let him "grade" his paper with a red pen.
Overall, it's the teacher's right to grade the papers, so I would
encourage you to remove yourself from the process. The more involved
you are, the more your child needs you in the process of getting
homework done. Definitely let him get some bad grades and talk to him
about the cause and effect.

Karen G

  #3  
Old October 3rd 03, 05:55 PM
Rosalie B.
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Default , then

(Nevermind) wrote:

I'm sure many of you have encountered this problem: My 8 YO has a very
easy time with his 3rd grade work; so far, none of it is challenging
to him. However, on his homework, we see him making TONs of errors
that are clearly due to carelessness. They range from skipping whole
problems/lines of homework to making computation errors. I know the
computation errors are due to carelessness because if I simply mark
them wrong, he can immediately fix them with no help. It's like he
didn't really look at them the first time. He does work *very* fast.
The problem is especially bad in math, for some reason. If it's bad at
home, it must also be happening in school. I'm concerned about this
carelessness causing some bad grades on tests.


I had a hard time concentrating in math (and still do). It may be
that since it is harder for him, he wants to get through as soon as
possible.

What have you done about this? Let some bad grades happen and
hopefully motivate the child to be more careful? Offer rewards for
homework done right the first time? But even if we used that approach,
I'd worry that in school, where the only reward comes later in the
form of good grades, he would still rush through work and be careless.
I have heard people blame carelessness on boredom, saying that when
their kids got challenging work, they started working harder and being
more careful. Makes sense to me, but I'm loathe to assume that in this
case, because math is my son's worst school subject (though I don't
believe he is *challenged* by his 3rd grade math; he just isn't as
advanced in it) but the one he makes the most errors on.


I wouldn't worry about poor grades on tests in school. This is beyond
your ability to do anything about, therefore, IMHO you might as well
pick something else to worry about.

DD#2 would do SAT tests, and come back and say that she got bored in
the middle of it and just rushed through at the end, and she got
pretty good SAT scores - dd#3 told me the other day that she had done
the same thing. But there isn't anything that anyone can do (again
IMHO) to change the basic nature of the kid who doesn't like to sit
still and concentrate on tests.

One thing I would suggest for his homework is to look at it and count
the errors and not mark them wrong but just say "4 errors on this
page", and then he'd have to look at ALL the problems to correct the
errors rather than just look at the ones you've marked. So that will
make it less attractive to rush through.

My dd#2 had her son (who is in 4th grade this year) doing some kind of
extra math program last year which I don't remember the name of but
I'm sure somebody can tell you what it was. They did it because one
of their friends children was having extreme difficulty with math, so
the moms got together in the summer and all did this program together.
In any case it resulted in him being a good bit ahead of what they
were actually doing in his class, so the classwork was easier.

IIRC part of it involved how many problems that he could do correctly
in a specified period of time. That worked well for him because he
was very competitive even when he was competing with himself. Also he
liked being able to see that his skills were improving. YMMV.

The basic computation fact memorization problem can also be addressed
on the computer - the computer never gets tired of making random
problems of a specific type and keeping track of how long it takes to
do them and how many errors there are. And for that kind of skill -
perfect practice makes perfect.



grandma Rosalie

  #4  
Old October 3rd 03, 11:50 PM
David desJardins
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Default , then

Karen G writes:
Overall, it's the teacher's right to grade the papers, so I would
encourage you to remove yourself from the process. The more involved
you are, the more your child needs you in the process of getting
homework done. Definitely let him get some bad grades and talk to him
about the cause and effect.


I fundamentally object to this idea that education is something that
somehow is between teachers and children, and that parents have no place
in it, or that their role is somehow secondary. Indeed, I'd say that
this attitude is why a lot of children don't do better in school.

The biggest issue that I see is that, if your school is anywhere near
typical, the parent has far more time to address the child's problems
than the teacher does. The teacher might have well over 20 students;
most parents have only a few. Even if your teacher is phenomenally
talented, there are limits to what he or she can accomplish.

I also disagree with the whole idea that the "bad grades" are the
"effect" to be considered here. The goal of education is learning, not
grades. Grades are, at most, a measurement of learning (and often not
even that). If the only reason you can give your child to do better in
school is to get better grades, I think that's pretty poor support for
future academic achievement. And what happens when your child figures
out that it really makes zero difference what grades they get? (I
remember learning this for myself in the 7th grade, when I didn't bother
to do some assignments, got a bad grade on my report card, and I
suddenly realized, "So what," it didn't make any difference at all. So
much for grades as a motivator.)

What about doing the assignments better because they, themselves, have
value? Or, if the assignments really don't have value (not too
infrequently the case, I'm afraid), address that directly. The OP says
that the assignments are not challenging. I think that it's not the
least bit surprising that that leads to poor performance on them. I
think the child can see for himself that there is no point to them, and
the faster he gets through them, the sooner he can go do something fun.

The parent can try to get more challenging assignments. Or help the
child find ways to make the assignment more challenging. Or discuss
with the child how learning to be careful and thorough is important,
even if the assignments aren't challenging. I can think of a bunch of
different approaches. But doing nothing, except hoping that the threat
of "bad grades" will somehow motivate different behavior, sounds like a
recipe for failure, to me. As well as turning an above-grade-level
student into one who sees a lack of merit in education.

David desJardins

  #5  
Old October 3rd 03, 11:50 PM
David desJardins
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Default , then

"Nevermind" writes:
What have you done about this? Let some bad grades happen and
hopefully motivate the child to be more careful? Offer rewards for
homework done right the first time? But even if we used that approach,
I'd worry that in school, where the only reward comes later in the
form of good grades, he would still rush through work and be careless.


Arrgh. "Good grades" are not the reward for doing schoolwork. The
satisfaction of getting the right answer is the reward. Enjoying the
mental challenge is the reward. Learning something is the reward. Even
the approval of your parents and peers (if you have the right peers) can
be the reward.

I don't think you can really be successful in school unless you have
many much more important reasons to do schoolwork, than grades.

David desJardins

  #6  
Old October 4th 03, 01:21 AM
Jeff
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Default , then

I would share your concerns about the homework with your son's teacher and
see what he says. The three of you should work on this together.

Jeff


  #7  
Old October 4th 03, 01:52 AM
Karen G
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Default , then

Education is a family affair, but grading and the completion of
assignments should be between teachers and students. Part of learning
math, science, history, and grammar is learning responsibility. I
personally think that the increased involvement of parents in the
homework process factors into why kids don't do better in school. On
the outside, this might be a six of one/half dozen of the issue though.
Some parents create a good environment for personal responsibility where
kids discuss their homework with their parents and get help when needed,
but are completely self-motivated to do it. Other parents create
environments where children learn just as much, but the homework is a
parent/child activity. As long as the homework is getting done in a
positive "learning" environment where the child is understanding and
answering the questions, it probably doesn't make much difference beyond
personal choice. These are all of the good situations though. There
are situations where the child is bringing the homework home and just
writing down the answers that the parent supplies. This is obvious not
the degree of involvment that is appropriate, but it is happening.
Furthermore, when the homework is not within the capability of the
majority of children in the class, the teacher needs to know and make
changes (the same thing applies to tests). If the parents are buffering
the homework performance, hypothetically that problem would be less
obvious.

Going a bit further, if personal responsibility is the problem, I am not
sure that a parent can fix it. They can more easily recognize it, but
fixing it is more of a pass/fail exercise of "did you get it right or
did you get it wrong." Unless the child understands the problem and
wants to fix it, the problem remains the parent's problem or becomes a
learning roadblock long term.

What about doing the assignments better because they, themselves, have
value? Or, if the assignments really don't have value (not too
infrequently the case, I'm afraid), address that directly.


This is the key to the joy of learning. My husband is very interesting
to talk to because he enjoys learning about everything. I tend not to
be as interesting because I only like to learn about things that I am
interested in.

Karen G

  #8  
Old October 4th 03, 12:15 PM
Penny Gaines
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Default , then

Nevermind wrote in :
[snip]
What have you done about this? Let some bad grades happen and
hopefully motivate the child to be more careful? Offer rewards for
homework done right the first time? But even if we used that approach,
I'd worry that in school, where the only reward comes later in the
form of good grades, he would still rush through work and be careless.
I have heard people blame carelessness on boredom, saying that when
their kids got challenging work, they started working harder and being
more careful. Makes sense to me, but I'm loathe to assume that in this
case, because math is my son's worst school subject (though I don't
believe he is challenged by his 3rd grade math; he just isn't as
advanced in it) but the one he makes the most errors on.


This sounds very like me at school. I was good at maths, so I could
to rush through the problems and usually get them right. Of course I
would make the careless mistakes, as well. In early years, the most
effective 'punishment' was to make me go back and do it all again,
properly. Later on, when the work was harder, I had to be more careful
because I couldn't see the answer just from reading through the questions.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

  #9  
Old October 4th 03, 02:34 PM
Banty
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Default , then

In article , Karen G says...

Education is a family affair, but grading and the completion of
assignments should be between teachers and students. Part of learning
math, science, history, and grammar is learning responsibility. I
personally think that the increased involvement of parents in the
homework process factors into why kids don't do better in school.


::snip::

I think school is a kid's early encounters with the wider world, and
responsiblity in the wider world. IMO the parents need to set the home
environment, as you say in your post, but otherwise their roles is as a
facilitator and helper, and really should not have homework primarily a
parent-child activity. The teachers are professionals who know what and how to
teach. And the student's responsibilites are to himself and to the teacher
primarily.

I do think parents can and do get in the way by being to involved.


What about doing the assignments better because they, themselves, have
value? Or, if the assignments really don't have value (not too
infrequently the case, I'm afraid), address that directly.


This is the key to the joy of learning. My husband is very interesting
to talk to because he enjoys learning about everything. I tend not to
be as interesting because I only like to learn about things that I am
interested in.


Right. Some folks are process-oriented and tend more to learn to learn, others
are more goal-oriented and will go for the grade. It's not a personal deficit
to study for the grade rather than for the interest in the assignment - indeed
there will always be some assignments less interesting and/or valuable than
others. Getting these done too is part of learning responsibility in the wider
world.

They're not mutually exclusive anyway. My son has areas of interest where he
loves to learn, and in great detail, on his own for the joy of learning of it.
WWII history being his current fascination. But he is also strongly motivated
by getting a decent grade because he's internalized that he needs to perform and
deliver for his teacher. And that's a good thing.

Banty

  #10  
Old October 5th 03, 02:51 PM
Robyn Kozierok
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Default , then

In article ,
Karen G wrote:
Education is a family affair, but grading and the completion of
assignments should be between teachers and students.


I explicitly asked my oldest child's 3rd grade teacher how she felt
about the parents' role in homework. She asked that we look the
homework over and help our children with the parts, if any, they seemed
to have trouble with. She would of course try to do the same if the
work came in with errors, and on work done during the school day, but
she echoed David's feeling that parents have more one-on-one time with
their kids and can be more helpful in nipping small problems in the
bud. If there were ever a stiuation where I felt the teacher should be
made aware of the difficulty my child was having, I sent a note (or an
email). There is generally plenty of in-class work for the teacher to
discern any issues that requires her additional attention.

So... I might start by asking the teacher what approach s/he would
like you to take to the issue of carelessly completed homework. I
liked the idea of saying how many were wrong, but making the child
find them. It's good practice for checking your work on tests later.

--Robyn

 




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