My 3.4 yr old ds says NO to potty training

Mom2Max wrote:

Interestingly, we were reading a book last night (and yes I am a good
actress!) and saw a picture of a dancer...he loves to dance...and I
said, would you like to take dance lessons? And he said, 'yes'.

Just as an aside, choose carefully when looking for
a dance studio for boys. Some are really pathetic at dealing
with boys. While it probably doesn't matter if they only
take a couple of classes when they're very little, it's a
great boon to hit upon a good studio right away.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Apr 28, 8:18 am, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Mom2Max wrote:
Interestingly, we were reading a book last night (and yes I am a good
actress!) and saw a picture of a dancer...he loves to dance...and I
said, would you like to take dance lessons? And he said, 'yes'.

Just as an aside, choose carefully when looking for
a dance studio for boys. Some are really pathetic at dealing
with boys. While it probably doesn't matter if they only
take a couple of classes when they're very little, it's a
great boon to hit upon a good studio right away.

Best wishes,
Ericka

It's interesting you say that...in his nursery school they have 'after
school' meaning after their lunch bunch you have option 45 minute
segments of things each day...one of them is dancing taught by one of
the mothers. I thought it might be nice for him to try that with all
his friends just to see what he likes. I would have to imagine
schools would be more challenging because of what might be perceived
as them being weighted with more girls...so I will keep your
suggestions in mind because it is very important to see that there is
not just a stated equality, but in actual practice, as well.

Mom2Max wrote:
On Apr 28, 8:18 am, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Mom2Max wrote:
Interestingly, we were reading a book last night (and yes I am a good
actress!) and saw a picture of a dancer...he loves to dance...and I
said, would you like to take dance lessons? And he said, 'yes'.
Just as an aside, choose carefully when looking for
a dance studio for boys. Some are really pathetic at dealing
with boys. While it probably doesn't matter if they only
take a couple of classes when they're very little, it's a
great boon to hit upon a good studio right away.

It's interesting you say that...in his nursery school they have 'after
school' meaning after their lunch bunch you have option 45 minute
segments of things each day...one of them is dancing taught by one of
the mothers.

If it's your basic "music and movement" class, that's
not usually an issue. They're not really teaching them anything
that can mess things up down the road, and there aren't likely to
be any social issues.

I thought it might be nice for him to try that with all
his friends just to see what he likes.

I imagine it will probably be a blast. In my experience,
lots of little boys *love* to dance. It comes naturally to them.
We must stifle it in them as they grow older somehow! The little
ones are crazy dancing machines.

I would have to imagine
schools would be more challenging because of what might be perceived
as them being weighted with more girls...so I will keep your
suggestions in mind because it is very important to see that there is
not just a stated equality, but in actual practice, as well.

In all likelihood, you're not going to find "equality"
in most dance schools. There will be a zillion more girls
than boys, and that naturally has consequences. The big question
on the social side is how they manage that. The big question on
the technical side is whether they have someone who really knows
how to train boys properly. The last thing you need, if you've
actually got a boy who's interested in dancing, is a school that's
going to end up producing a dancer whose body moves as if he's
a girl because he hasn't been trained how to move as a boy.
Not to mention that boys just *do* different things than girls
for a lot of stuff. I heard one boy recently whose mother had
to raise a stink because his teacher actually thought it was
appropriate for him to be bouree'ing around with the girls.
Sheesh. It's true that much of the basic technique is the same
for girls and for boys, and lots and lots of male dancers start
out in a school where they're not really being served ideally
and they still manage to recover. Still, if you want to start
him at a dance school someday and you have a choice, it's nice
to find one that really is good for boys instead of having to
go through the grief of finding out the school isn't so good
for boys the hard way :-/ Sadly, that happens to a lot of boys
(most of whom probably just give up dance all together rather
than finding another school where they're better served).

Best wishes,
Ericka


Best wishes,
Ericka

On Apr 29, 6:04 pm, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Mom2Max wrote:
On Apr 28, 8:18 am, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Mom2Max wrote:
Interestingly, we were reading a book last night (and yes I am a good
actress!) and saw a picture of a dancer...he loves to dance...and I
said, would you like to take dance lessons? And he said, 'yes'.
Just as an aside, choose carefully when looking for
a dance studio for boys. Some are really pathetic at dealing
with boys. While it probably doesn't matter if they only
take a couple of classes when they're very little, it's a
great boon to hit upon a good studio right away.
It's interesting you say that...in his nursery school they have 'after
school' meaning after their lunch bunch you have option 45 minute
segments of things each day...one of them is dancing taught by one of
the mothers.

If it's your basic "music and movement" class, that's
not usually an issue. They're not really teaching them anything
that can mess things up down the road, and there aren't likely to
be any social issues.

I thought it might be nice for him to try that with all
his friends just to see what he likes.

I imagine it will probably be a blast. In my experience,
lots of little boys *love* to dance. It comes naturally to them.
We must stifle it in them as they grow older somehow! The little
ones are crazy dancing machines.

I would have to imagine
schools would be more challenging because of what might be perceived
as them being weighted with more girls...so I will keep your
suggestions in mind because it is very important to see that there is
not just a stated equality, but in actual practice, as well.

In all likelihood, you're not going to find "equality"
in most dance schools. There will be a zillion more girls
than boys, and that naturally has consequences. The big question
on the social side is how they manage that. The big question on
the technical side is whether they have someone who really knows
how to train boys properly. The last thing you need, if you've
actually got a boy who's interested in dancing, is a school that's
going to end up producing a dancer whose body moves as if he's
a girl because he hasn't been trained how to move as a boy.
Not to mention that boys just *do* different things than girls
for a lot of stuff. I heard one boy recently whose mother had
to raise a stink because his teacher actually thought it was
appropriate for him to be bouree'ing around with the girls.
Sheesh. It's true that much of the basic technique is the same
for girls and for boys, and lots and lots of male dancers start
out in a school where they're not really being served ideally
and they still manage to recover. Still, if you want to start
him at a dance school someday and you have a choice, it's nice
to find one that really is good for boys instead of having to
go through the grief of finding out the school isn't so good
for boys the hard way :-/ Sadly, that happens to a lot of boys
(most of whom probably just give up dance all together rather
than finding another school where they're better served).

Best wishes,
Ericka

Best wishes,
Ericka

Thanks Ericka...I didn't even think of the technical aspects.

On Apr 25, 10:30 am, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Mom2Max wrote:
My son has known exactly what he needs to do since 18 months. The
healthy curiosity, has done both on the potty, gets his rewards. Now
it is justu a major powerplay. We don't scream and yell. We just let
him know that it's his choice...BUT there are certain things he won't
be able to do if he chooses diapers. I show him underpants (even CARS
pullups, etc.) He says, that's OK. I'll wear underpants and pullups
but I'm going to pee and poop in them...all with a big smile. It's
total and complete knowing rebellion. He is intrigued with summer
camp and he knows he can't go to summer camp wearing diapers...but
otherwise, forget it. This morning he smiled and said he peed and
pooped in his diaper. I didn't say a word and changed him. When he
asked where his pullups were (because the sun was up) I told him he's
decided he's not ready for pullups. When he's ready to use them he'll
let me know. And then I left it alone. I'm very frustrated and I
know this is a popular thread with this group. Any and all
suggestions welcomed. I need him to be potty trained by July 9
because I NEED him to go to summer camp and they won't take him if he
isn't. Plus he'll be 3 1/2 (very, very bright child..no developmental
delays...)

He's got you over a barrel. This is really, really
important to you, and he knows it. That's too much pressure
for him, and he's going to resist with both feet. The backing
off thing only works if you *really* back off. He knows this
is really important to you, so it's the same as if you were
actively pushing.

How long does one back off for?

Not an issue for us (yet), I ask because our 3.5 yo nephew (will be 4
on Aug 1) refuses potty training. They accept it and don't push it at
all, and he's still making no motions to want to be potty trained. He
hates having a poopy diaper, but has no desire to use a toilet. In
fact, he insists he wants to stay a baby - he wants a bottle, tried to
use DD's carseat and play with her baby stuff....that 'I am a baby'
aspect I know has caused some issues for them. Part of me thinks it's
because he's smart enough to know he gets away with stuff because he's
the baby - his older brother always gets in trouble for stuff he does
because the older brother should know better (he's 6) and the little
one is 'just a baby.' I think the potty training is just falling in
line with this.

So how long does one wait til they need to make it an issue? 4? 5?
Obviously the kid needs to be potty trained by kindy - I don't know of
any that would take a diapered kid. He's in pre-K now, so I'd have
thought peer pressure would help, but not. It's not *my* issue, so I
stay out of it, but certainly it has DH and I thinking/preparing
should we be faced with it.

cjra wrote:
On Apr 25, 10:30 am, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Mom2Max wrote:
My son has known exactly what he needs to do since 18 months. The
healthy curiosity, has done both on the potty, gets his rewards. Now
it is justu a major powerplay. We don't scream and yell. We just let
him know that it's his choice...BUT there are certain things he won't
be able to do if he chooses diapers. I show him underpants (even CARS
pullups, etc.) He says, that's OK. I'll wear underpants and pullups
but I'm going to pee and poop in them...all with a big smile. It's
total and complete knowing rebellion. He is intrigued with summer
camp and he knows he can't go to summer camp wearing diapers...but
otherwise, forget it. This morning he smiled and said he peed and
pooped in his diaper. I didn't say a word and changed him. When he
asked where his pullups were (because the sun was up) I told him he's
decided he's not ready for pullups. When he's ready to use them he'll
let me know. And then I left it alone. I'm very frustrated and I
know this is a popular thread with this group. Any and all
suggestions welcomed. I need him to be potty trained by July 9
because I NEED him to go to summer camp and they won't take him if he
isn't. Plus he'll be 3 1/2 (very, very bright child..no developmental
delays...)
He's got you over a barrel. This is really, really
important to you, and he knows it. That's too much pressure
for him, and he's going to resist with both feet. The backing
off thing only works if you *really* back off. He knows this
is really important to you, so it's the same as if you were
actively pushing.

How long does one back off for?

Not an issue for us (yet), I ask because our 3.5 yo nephew (will be 4
on Aug 1) refuses potty training. They accept it and don't push it at
all, and he's still making no motions to want to be potty trained. He
hates having a poopy diaper, but has no desire to use a toilet. In
fact, he insists he wants to stay a baby - he wants a bottle, tried to
use DD's carseat and play with her baby stuff....that 'I am a baby'
aspect I know has caused some issues for them. Part of me thinks it's
because he's smart enough to know he gets away with stuff because he's
the baby - his older brother always gets in trouble for stuff he does
because the older brother should know better (he's 6) and the little
one is 'just a baby.' I think the potty training is just falling in
line with this.

So how long does one wait til they need to make it an issue? 4? 5?
Obviously the kid needs to be potty trained by kindy - I don't know of
any that would take a diapered kid. He's in pre-K now, so I'd have
thought peer pressure would help, but not. It's not *my* issue, so I
stay out of it, but certainly it has DH and I thinking/preparing
should we be faced with it.

I think that in order to have an effective solution,
you have to identify the problem ;-) Backing off is a solution
to the problem of a power struggle. The assumption underlying
that is that the child is ready, willing, and able to potty
train and the only thing standing in his or her way is feeling
pressured to potty train or wanting to lock horns withe the
adults for some reason. It's also an effective solution if
the problem is that the adults have unrealistic expectations
(i.e., the child really isn't ready to potty train for some
reason).
The problem here may be something else entirely.
If so, a different tactic may make sense. With DS1, we
got to a point where we just went cold turkey with him
shortly before his 4th birthday (partly because he was
having UTI issues and partly because it was clear he was
had complete control of the situation and simply didn't
want to commit to potty training). The doctor set a date,
we made a big deal of it (had a little family party with
cake and ice cream and prezzies like new underwear and
toilet targets and that sort of thing), and on that date
the diapers were done during the day. Now, since we were
correct in believing that he was totally ready and able to
potty train, he didn't have any accidents and it worked
just fine for us. In a different situation with a different
root cause, it might not have worked as well. I think
ultimately, you just have to diagnose the situation and
act appropriately.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Mom2Max wrote:

Thanks Ericka...I didn't even think of the technical aspects.

Well, one doesn't when looking for classes for a
little boy. You hardly even imagine that they'll still
be dancing five or ten years down the line! ;-) That's
why I pipe up when I hear someone thinking about putting
a boy in dance classes, since we've been down that road
a ways ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

I've heard of parents setting a date with their child. 4.5 year old
simply selects a date he wants to start potty training and when that
date arrives thats when he starts. Gives a kid a little ownership to
the process. (obviously its a 'You pick a day, or I'll pick one for
you' situation)

"Grahame" wrote in message
u...
If this is a power struggle and you let him win this, he will rule the
house. So I have to disagree, if you know he is capable and is just
unwilling, set boundries. let him know he CAN choose to pee and poo, but
you CAN and WILL choose the punishment. He will soon realise he can get
more of what he wants if he cooperates.


PUNISHING for the processing of bowels is a bad idea. Bowel retention and
obstruction are No Fun! They are a WHOLE LOT less fun than changing diapers.
BTDT and would definitely take a pass if I were you.

"Anne Rogers" wrote in message
. ..
If this is a power struggle and you let him win this, he will rule the
house. So I have to disagree, if you know he is capable and is just
unwilling, set boundries. let him know he CAN choose to pee and poo, but
you CAN and WILL choose the punishment. He will soon realise he can get
more of what he wants if he cooperates.

but ignoring the issue of potty training, but continuing to change regular
diapers without a fuss, nothing interesting, nothing exciting, or
whatever, isn't letting him win, it's not that he wants to wear diapers,
it's that he doesn't want to do what the adult wants, which happens to be
not wearing diapers, the converse does not apply.

The advice from many respected sources when an older child refuses to
potty train is to ignore the issue - my expectation would be that after a
while of ignoring the issue he'd likely start doing it himself.

Anne



I did once suceessfully train an older child, well over 4, by simply having
the diapers disappear. If he wet, he changed himself. No words. No rebukes.
It was my feeling that this child's situation was such that he was never
going to feel capable of doign it unless he was given some real serious
motivation to try. And he was scared of trying. I was fearful that my
instincts were mucked, but luckily that was not the case.