Little boy circumcision - argument with dh

Hi everyone,

I'm pregnant with my first, and I'm too early yet to know the gender.
However, if it is a little boy I am adamant that I don't want him
circumcised; I don't want my newborn to have to go through that level
of pain for unnecessary surgery. Unfortunately, my husband is adamant
that if we have a boy, he wants him to be.

What are everyone's thoughts on this? Who has the most authority in a
pregnancy? Could my husband over-ride my wishes when I'm recovering
from labor and have a little boy circumcised? (He tells me that
"you'll be comatised", and won't know anything about it)
Your input either way is appreciated,

Lucy

anyone4tea wrote:

Hi everyone,

I'm pregnant with my first, and I'm too early yet to know the gender.
However, if it is a little boy I am adamant that I don't want him
circumcised; I don't want my newborn to have to go through that level
of pain for unnecessary surgery. Unfortunately, my husband is adamant
that if we have a boy, he wants him to be.

What are everyone's thoughts on this? Who has the most authority in a
pregnancy? Could my husband over-ride my wishes when I'm recovering
from labor and have a little boy circumcised? (He tells me that
"you'll be comatised", and won't know anything about it)
Your input either way is appreciated,

Lucy

Hi Lucy,

In late Nov. there was a long discussion thread about this topic. I
don't know what news client program you're using, but if you search by
keyword you should be able to find it.

DH was all for it before we really discussed about this matter, but I
was having reservations. However, after reading the opinions in that
thread and doing some homework, we finally agreed that we won't do it.

Best,
Min
baby boy, EDD 3/28/05

Thank you Min, I'll go and search for it.

Lucy

DO WOMEN DECIDE?

Lucy's husband wants their son's penis ripped and sliced.

Lucy does not.

Can Lucy's husband have their baby's penis ripped and sliced behind her
back?

Lucy "anyone4tea" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi everyone,

I'm pregnant with my first, and I'm too early yet to know the gender.
However, if it is a little boy I am adamant that I don't want him
circumcised; I don't want my newborn to have to go through that level
of pain for unnecessary surgery. Unfortunately, my husband is adamant
that if we have a boy, he wants him to be.

What are everyone's thoughts on this? Who has the most authority in a
pregnancy? Could my husband over-ride my wishes when I'm recovering
from labor and have a little boy circumcised? (He tells me that
"you'll be comatised", and won't know anything about it)
Your input either way is appreciated,


Lucy,

Like your husband, I was adamant.

The mother of my eldest son was adamantly opposed.

What an argument it was!

She held firm - and I'm glad she did.

My son's penis was not ripped and sliced.

Thanks to his mom, my son has the OPTION of having his penis ripped and
sliced.

Most humans don't exercise that option.

Todd

PS1 Regarding your husband counting on you being unconscious after birth
("you'll be comatised"), it is likely that BABIES being "comatised" (by
birth anesthesia) is what gave rise to the American medical religion's myth
that babies can't feel pain - which is likely why your husband and me - and
most American males - have mutilated penises. (The mutilated penis looks
QUITE normal to us.)

PS2 Who has the most authority - the man or the woman? I don't know. I
think men and women will argue about that for eons to come. In ancient
times in Judaism, GOD had the most authority - and when Moses failed to
circumcise his son - God suddenly appeared and threatened to kill Moses - so
his wife Zipporah quickly did the job and saved the day.

KEY POINT: Zipporah likely left most of the foreskin on her son's penis.

The ancient Jewish ritual commanded by God leaves most of the foreskin on
the penis.

Here is a recent post on the subject.


BRIS VS. ROUTINE INFANT CIRCUMCISION

Observant Jews sincerely believe partial penile amputation is the "primal
commandment" of their God.

Because of this, I don't think ritual infant circumcision - Jewish or
American medical - will ever end.

It might be possible to end the TOTAL foreskin amputation if enough parents
are informed.

So I write...

Kingoff wrote:

I've been to many a bris...I'll wager I've (reluctantly)
witnessed more circumcisions than you have or ever will. I've never seen
anything like what you describe.


I am referring primarily to ROUTINE infant circumcision which causes INFANT
SCREAMS.

Nurses and MDs call it "barbaric." See the quotes below.

Some infants gasp and go unconscious.

I have heard that anesthesia is now being used in more and more routine
infant circumcisions; but one cannot render mass MD child abuse legal by
performing it under anesthesia.

BRIS...

The ancient Jewish ritual reportedly commanded by God leaves most of the
foreskin on the penis.

Ancient rabbis (mortals) reportedly changed to total amputation when ancient
Jews began stretching their foreskins to appear uncircumcised...

According to The Jewish Encyclopedia [1901]:

"In order to prevent the obliteration of the "seal of the
covenant"...the Rabbis, probably after the war of Bar Kokba (see Yeb.
l.c.; Gen. R. xivi.), instituted the 'peri'ah' (the laying bare of the
glans), without which circumcision was declared to be of no value (Shab.
xxx. 6)." [See Circumcision in Singer I (and 400 others, eds.) The Jewish
Encyclopedia. New York: Ktav 1901.]

"Thenceforward [total foreskin amputation - the laying bare of the
glans] was the mark of Jewish loyalty." [See Circumcision in Singer I
(and 400 others, eds.), 1901]

The modern Jewish ritual is TOTAL foreskin amputation - just like the
American medical religion's most frequent surgical behavior.

I am in favor of an exemption from the child abuse laws for the ancient
Jewish ritual that leaves most of the foreskin on the penis.

I recently noted that observant Jews are OBLIGATED to amputate infant
foreskin tips - and they are obligated to do it themselves if a ritual
circumciser/mohel cannot be found.

It is fortunate that the ancient Jewish ritual commanded by God is simple
and swift...

See Infant penises: Rip and slice vs. Slice and rip
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/3022

TOTAL foreskin amputation though should end - whether it is performed by
Jewish circumcisers (mohelim) or circumcisers in the American medical
religion (MDs).

"One-half to one-third of the skin on the...penile shaft is sliced
off." http://www.infocirc.org/MensHlth.htm (paraphrasing Ronald Goldman,
PhD, author of Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma)
"The average circumcision cuts off what would grow into
about 12 square inches of sexually sensitive skin."
http://www.infocirc.org/MensHlth.htm (quoting Ronald Goldman, PhD, author of
Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma)

IMPORTANT QUESTION: Why would religious authorities advocate amputation of
far more foreskin than the Jewish God reportedly commanded?

Further regarding the ROUTINE total amputation performed by the American
medical religion...

ROUTINE INFANT CIRCUMCISION...

Here's the relevant history - again...

In late 1987, I called attention to the spectacle of the American Academy of
Pediatrics/AAP perpetuating the phony "babies can't feel pain" neurology
that MDs had long-used to "inform" parents deciding whether to have their
babies' foreskins amputated.

I called for an immediate end to the mass MD child abuse for profit scheme
and for religious exemptions for Jews.

(I am still in favor of a religious exemption for Jews - for the ancient
tradition that leaves most of the foreskin on the penis. See Pediatrician
'ethics' (Attn: Gesundheit et al.)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/2908.)

In the January 1988 issue of Pediatrics, the AAP came out against ALL
religious exemptions.

In the February 1988 issue of Pediatrics, the AAP came out for anonymity of
PERPETRATORS of child abuse.

In March 1988, the California Medical Association/CMA ignored its own
Scientific Board and instantly created "an effective public health measure"
out of "no medical indications" routine infant circumcision.

By voice vote of the CMA House of Delegates, routine infant circumcision
suddenly
prevented transmission of HIV/AIDS - even though - just months previous -
the CMA's own Scientific Board rejected that very proposal.

Weeks later, the American Academy Pediatrics apppointed a Task Force on
Circumcision that elicited a year of pro-circumcision headlines that were so
compelling that when the Task Force finally decided that there still weren't
any medical indications - pediatricians had to be informed that AAP had not
changed its position.

Of course, the 1989 report of the AAP Task Force on Circumcision failed to
mention that the CMA had declared the mass child abuse "an effective public
health measure" after the CMA's own Scientific Board rejected that proposal.

To their credit, American pediatricians ultimately didn't abuse science -
but they did take action that perpetuated (and perpetuates) mass child abuse
in America.

American pediatricians who perform routine infant circumcisions violate
their own ethics every day:

"[T]he pediatrician's responsibilities to his or her patient exist
independent of parental desires...

"...A[n infant's screaming writhing and bleeding obviously constitutes
the - TDG] patient's reluctance or refusal to assent [and - TDG]
should...carry considerable weight when the proposed intervention is not
essential to his or her welfare
and/or can be deferred without substantial risk...

"[T]hose who care for children need to provide for measures to solicit
assent and to attend to possible abuses of 'raw' power over children when
ethical conflicts occur."
AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Informed Consent, Parental Permission, and Assent in Pediatric
Practice(RE9510)
Pediatrics Volume 95, Number 2 February, 1995, p. 314-317
http://www.aap.org/policy/00662.html

INFANT SCREAMS...

Here two nurses discussed the screams...

"After years of strapping babies down for this brutal procedure and
listening to their screams, we couldn't take it any longer." [Sperlich
BK, Conant M. Am J Nurs (Jun)1994:16. http://www.cirp.org/nrc/]

Here's a nurse calling it "barbaric"...

"Nursing alert...[N]urses must consider their participation in a
surgical procedure that involves no anesthesia to be a barbaric
practice." (p. 205) Donna L. Wong's Essentials of
Pediatric Nursing [1997]

Here's an MD calling it "barbaric"...

"[S]till all too often barbaric...[M.D.s]...would never allow older children
or adults to be subjected to such practices, nor would they submit to it
themselves..." [Veteran circumcision cheerleader Colonel Thomas E. Wiswell,
MD in article in the April 24, 1997 New England Journal of
Medicine]


In 1980, one pediatrician wrote:

"[Routine infant circumcision] constitutes child abuse...an acknowledged
hazard to health." [Michael Katz, MD: Letter. AJDC, 1980]

In 1986, another wrote:

"What a terrible indictment...guilty of failing those for whom we have
chosen to be advocates." [Finkel KC: The failure to report child abuse.
AJDC, 1986;140:329-330]

It is simply wrong to rip and slice infant penises - and MDs know it...

FUNDAMENTAL TRUTH: MDs are powerful cultural authorities who can legally
commit felonies.

See SLAPP: How MDs get away with grisly felonies: Censor Bob Dubin, DC and
the Schroeder-SLAPP-censored chirolist
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/2959

Again quoting Kingoff...

I've been to many a bris...I'll wager I've (reluctantly)
witnessed more circumcisions than you have or ever will. I've never seen
anything like what you describe.


TOTAL amputation should end.

Nurses and MDs have called it "barbaric." See INFANT SCREAMS above.

One cannot render child abuse legal by performing it under anesthesia.

Again, I am in favor of a religious exemption from the child abuse laws for
the ancient Jewish ritual that leaves most of the foreskin on the infant's
penis.

Whereas Kingoff "reluctantly" witnessed partial penile amputation rituals...

Many observant Jews regard the ritual as a joyous occasion - something to
LOOK FORWARD TO...

Observant Jews sincerely believe the partial penile amputation is the
"primal commandment" of their God.

Because of this, I don't think ritual infant circumcision - Jewish or
American medical - will ever end.

It might be possible to end the TOTAL amputation if enough parents are
informed.

Todd

Dr. Gastaldo

"anyone4tea" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi everyone,

I'm pregnant with my first, and I'm too early yet to know the gender.
However, if it is a little boy I am adamant that I don't want him
circumcised; I don't want my newborn to have to go through that level
of pain for unnecessary surgery. Unfortunately, my husband is adamant
that if we have a boy, he wants him to be.

What are everyone's thoughts on this? Who has the most authority in a
pregnancy? Could my husband over-ride my wishes when I'm recovering
from labor and have a little boy circumcised? (He tells me that
"you'll be comatised", and won't know anything about it)

I think seeing a circumcision will convince a great many people not to have
it done to their child. Some will, of course, do it anyway. But education is
a very powerful tool. I recommend going to this web page:
http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/video.html

If your husband still wishes to have such a thing done to your son after
observing it for himself (he *would* go with his baby to be with him during
the procedure, right? He wouldn't hand him off and let him undergo the
surgery alone, since he assumes you'd be "comatose"?)....then I don't know
what to tell you. However, telling your doctor that you, as the mother, do
NOT consent, that you will NOT allow your refusal to be overridden without
your written consent to the contrary....ought to go a long way. You and your
baby are your doctor's patients - your husband is not the patient, and I
think your consent should override. This will also put your doctor on alert
if your husband tries to bully it through. Let the doctor tell him off.

--angela

"anyone4tea" wrote in message
oups.com...

What are everyone's thoughts on this? Who has the most authority in a
pregnancy? Could my husband over-ride my wishes when I'm recovering
from labor and have a little boy circumcised? (He tells me that
"you'll be comatised", and won't know anything about it)
Your input either way is appreciated,

Thems fightin words!
Seriously if my DH said this I'd consider banning him from the birth
(ultimately the mother has the authority). This is probably not the option
you want to take so I'd be inclined to give him as much info on the
negatives of circumcision that you can find.
I would also think that any Dr would need the signed consent of both parents
before they'd undertake such an operation
..... unlike 30 years ago when my friend's mother asked the Dr to tie her
tubes while performing a Csection on her 3rd child ... only to be told that
she'd have to get the permission of her husband first!
Amanda

--
DD 15th August 2002
1 tiny angel Nov 2003
DS 20th August 2004

If my DH had it done while I was recovering from labour, I'd kill him with
my own two hands. But while he did used to think circumcision was normal as
he'd been 'done', I don't think he'd have ever gone behind my back like
that.
I think your DH needs to watch a circumcision video. If he sees it and still
wants it done, get him a psych evaluation.

--
Amy,
Mum to Carlos born sleeping 20/11/02,
& Ana born screaming 30/06/04
email: barton . souto @ clear . net . nz (join the dots!)
http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/c/carlos2002/


"anyone4tea" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi everyone,

I'm pregnant with my first, and I'm too early yet to know the gender.
However, if it is a little boy I am adamant that I don't want him
circumcised; I don't want my newborn to have to go through that level
of pain for unnecessary surgery. Unfortunately, my husband is adamant
that if we have a boy, he wants him to be.

What are everyone's thoughts on this? Who has the most authority in a
pregnancy? Could my husband over-ride my wishes when I'm recovering
from labor and have a little boy circumcised? (He tells me that
"you'll be comatised", and won't know anything about it)
Your input either way is appreciated,

Lucy

On 12 Dec 2004 08:41:45 -0800, "anyone4tea"
scribbled:

Hi everyone,

I'm pregnant with my first, and I'm too early yet to know the gender.
However, if it is a little boy I am adamant that I don't want him
circumcised; I don't want my newborn to have to go through that level
of pain for unnecessary surgery. Unfortunately, my husband is adamant
that if we have a boy, he wants him to be.

What are everyone's thoughts on this? Who has the most authority in a
pregnancy? Could my husband over-ride my wishes when I'm recovering
from labor and have a little boy circumcised? (He tells me that
"you'll be comatised", and won't know anything about it)
Your input either way is appreciated,

Well, barring the fact that there's trouble in paradise if he'd
override you while you're "comatised"....
Ask him *why* he thinks it should be done. My dh initially wanted to,
if we had a boy, and I didn't. I'd done quite a bit of research and
saved links people had posted here. After dh looked at the sites (he
had no desire to watch the video!), he agreed it wouldn't be best.
My OB also told me that it wouldn't be done *in* the hospital, that if
we wanted it done it had to be scheduled at their office. They don't
do very many of them at all, since more people are choosing not to.
So if you can, get your OB to tell your dh that it has to be done as
an in-office procedure, and he has to be present for the entire thing.
Hopefully that will change his mind!

Good luck,
Nan

"anyone4tea" wrote in message
oups.com...
(He tells me that
"you'll be comatised", and won't know anything about it)

Ha ha. I wouldn't let him make medical decisions for *you*, either.
Not until he gets a little more info.

Um -- you win because what he wants to do is elective, "cosmetic", body
modification surgery.

Your sons can pick when they are old enough.

-- Dagny

"anyone4tea" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi everyone,

I'm pregnant with my first, and I'm too early yet to know the gender.
However, if it is a little boy I am adamant that I don't want him
circumcised; I don't want my newborn to have to go through that level
of pain for unnecessary surgery. Unfortunately, my husband is adamant
that if we have a boy, he wants him to be.

What are everyone's thoughts on this? Who has the most authority in a
pregnancy? Could my husband over-ride my wishes when I'm recovering
from labor and have a little boy circumcised? (He tells me that
"you'll be comatised", and won't know anything about it)
Your input either way is appreciated,



We are in the same situation. I will show my husband the information I have
regarding circumcision and let him decide.